The Doctrines Of Grace

[the particular baptist]

I posted the historic Baptist confessions to prove that Unconditional Election is indeed Baptist and has been since Baptists called themselves Baptists.






Here are some wonderful quotes on the big U


"The good pleasure of God is an act of the divine will freely and effectively determining all things." - William Ames



"In whatever God wills He is universally effectual; he is not hindered or frustrated in obtaining what He wills. For if he should properly will anything and not attain it he would not be wholly perfect and blessed." - William Ames 1576-1633


"If the foreknowledge of God is eternal, it is necessary that the decree upon which it is founded should also be eternal...All things were decreed of God by an eternal and unchangeable counsel; hence they cannot but take place in the appointed time; otherwise the counsel of God would be changed, which the Scriptures declare to be impossible, Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:9." - Francis Turretin 1623-1687


"Let us then ascribe the whole work of grace to the pleasure of God's Will. God did not choose us because we were worthy, but by choosing us He makes us worthy."
- Thomas Watson 1620-1686


"It is absurd to think that anything in us could have the least influence upon our election. Some say that God did foresee that such persons would believe, and therefore did choose them; so they would make the business of salvation to depend upon something in us. Whereas God does not choose us FOR faith, but TO faith. "He hath chosen us, that we should be holy," (Ephesians 1:4), not because we would be holy, but that we might be holy."
- Thomas Watson 1620-1686

 

[Berean1]

Can the doctrines of grace be demonstrated unequivocally from the Scriptures alone?

Now then...not to be piggish about it, but I would dearly love a calm, scholarly, intelligent discussion of the Scriptures to result here. If we start going off the rails, you won't need to wait for the mods to shut us down; I'll request a thread closure myself. Many thanks, and may the discussion be God honoring.

Why don't you state your scriptural support of the doctrines of Grace and I'll tell you whether I agree. As for "from scriptures alone". Well, I don't know if there would be much point in trying to demonstrate them from elsewhere.
Anyway...divulge please.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Why don't you state your scriptural support of the doctrines of Grace and I'll tell you whether I agree. As for "from scriptures alone". Well, I don't know if there would be much point in trying to demonstrate them from elsewhere.
Anyway...divulge please.

Did you read the entire thread???

Welcome to CF by the way.

 

[TimRout]

Why don't you state your scriptural support of the doctrines of Grace and I'll tell you whether I agree. As for "from scriptures alone". Well, I don't know if there would be much point in trying to demonstrate them from elsewhere.
Anyway...divulge please.

Hi Berean1, and welcome to CF. I see you're new here, so perhaps you are unfamiliar with this type of thread. My name is Tim and I'm the originator of this thread.

Given that not all Baptists are Calvinists, and that the "Doctrines Of Grace" often raise the temperature around here, I thought it might be helpful to create a thread where Calvinist Baptists could present and defend the biblical basis for their beliefs, while leaving room for non-Calvinist Baptists to present opposing views. I gather from your tone that you are not a Calvinist. I would invite you, therefore, to select a doctrinal subject in keeping with your theology and present your case. Or if you wish, make intelligent, courteous commentary on another member's post.

I notice from reading your other posts that you are a fan of the King James Bible. Perhaps you would like to have a go at the doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy? I don't think anyone's touched that yet, and inerrancy underpins every other Christian doctrine.

Incidentally, because there are liberal Baptists who sometimes participate in this forum and do not recognize the Bible as their only source of theological information, it is necessary to specify that one's case is to be made from Scripture alone.

Again, welcome to CF. I hope you find your time here meaningful.

 

[TimRout]

I wrote a paper on inerrancy in May of 2008. You can find it HERE. Though the Doctrine Of Scripture is not traditionally included in our present discussion, it is certainly relevant.

 

[Berean1]

Hello, and thanks for the greeting. You are right I'm not sold on Calvinism. I do believe in the foreknowledge of God. I think a believer's brain could work overtime on these things. I can only say the most prolific writer on election, was also, probably, the greatest evangelist of them all...and no, he was not selective in his preaching. My opinion. We are not called to have the foreknowledge of God...we are only called to share the gospel. I do believe that the Spirit has to draw a nonbeliever to Him first...but I believe that God wants all men to be drawn to Him. John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
2 Peter 3:9 ¶The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
So, the question is... If God does everything in a predestined fashion...why doesn't He just choose them...seeing as how He is not willing that any should perish, but all come to repentance.
1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
As for examples of Pharoah, the earth in the time of Noah, and many other examples. I think you will find...that God always gave them a CHANCE to repent. Jacob...Esau. Didn't Esau reject his birthright...before...God rejected him.
Where I get upset with predestination, is when believers think that God 'FLAT OUT, REJECTS SOMEONE...WITHOUT EVEN GIVING THEM A CHANCE'. That I do not believe.
I realize there are many scriptures on election. There are also many scriptures on...unless you believe (the invitation). I just don't believe it's a marble game where God says...I like that one...that's a pretty one...Oh, I don't like that one....I'm going to cast that one into hell.
I think that is a totally incorrect view of election.
I also do not happen to believe in eternal security...although I was taught it. There are many warnings in the Bible about falling away. (Apostasy). Yes, this does relate to predestination. They having once believed. If God chose them to believe and they couldn't withdraw from that choosing... why the admonition to keep pure...
2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (Paul stated this as a definite possibility).
There are also many other scripture on that topic, which all relates to the aspect of (negating so to speak...the choosing of God).
Finally, the ability to use our will after being a Christian isn't much different than our ability to use our will before. We have the ability to reject Christ even now...after we are believers. Yes, the Father does know all that are His. He has foreknowledge. I don't.
I'm sure your answers will be pretty much similar to what has been written already.
Lastly, KJV unerring? Well, I don't know if I believe that. I do treat it as such though. There are some uses of words that are out of date now. I do trust it as an adequate source, and don't go looking for it's flaws.
I also think the biggest mistake of modern day exegesis is using Hebrew and Greek which most of the users are not in the least qualified to use.
Thus, worse errors occur. KJV...47 Hebrew and Greek SCHOLARS for 7 years. I'm satisfied. It's as good as I need. I want scripture...not pick your favorite greek definition.
Those are my views. Sure that I went off thread a dozen times.

 

[TimRout]

Those are my views. Sure that I went off thread a dozen times.

Thank-you for your input. I appreciate your taking the time to share your views. And no, you have by no means gone off topic. Since this thread is dedicated to answering specific questions about God's grace, and since you are not a Calvinist, perhaps it would be helpful if I asked a question or two in order to steer the conversation a bit. With your gracious permission....

1. Where in Scripture has God decreed free will unto man?

2. If a CF member has received formal training in Hebrew and Greek, would you still object to his using the languages in his arguments?

 

[mlqurgw]

TOTAL DEPRAVITY​

As we begin this study of the Scriptural doctrines that we call the Doctrines of Grace it is important that we carefully define what we mean in each doctrine to ensure that there be no misunderstanding. If I simply speak of total depravity without defining what I mean by it folks can run with every thing imaginable that they feel fits. When that happens we find that we may be using the same words and phrases but meaning something entirely different by them. So I will begin by defining what the doctrine of total depravity is.
Total depravity is the teaching that man by the Fall is totally affected in all of his nature by sin. Every aspect of the character and nature of all the children of Adam has been affected by sin. Our motives, our desires, our very reason for living is affected by sin. Every thought, every act, every desire and every motive it tainted with sin. That certainly doesn’t mean that we actually act on every impulse to sin or that we all are as bad as we could be. What it means is that even the good that man does by nature is sinful because he does it as a sinner. Certainly man does good in this world but they do it for the wrong reasons. By man’s standard they are good works but according to God’s standard they are sin. I may have compassion on the suffering but if I help it is motivated essentially by a desire to feel better about myself or to get a pat on the back by others. Even worse I may be doing it to earn God’s blessing. Total depravity doesn’t mean that man is as bad as he can be but that he is evil in his heart which is the core of his being. Everything about him is tainted with sin. So now does the Bible actually teach the doctrine of total depravity? Notice I didn’t say will it support it but does it teach it.
I have a green marker sitting on my desk ready to mark every place that God speaks of man in his natural state as doing good or being good. In all my years of Bible study I have no green marks in my Bible. Lets look at a few passages of Scripture and see how God describes man. We will begin in Rom. 3: 9-18


(Rom 3:9) What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Paul is now beginning to show that his description of man by nature applies to all. What follows is the inspired picture of all men’s nature and heart. It describes how far sin has corrupted all of Adam’s seed.

(Rom 3:10) as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
No one meets God’s requirements. No one is pure in heart and mind. No one does that which pleases God. Not even one.

(Rom 3:11) no one understands; no one seeks for God.
The mind is darkened along with the heart. The things of God are darkness and cannot be seen. Our natural ideas of God are all wrong and our natural views of ourselves are deceptions and lies. We simply don’t know who we are or who God is and what is worse we don’t care to know. No one seeks for God. We are so bound up in our sin that we don’t even seek God. We don’t think we need Him. We don’t want Him and we certainly will not bow to Him. See 1Cor. 2:14
(Rom 3:12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
The whole of humanity, Christ excepted, have turned aside from God. We have become worthless to God. Our sin has so separated us from God that He counts us as the small dust of the balance, that which isn’t even swept off before weighing, that which is given no consideration. Isa. 40:15 Not only is there no one who does good but there is no good in us. The Lord Jesus Christ made this point very well in Matt. 19:17 when He told the rich young ruler that there is none good but God. Our very best is nothing but evil in the sight of God.
(Rom 3:13) "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
We kill with our words and lie openly and continually. The things we speak are like poison that destroys.
(Rom 3:14) "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
Gossip and hateful talk is what we usually speak.
(Rom 3:15) "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Were it not for the fear of society’s punishment we would easily take life in anger.
(Rom 3:16) in their paths are ruin and misery,
If it serves us we would bring about the ruin and cause misery to others to enrich ourselves.
(Rom 3:17) and the way of peace they have not known."
We are never really at peace with each other but are ready to fight at the drop of a hat.
(Rom 3:18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Here is the kicker, we do not fear God. We have no respect for Him. We do not honor Him. We do not tremble at His word. We do not fear His judgment. The reason for that is we do not know Him and we do not want to know Him. Such is the state of man by nature. Sin has so permeated and infatuated us that we drink it in like water. Job 15:16 Our every thought and every deed is sin. Our very heart is corrupt and out of it comes every evil that man does. Matt. 15:19.
Lets look at another passage that speaks to the issue of total depravity: Jer. 17”9
(Jer 17:9) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
Here we have by the inspiration of God the Spirit a very definitive statement concerning the heart of man. The heart here isn’t that muscle in the chest that pumps blood but the core of our being. It is what makes us what we are, our nature or essence. What does it say concerning our heart? It is deceitful above all things. It is a deceiver more than anything else. Nothing can compare to it. It makes us think that good is evil and evil is good. It deceives us into thinking we are inherently good rather than inherently evil. It is desperately sick. The malady of the heart is incurable. It cannot be remedied by any medicine or potion. It cannot be cured by resolute determination or might of will. The only remedy is a new heart.
(Jer 17:10) "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."
In light of the previous verse this ought to strike fear in the very depths of our beings. If our hearts are as evil as the Spirit tells us it is then there is no hope in ourselves. God not only declares His knowledge of even the secret things in our heart but says He will be righteous when He judges. Since this is true where do we turn? Our only hope is to fall at the feet of the Judge of all the Earth begging mercy. Perhaps He will be merciful. Like that leper who came to the Master in Matt. 8:2 and fell at His feet worshipping Him saying Lord if you will you can make me clean. He recognized it was up to the Lord to be merciful and simply asked for it. Might we also hear what the Lord said to this poor leper, “I will be thou clean.”
One more verse that shows that the doctrine of total depravity is the teaching of Scripture. Eph. 2:1
(Eph 2:1) And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Paul is refffering to the promise that God made to Adam when he sinned in the Garden. You will find it in Gen. 2:17. God promised Adam that he would die in the day he ate of the fruit of the forbidden tree. Yet Adam lived to be 930 years old. Did God lie? By no means. The very moment that Adam took that forbidden fruit from Eve and ate it he died. He lost all spiritual communion with God and became separated from God. He no longer had life in him but death. He no longer had light in him but darkness. His death was so real that he hid himself and then tried to blame God for his sin. That is total depravity.
I could list many verses of the Scriptures that show the depth and grip of sin in us. I could point you to Rom. 6 where Paul says we are slaves to sin or I could point out that the very best of those written about is Scripture were sinners. But I hope you get the point by now.

 

[Berean1]

Thank-you for your input. I appreciate your taking the time to share your views. And no, you have by no means gone off topic. Since this thread is dedicated to answering specific questions about God's grace, and since you are not a Calvinist, perhaps it would be helpful if I asked a question or two in order to steer the conversation a bit. With your gracious permission....

1. Where in Scripture has God decreed free will unto man?

2. If a CF member has received formal training in Hebrew and Greek, would you still object to his using the languages in his arguments?

Answer to 2. first. I really don't want to go checking a whole bunch of and Hebrew and Greek out to see if the other person is right in their doctrine. The other thing is... what are the odds, that one person...even an expert in Hebrew or Greek, will make a mistake...compared to 47 scholars that are checking each others work.
I just want some good cross-referencing.
Answer to 1. Certainly...we are all under sin...depraved...Remember, just prior to the cross...if I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto me. There are other scriptures to show God works on the heart of man.
To be short and cute about it though. Where has God decreed free will unto man...about 10,000 times in the Bible...."unless you believe, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...except you believe..."ETC. If all was the work of God...and no part man's. There would be no need for preaching, teaching, repenting, believing, warning about apostasy...and so on...and so on. Is this still a Glory to God. Of course. It is His plan of Redemption. It is our privilege from God to be able to say Yes...or No.
Even Paul on the road to Damascus, was still left with a choice. If God only forced His will...where would the Glory be. He has created creatures that can actually respond...with love. No robotics about it. An amazing thing.
Don't know if you are married and have children... but don't you find it amazing every time a child comes up to their mother or father...with no impetus...and says...Daddy, I love you. I think that is far more marvelous, than having a child, that you have trained, to say what you tell them.
There see...I said Praise the Lord...and He didn't even make me.
P.S. I can appreciate that some believers want to prove their diligence in studying from 16 different sources. I just don't trust a lot of those sources. Some of them were written by Methodists, Anglicans, even heretics. Not slamming other denominations, but they all have their slant.
I just trust my KJV and am happy that I get truth from it. It's the Spirit that, in the end, has to show a believer the truth...it witnesses with your spirit. Well, if we're in tune at all.
That's the way I think about it.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

It's all about context.

I have come to the conclusion that, and by no means is this based on any posters in this thread...but in general after hard study, the Doctrines of Grace are a much deeper concept for people than just the average bible believin, church goin' and God lovin' christian. My own wife is the perfect example here. She loves reading and learning scripture...but doesn't have one iota of intention of learning "deeper theological concepts". Which is fine.
To some people they(the Doctrines of Grace) just don't matter as a point of subject.
To some like us...they are all important regarding the essence of learning biblical theology.
Some people see "free will" in the bible a LOT, others don't...it's not there and can only be proven by proof-texting, and it's sad that there are actual denominations out there the base their entire existence on badly proof-texed verses...but it's not practical at this point to prove that it's not anymore. Just my opinion.
Noone actually listens and studies things anymore(many claim too, but they don't in reality)...they just "hold fast to their belief systems" regardless of what's been stated, clarified and proven as Truth!

My rule is this...the ante-nicen church fathers had it going on in regards to doctrines and interpretation of the flow of the bible...so what they wrote about things...in my book...is valid. The reformers come a close second in this....that's my stance.



I hope this is taken the way it was meant to be taken.

 

[TimRout]

Thank-you for your responses. They are quite revealing and they raise several additional questions. With your permission, I would like to present a few for your consideration.

Answer to 2. first. I really don't want to go checking a whole bunch of and Hebrew and Greek out to see if the other person is right in their doctrine. The other thing is... what are the odds, that one person...even an expert in Hebrew or Greek, will make a mistake...compared to 47 scholars that are checking each others work.
I just want some good cross-referencing.

Thank-you. I now understand your position more clearly.

Answer to 1. Certainly...we are all under sin...depraved...Remember, just prior to the cross...if I be lifted up I will draw ALL men unto me. There are other scriptures to show God works on the heart of man.

I take it, then, that in your theology "all men" must be a reference to all people exhaustively, and not simply all the members of a group (such as the elect)?

To be short and cute about it though. Where has God decreed free will unto man...about 10,000 times in the Bible...."unless you believe, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ...except you believe..."

Allow me to be more clear with my question, because I'm afraid your response does not address the issue I hoped to raise. Where in the Scriptures does God say anything to the effect of, "I hereby decree that man shall have free will"?

ETC. If all was the work of God...and no part man's. There would be no need for preaching, teaching, repenting, believing, warning about apostasy...and so on...and so on. Is this still a Glory to God. Of course. It is His plan of Redemption. It is our privilege from God to be able to say Yes...or No.

Is it your view, then, that the gospel involves some degree of human effort in order to be efficacious?

Even Paul on the road to Damascus, was still left with a choice. If God only forced His will...where would the Glory be.

What then do you make of passages like Galatians 1:15-17?

"But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus." [NASB]

He has created creatures that can actually respond...with love. No robotics about it. An amazing thing.

Do you believe that Christians will be free to rebel against God and reject His love once they're in heaven?

P.S. I can appreciate that some believers want to prove their diligence in studying from 16 different sources. I just don't trust a lot of those sources. Some of them were written by Methodists, Anglicans, even heretics. Not slamming other denominations, but they all have their slant. I just trust my KJV and am happy that I get truth from it. It's the Spirit that, in the end, has to show a believer the truth...it witnesses with your spirit. Well, if we're in tune at all.

In your view, is the Holy Spirit incapable of speaking to a person who is not volitionally "in tune"?

That's the way I think about it.

 

[mlqurgw]

As am aside Tim I too am partial to the KJV. As far as the Greek and Hebrew go they are very useful tools but have never actually answered any sticky theological questions. The Greek and Hebrew are as much subject to interpretation as the English. While I may use the Greek, since I have never studied Hebrew, in my study and preperation I don't use it in either my sermons or my writings. Arguments from the Greek are as pointless as arguments from the English.

 

[TimRout]

Arguments from the Greek are as pointless as arguments from the English.

Forgive me brother, but I must respectfully disagree. For example, if one did not argue from the Greek in Romans 8:29, one could never hope to disprove the error of passive foreknowledge. Only by identifying προέγνω as an active verb is one able to make the case that God's foreknowledge is that which sovereignly establishes His relationship with the elect.

 

[DeaconDean]

Forgive me brother, but I must respectfully disagree. For example, if one did not argue from the Greek in Romans 8:29, one could never hope to disprove the error of passive foreknowledge. Only by identifying προέγνω as an active verb is one able to make the case that God's foreknowledge is that which sovereignly establishes His relationship with the elect.

I have to agree.

There are certain passages in the NT where the KJV is weak in its emphasis.

The original Greek word(s) add that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[atcfisherman]

I have to agree.

There are certain passages in the NT where the KJV is weak in its emphasis.

If we truly believe that the bible is God's holy infallable Word, then it isn't weak in it's emphasis. It is exactally what God wanted us to read and understand all without man made interpretations. Just a thought!

 

[TimRout]

If we truly believe that the bible is God's holy infallable Word, then it isn't weak in it's emphasis. It is exactally what God wanted us to read and understand all without man made interpretations. Just a thought!

I suppose it might be helpful to ask: Do you believe the KJV to be the only preserved, inerrant Word of God in English?

 

[DeaconDean]

If we truly believe that the bible is God's holy infallable Word, then it isn't weak in it's emphasis. It is exactally what God wanted us to read and understand all without man made interpretations. Just a thought!

Here again, the KJV, or any other version you can think of, are another person, or persons, interpretation of the Greek.

And then again, there are a few Greek words that do not have an English equivalant, so the KJV translators used words that were close.

Like it has been said, any version you pick up today are the products of men, their intrepertation of the Greek.

Can you tell me without a doubt that the translators were "inspired" by God?

Ther Greek and Hebrew are valuable tools to help us to see if the version translated it correctly.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[mlqurgw]

Forgive me brother, but I must respectfully disagree. For example, if one did not argue from the Greek in Romans 8:29, one could never hope to disprove the error of passive foreknowledge. Only by identifying προέγνω as an active verb is one able to make the case that God's foreknowledge is that which sovereignly establishes His relationship with the elect.

Lets take this to another thread and I will answer there. I do not want to derail this one.

 

[atcfisherman]

I suppose it might be helpful to ask: Do you believe the KJV to be the only preserved, inerrant Word of God in English?

I trust that God will not let His Word go void. I trust that He will make sure His true Word isn't "watered down." God just didn't inspire each writer of the bible, but HE made sure that as the bible was translated into another races language that the true meaning was stilled kept. Again, I believe the bible is the infallable WORD OF GOD. If one says it is only the KJV and that other language translations after that are "watered down" or not correct, then who's to say that the KJV is the "correct one?" Why not each person learn greek and hebrew?

Again, I believe that the bible is the infallable WORD OF GOD because HE will make sure it will not change. The scriptures even say that the earth will pass away but HIS WORD will stand for ever. WHY? B/C HE will make sure it dosn't.

 

[TimRout]

I trust that God will not let His Word go void. I trust that He will make sure His true Word isn't "watered down." God just didn't inspire each writer of the bible, but HE made sure that as the bible was translated into another races language that the true meaning was stilled kept. Again, I believe the bible is the infallable WORD OF GOD. If one says it is only the KJV and that other language translations after that are "watered down" or not correct, then who's to say that the KJV is the "correct one?" Why not each person learn greek and hebrew?

Again, I believe that the bible is the infallable WORD OF GOD because HE will make sure it will not change. The scriptures even say that the earth will pass away but HIS WORD will stand for ever. WHY? B/C HE will make sure it dosn't.

Thank-you for clarifying my brother. Life can become quickly uncomfortable when debating with a King James Onlyist, so it seemed relevant to ask.

I realize you're busy, but should you have a few minutes, might you be able to address some of the other questions I asked in THIS post? It will help me better understand your hermeneutic.