The Doctrines Of Grace

[PrincetonGuy]

Indeed you are. You quoted Scripture then proceeded to explain that what it really means is that God is in heaven pleading with sinners to repent, that He is unable to make anyone repent. That is dishonoring to God.

Psalms 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power...

Youre better off just quoting the Bible and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit than to suggest God is at the whim of His creation. I cannot think of anything that robs God of more glory than to suggest His will is at the mercy of the will of men, men who cannot even will away a cold or flu, much less will themselves born again. Good grief.

Gen. 1:26. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29. Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30. and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.
31. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (NASB, 1995)

I do not believe that God ever intended these words to be interpreted as teaching that the man He created was such a creature that he could be forced, against his will, to repent. All through the scriptures, we find God, through His prophets, His Son Christ Jesus, and the writers of the New Testament, pleading with men to repent and to be saved, only to see most of them rejecting His most gracious offer of salvation. God, by His sovereign will, created His most noble creation with a free will to love Him and serve Him, or to hate Him and reject Him. Throughout the course of history, we find multitudes of men and women, boys and girls, choosing to love God and to serve Him in the face of the most horrible manners of persecution and torture, bringing glory to God that extends beyond the glory found in the expanse of the universe. The fact that multitudes of others have made a different choice in no way detracts from the sovereign decision of God to create man as He did, with a free will.

 

[mlqurgw]

Gen. 1:26. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29. Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30. and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.
31. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (NASB, 1995)

I do not believe that God ever intended these words to be interpreted as teaching that the man He created was such a creature that he could be forced, against his will, to repent. All through the scriptures, we find God, through His prophets, His Son Christ Jesus, and the writers of the New Testament, pleading with men to repent and to be saved, only to see most of them rejecting His most gracious offer of salvation. God, by His sovereign will, created His most noble creation with a free will to love Him and serve Him, or to hate Him and reject Him. Throughout the course of history, we find multitudes of men and women, boys and girls, choosing to love God and to serve Him in the face of the most horrible manners of persecution and torture, bringing glory to God that extends beyond the glory found in the expanse of the universe. The fact that multitudes of others have made a different choice in no way detracts from the sovereign decision of God to create man as He did, with a free will.

For a supposed scholar and teacher you ought to know better than to build a straw man that you can easily tear down. Calvinists do not claim or believe that God forces anyone against his will as you so cleverly said. You ought to know that. Calvinists believe God changes the will. Since you are willing to lower yourself to such depths in order to accuse why should we ever take you seriously again?

 

[PrincetonGuy]

For a supposed scholar and teacher you ought to know better than to build a straw man that you can easily tear down. Calvinists do not claim or believe that God forces anyone against his will as you so cleverly said. You ought to know that. Calvinists believe God changes the will. Since you are willing to lower yourself to such depths in order to accuse why should we ever take you seriously again?

Please read my post more carefully; I was not refuting Calvin or any of the early Reformers; I was refuting the words of a single, specific individual, thefivesolas.

 

[mlqurgw]

Please read my post more carefully; I was not refuting Calvin or any of the early Reformers; I was refuting the words of a single, specific individual, thefivesolas.

And he said nothing about God forcing against the will. So my statements stands.

 

[TimRout]

For a supposed scholar and teacher you ought to know better than to build a straw man that you can easily tear down. Calvinists do not claim or believe that God forces anyone against his will as you so cleverly said. You ought to know that. Calvinists believe God changes the will. Since you are willing to lower yourself to such depths in order to accuse why should we ever take you seriously again?

One might also ask where in Scripture God has declared this supposed sovereign decree, giving libertarian freedom unto man? And if, as our friend suggests, there is biblical evidence for rare occasions when God suspends human liberty, then our friend has no logical basis upon which to assert his own freedom; for all he knows, God is overriding his will as we speak. Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

 

[PrincetonGuy]

One might also ask where in Scripture God has declared this supposed sovereign decree, giving libertarian freedom unto man? And if, as our friend suggests, there is biblical evidence for rare occasions when God suspends human liberty, then our friend has no logical basis upon which to assert his own freedom; for all he knows, God is overriding his will as we speak. Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

My dear readers,

God has not “declared” that He created man with a free will; He has illustrated the fact throughout the Scriptures in which we find multitudes, including most of the Jewish people, choosing to disobey God and refusing His gracious gift of salvation. As I have posted and Tim Rout has observed in my posts, we do find in the Scriptures two instances in which the Scriptures say that God intervened and altered the heart of individuals, thereby influencing their will,

Prov. 21:1. The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Ex. 9:12. And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses. (NASB, 1995)

In the first instance, no details at all are provided; in the second instance, Pharaoh's heart was hardened. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find it said that God ever softened the hearts of anyone so that they would necessarily believe the Gospel. On the contrary, the Scriptures saith thus,

Deut. 30:19. “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
20. by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Joshua 24: 14. “Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.” (NASB, 1995)

There is not the slightest hint in these passages of Scripture that suggest that the persons being addressed, a multitude of persons, had anything other than a free will to choose between loving God and serving Him, or setting Him aside and serving other gods. Are we to formulate our soteriology on the basis of what God did in the hearts of two individuals in Old Testament times; or are we to formulate our soteriology on the basis of the Scriptures as a whole in which we find the prophets, Jesus, and the New Testament writers pleading with their audience to repent and believe, a pleading that makes no sense whatsoever unless the audience had the freedom to respond positively to it if they so chose. And indeed, some did choose to respond to it positively, and others chose not to.

The Scriptures are not inconsistent and neither is my interpretation of them; the Scriptures present to us what is the norm, and I am interpreting the Scriptures to teach what is the norm—man has a free will. Yes, the Scriptures mention two exceptions, and I acknowledge them as exceptions, exceptions that must be evaluated and understood on the basis of the context in which they appear.

 

[mlqurgw]

My dear readers,

God has not “declared” that He created man with a free will; He has illustrated the fact throughout the Scriptures in which we find multitudes, including most of the Jewish people, choosing to disobey God and refusing His gracious gift of salvation. As I have posted and Tim Rout has observed in my posts, we do find in the Scriptures two instances in which the Scriptures say that God intervened and altered the heart of individuals, thereby influencing their will,

Prov. 21:1. The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Ex. 9:12. And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses. (NASB, 1995)

In the first instance, no details at all are provided; in the second instance, Pharaoh's heart was hardened. Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find it said that God ever softened the hearts of anyone so that they would necessarily believe the Gospel. On the contrary, the Scriptures saith thus,

Deut. 30:19. “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
20. by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Joshua 24: 14. “Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.” (NASB, 1995)

There is not the slightest hint in these passages of Scripture that suggest that the persons being addressed, a multitude of persons, had anything other than a free will to choose between loving God and serving Him, or setting Him aside and serving other gods. Are we to formulate our soteriology on the basis of what God did in the hearts of two individuals in Old Testament times; or are we to formulate our soteriology on the basis of the Scriptures as a whole in which we find the prophets, Jesus, and the New Testament writers pleading with their audience to repent and believe, a pleading that makes no sense whatsoever unless the audience had the freedom to respond positively to it if they so chose. And indeed, some did choose to respond to it positively, and others chose not to.

The Scriptures are not inconsistent and neither is my interpretation of them; the Scriptures present to us what is the norm, and I am interpreting the Scriptures to teach what is the norm—man has a free will. Yes, the Scriptures mention two exceptions, and I acknowledge them as exceptions, exceptions that must be evaluated and understood on the basis of the context in which they appear.

Those "exceptions" are outstanding examples given us by the Spirit and must be interpreted according to what they say in their context and concerning Pharaoh as Paul interpreted it. The first is very clear in its intent. It is using a definite to teach an indefinite. If the King's heart is in the hands of the Lord everyone else's must be also. As far as Pharaoh all we need do is look to Rom. 9. Paul interprets why God hardened Pharaoh's heart. He does so in very plain language that can only be misunderstood by those who oppose the truth of God.

 

[the particular baptist]

Paul interprets why God hardened Pharaoh's heart. He does so in very plain language that can only be misunderstood by those who oppose the truth of God.

Amen, preach it !

 

[TimRout]

Nowhere in the Scriptures do we find it said that God ever softened the hearts of anyone so that they would necessarily believe the Gospel.

I am sorry friend, but I must disagree. Consider this passage:

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances." [Ez. 36:26-27/NASB]

Here, the heart of flesh is contrasted with the heart of stone. Stone is hard. Flesh is soft. A careful examination of the entire passage demonstrates that nowhere does God indicate or imply His saving activities are predicated on the people's "free will". You can find a more thorough discussion of Ezekiel 36 HERE.

Free will is the functional foundation of Arminian theology. Since every example text you have cited in support of free will can be otherwise interpreted in a hermeneutically consistent manner, and since you have no decreetive text to support the objective existence of free will to begin with, then your argument is ultimately unfounded.

Furthermore, citing free will as the reason a person comes to faith in Christ is meaningless. If redemption is potentially available to all, and God does not act in violation of most people's freedom, then there must be some reason why one believes and another does not. Free will (if it exists) provides the capacity to choose, but never a motive for choosing. At the end of the day, if a person's motive for choosing Christ is something other than the sovereign regenerating action of the Holy Spirit, then there must be something in the individual -- some personal merit or quality -- that compels him to believe. And that, my friend, is NOT the gospel.

 

[Vince53]

Why DID God harden Pharaoh's heart?

Pharaoh had already committed mass murder among God's people and had worsened the burden of their slavery. He was not an innocent victim of God's wrath.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Exodus 7:3 "And I will harden Pharoah's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt."

With each plague, Pharoah allowed terrible suffering of the Egyptian people, yet he refused to release the Israelites. God was demonstrating his divine power to His people, with his supernatural ability to defeat even any ruler of this world, including Pharoah. God does everything according to His purpose.

 

[TimRout]

Why DID God harden Pharaoh's heart?

Pharaoh had already committed mass murder among God's people and had worsened the burden of their slavery. He was not an innocent victim of God's wrath.

The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' " [Ex. 4:21-23/NIV]

"You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it." [Ex. 7:2-5/NIV]

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now. Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every man and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.' " [Ex. 9:12-19/NIV]

God created Pharaoh for a purpose, and that purpose was to become the canvas of God's wrath upon which Yahweh would show forth His unsurpassed greatness. Did the exodus involve saving the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery? Sure. But the exodus wasn't ABOUT the Israelites. It was about the magnificence of their God.

Calvinists are often accused of making too big a deal of God's sovereignty. May I suggest that such is an impossible task, since He is eminently worthy of every bit of honor and glory we could bestow upon Him, and even this falls pitifully short of His incalculable majesty.

 

[Vince53]

A few things about Pharaoh:

Nowhere does the Bible teach that Pharaoh was an innocent man, forced by God to sin.

Two different Hebrew words are used for Pharaoh's hardened heart. One refers to "courage." Despite his evil, Pharaoh might have given in out of fear, without repentance, and God didn't want that to happen.

The other word refers to cruelty. God withdrew "the grace of God that brings salvation," and the Holy Spirit stopped restraining Pharaoh from sin. Pharaoh reaped what he sowed, corrupting his flesh by his cruelty, and God, after bearing Pharaoh's wickedness with much long-suffering, turned Pharaoh's heart into what his flesh already was. But Pharaoh had been a cruel man long before God hardened his heart, and he brought this on himself by his own wickedness.

 

[JacobHall86]

Noone is innocent. Noone. All of us deserve Gods wrath. When we read the Old Testament we should not see it as God being a bully, but instead thank God that he hasnt destroyed us all.

You saying pharoah was not an innocent man in the manner you do leads me to believe that you think some people are innocent. Thats a dangerous position to hold, if you do hold it.

 

[TimRout]

A few things about Pharaoh:

Nowhere does the Bible teach that Pharaoh was an innocent man, forced by God to sin.

Vince, I'm going to assume that you simply do not understand the Calvinist position. You are aware, I hope, that Calvinists never argue that God forced Pharaoh (or anyone else) to be evil. All human beings are by nature totally depraved. Your employment of the word "forced" is fallacious.

Two different Hebrew words are used for Pharaoh's hardened heart. One refers to "courage." Despite his evil, Pharaoh might have given in out of fear, without repentance, and God didn't want that to happen.

Interesting.

The other word refers to cruelty. God withdrew "the grace of God that brings salvation," and the Holy Spirit stopped restraining Pharaoh from sin. Pharaoh reaped what he sowed, corrupting his flesh by his cruelty, and God, after bearing Pharaoh's wickedness with much long-suffering, turned Pharaoh's heart into what his flesh already was. But Pharaoh had been a cruel man long before God hardened his heart, and he brought this on himself by his own wickedness.

I half agree with you.

Though I do not believe God ever extended saving grace to Pharaoh, I agree that the mechanism by which God hardened Pharaoh's heart was passive. That is, God did not cause Pharaoh to sin, but He withdrew His restraining hand, such that Pharaoh acted in keeping with his own intrinsic desires.

I notice your citation of Titus 2:11 (in red). If you recall, I have already exegeted that text HERE, and explained why it speaks only of the elect. If you're planning to apply the verse to Pharaoh, don't you think it might be a good idea to deal with my argument first?

 

[Hammster]

I agree. My point in doing all of this isn't to win debate points, beat people over the head with Calvinism, or even win them to "the dark side". What I would like to happen is for them to at least accurately represent our views, then if they still disagree, we are at least arguing about the same thing. It just seems that we can ever do that because Calvinists must first defeat the misconceptions before we can even get to a meaningful discussion.

 

[TimRout]

I agree. My point in doing all of this isn't to win debate points, beat people over the head with Calvinism, or even win them to "the dark side". What I would like to happen is for them to at least accurately represent our views, then if they still disagree, we are at least arguing about the same thing. It just seems that we can ever do that because Calvinists must first defeat the misconceptions before we can even get to a meaningful discussion.

For sure!

If there's an upside to their approach, I suppose it's that straw man arguments are ultimately self-defeating. Those who take the time to carefully examine the clear presentations we have been making, can (by God's mercy) come to understand the doctrines of grace rightly. I am thrilled to see how effectively our Calvinist brothers and sisters have been contributing to this thread, and never imagined it would grow into such a large and useful package.

It is my hope that, as we seek to defend sovereign grace, we will be careful to display this grace to those who would oppose, misrepresent, and even mock our theology.

 

[Hammster]

Amen.

 

[Vince53]

Having seen that irrestiible grace in not Biblical, and that God really does want all men to be saved, we come to the question: Did Jesus die for all men? Or did He only die for some men?

John 1:29 ¶The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[JacobHall86]

Vince, Why are all men not saved?

Does God want all men to be saved and is powerless to do so?

Are you a Universalist that will say All men will be saved?

Which is it?