The doctrine of hell

[BobRyan]

I think we agree that God loves the World - both the wicked and the just and that He is "drawing all mankind to himself" John 12:32.

Christ is the "Atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" 1john 2:2.

And yet Christ speaks of the "Unpardonable sin" in Matt 12 just as John does in 1John 5 - where John even says not to pray for those who are guilty of it.

in Romans 9 Paul speaks of "hardening" of the heart.

In Gal 5:4 "you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from Grace".

So the idea that the lost can "go some place" that is "very very bad" is mentioned numerous times in scripture. Such as Heb 6:2-8.

This is not talking about hell or the lake of fire - just that those in this life can turn from God and be severed from the work He longs to do for them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So the lake of fire is the result of God abandoning the earth. His sustaining presence is longer felt in a planet polluted with sin & greed. When God retreats the inevitable results of sin spring up and the earth literally falls apart.

Resurrection is not a natural consequence of dying and in Rev 20 all the wicked are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years.

The Great White Throne judgment is not a natural event that takes place with dead people who have been dead for 1000 years. God makes it happen.

Luke 12:45-48 says that the suffering of those in the second death is proportional - some suffer more some less depending on what they knew and did. Each one is rewarded according to their deeds according to Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, but God isn't the cause of their death. Evil (or sin) pays in death.

Back to the quote in Deut 31:17

Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’

So when God forsakes then trouble or evil follows.

God is not the cause because God is gone....But when God goes His protection and blessings goes too....

I agree that this is the case prior to the 2nd death. Prior to the 2nd resurrection. -- Prior to Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[food4thought]

Hi everyone.

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity. Because it is one of the more common arguments against Christianity, and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine, I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice. After quite a bit of study and contemplation, this is what I have developed. I post it here not as a definitive statement on what hell actually is, but as my thoughts on it as I studied many of the relevant passages. I want you to look at it critically and find flaws in the logic, if there are any. I will seek to defend my understanding, and anyone else who has supporting ideas please feel free to post them as well. Thanks in advance for your help.

Here is a quick sketch of what I am thinking:

Wailing and gnashing of teeth: "Wailing" is a Jewish practice of loud mourning over something or someone. "Gnashing of teeth" is either intense suffering/grief or intense anger.

Fire is is many times used as a symbol of God's judgment in Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.

Jesus also referred to it as outer darkness. In Hebrew, the word for darkness holds the connotation of twisting, or turning, away from the light. So the judgment would be for those who turn/twist away from the light... "God is light".

The worm does not die typified the unending corruption of the soul consumed with sin.

The Greek word we translate torment literally means "to try against the stone", a metaphor taken from metal working, where the metal being heated would be taken from the fire and rubbed against a test stone to determine it's purity. That word eventually came to also be used of the torture officials used to pry confessions from those they believed to be criminals. In the case of Revelation, the combination of fire and torment could very easily be looked at as a reference to the metal working practice, not the practice of Roman authorities.

The second death is a direct reference back to Genesis 2:17, where God tells Adam that the day he eats of the forbidden tree he will "surely die"... the text literally reads "die die". In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).

So all the different references together, when taken as metaphors, indicate that hell is a place of God's judgment where the soul will be brought to ruin, intense sorrow and grief will be common, a place of turning/twisting away from God's light, where sins corruption does not cease, where they will be tested for purity "day and night" (yet because of sins ongoing corruption they will never become pure), rightly identified as the final spiritual separation from communion with God. Not a burning furnace where people are tortured by flames, immortal fireproof worms, and intense darkness. Yet more like a prison for those who will never be reformed from their sinfulness, who continually twist/turn away from God's light. It is the ruin of the soul's purpose of loving communion with God. It is the quarantine of those contaminated by sin from those who have been purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. What exactly do the lost actually sense/experience? I don't know.

Could it be that the very existence of hell, where the corruption of sin goes on in those who reject God, not be an additional source of wisdom for those who choose to obey God? Does the constant testing of the soul for purity, yet always finding sins corruption, not reveal the justice of God for their continued confinement?

I have also been wrestling with this doctrine because I am currently leading a Bible study in the book of Revelation. Again, thank you in advance for your corrections and insights.

Old OP ^^

New OP vv

Hi everyone.

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity. Because it is one of the more common arguments against Christianity, and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine, I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice. After quite a bit of study and contemplation, this is what I have developed. I post it here not as a definitive statement on what hell actually is, but as my thoughts on it as I studied many of the relevant passages. I want you to look at it critically and find flaws in the logic, if there are any. I will seek to defend my understanding, and anyone else who has supporting ideas please feel free to post them as well. Thanks in advance for your help.

Here is a quick sketch of what I am thinking:

Wailing and gnashing of teeth: "Wailing" is a Jewish practice of loud mourning over something or someone. "Gnashing of teeth" is either intense suffering/grief or intense anger. Those who have seen and experienced God's wonderful presence and are then forced to spend eternity separated from it will undoubtedly mourn.

Fire is many times used as a symbol of God's judgment in Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.

Jesus also referred to it as outer darkness. In Hebrew, the word for darkness holds the connotation of twisting, or turning, away from the light. So the judgment would be for those who turn/twist away from the light... "God is light".

The worm does not die typified the unending corruption of the soul consumed with sin.

The Greek word we translate torment literally means "to try against the stone", a metaphor taken from metal working, where the metal being heated would be taken from the fire and rubbed against a test stone to determine it's purity. That word eventually came to also be used of the torture officials used to pry confessions from those they believed to be criminals. In the case of Revelation, the combination of fire and torment could very easily be looked at as a reference to the metal working practice, not the practice of Roman authorities.

The second death is a direct reference back to Genesis 2:17, where God tells Adam that the day he eats of the forbidden tree he will "surely die"... the text literally reads "die die". In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).

So all the different references together, when taken as metaphors, indicate that hell is a place of God's judgment where the soul will be brought to ruin, intense sorrow and grief will be common, a place of turning/twisting away from God's light, where sins corruption does not cease, where they will be tested for purity "day and night" (yet because of sins ongoing corruption they will never become pure), rightly identified as the final spiritual separation from communion with God. Not a burning furnace where people are tortured by flames, immortal fireproof worms, and intense darkness. Yet more like a prison for those who will never be reformed from their sinfulness, who continually twist/turn away from God's light. It is the ruin of the soul's purpose of loving communion with God. It is the quarantine of those contaminated by sin from those who have been purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. What exactly do the lost actually sense/experience? I don't know.

Could it be that the very existence of hell, where the corruption of sin goes on in those who reject God, not be an additional source of wisdom for those who choose to obey God? Does the constant testing of the soul for purity, yet always finding sins corruption, not reveal the justice of God for their continued confinement?

I have also been wrestling with this doctrine because I am currently leading a Bible study in the book of Revelation. Again, thank you in advance for your corrections and insights.

 

[Achilles6129]

No way....

What if a criminal was slowly tortured over many years, but never allowed to die? You would think that the government was barbaric and seek to change the law? But if God does it, well, it's just.

Well, I disagree....

Right, well God is just and the government is not!

Then, in the end, you will act accordingly because according to Christ believers have become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) If it's the nature of God to torment then you will do the same:

John 16:2 They (Holy Joes) will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Why?

3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me!

The reality is God doesn't act this way and therefore believers shouldn't.

Evidently it's the nature of God to torment those who disobey his commands. That does not necessarily mean I will do the same, since "It is mine to avenge, I will repay, saith the Lord." You have yet to deal with all the Scriptures I posted.

 

[BobRyan]

Old OP ^^

New OP vv

Hi everyone.

I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, .

I too have heard that from non-Christians.

I would argue that the Bible has many texts on this subject that are not totally opposed to the Bible doctrine that God is love.

There are Bible texts that are not completely opposed to the Bible teaching that "God is love".

[FONT=&quot]Ps 104.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
35 Let [/FONT]sinners be consumed from the earth
And let the wicked be no more
Bless the LORD, O my soul
Praise the LORD!


[FONT=&quot]Rev 20[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mal 4[/FONT]
1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the Lord of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Jude 7
6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire.

[FONT=&quot]Ps 37[/FONT]
9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

[FONT=&quot]Ezek 18 [/FONT]
4"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is MineThe soul who sins will die.

[FONT=&quot]Romans[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 6[/FONT]
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[FONT=&quot] Matt 10
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather [/FONT]fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


[FONT=&quot]Rev 14:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.


[/FONT]

 

[Achilles6129]

Christ is the truth, and grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Right, and Christ said that indeed all his followers would know the truth and have the truth.

Jesus spoke of those who would not understand His parables as ones who would hear but not understand, see but not perceive. I think we would all acknowledge that at least some of Jesus' parables are difficult to understand... perhaps the Bible's statements about hell are not meant to be readily understood by those who will not dig deeper than the surface meaning. I say this not to attack you, but in love to suggest that maybe you are not seeing all there is to see in these passages, and thus misunderstanding them.

I would say the deeper I dig into the Biblical doctrine of hell the more I realize just how serious Scripture is when it warns us about such things. I also see no other way but to take such statements as "torment," "fire," and so on as straightforwardly as possible.

God does indeed inflict pain on us temporally, so that we might be punished for our wrong and learn from the correction.

Heb 12:8-11 NASB: But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. (9) Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? (10) For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. (11) All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

Correct, but that is talking about his children. You will notice that those who disobey his commands are not his children at all. So this is speaking about two different groups of people here.

Are you insinuating that the nonbeliever is not fully human?

No, I am suggesting that humans who disobey God's commands are not in the image of God at all.

The penalty is beyond normal human limits, I admit that, but I don't think many people would think either of those things to be "good".

There are other examples, then, such as death for encroachment upon the tabernacle and so on.

Because man has departed from the truth he knows in order to follow his own desire... THAT is why they are called sons of Satan. Satan knew God's moral law, he was perfect in wisdom, and he turned his back on God to serve himself.

Satan has an entirely different nature than God. We're not talking here about intellectual choices, we're talking about the actual nature of something. At the tree of the knowledge of good/evil man's nature was changed. This is why there are so many statements about light/darkness in the Scriptures.

No matter how many times I may call a scared person a chicken, though I repeat it dozens and dozens of times, at no point do I mean that person is a literal bird.

I would say the context is entirely different. There is no reason not to take fire literally; throughout the OT we are given plenty of examples of God using literal fire and so many statements about fire throughout the NT that there is really no reason to not take them straightforwardly.

No, not always.

(G928) Matthew 14:24; Mark 6:48; 2nd Peter 2:8... all those passages could rightly be interpreted as being "tested against the stone" in some sense, and I suggest that definition actually makes better sense than the torture/torment one.

In no case in the above examples is the word used of "trying" or "testing" anything. The word is used to describe the adverse affect of something in those particular contexts. It is not being used to describe anything beneficial.

In many of those cases, and in the above verses, the idea of being tested fits better. Context determines meaning. Consider this passage:

Jer 6:27-30 NIV "I have made you a tester of metals and my people the ore, that you may observe and test their ways. (28) They are all hardened rebels, going about to slander. They are bronze and iron; they all act corruptly. (29) The bellows blow fiercely to burn away the lead with fire, but the refining goes on in vain; the wicked are not purged out. (30) They are called rejected silver, because the LORD has rejected them."

At first, one might think the reference again to the bellows/fire again speaks of a literal view of hell, yet who is the "tester of metals"? It is Jeremiah, not God (who is speaking) or the soon to come invading army. How is Jeremiah testing them in the bellows/fire? By speaking truth to them... they are rejected because they reject YHWH and the truth He speaks to them. This may give us some insight into how God tests the lost throughout eternity... they continually turn away/reject Him and His truth. Something for you to consider...

I would say that the passage is not speaking of Gehenna and thus cannot really be used to interpret what goes on at Gehenna.

A further note. I believe Christ used the word "Gehenna" to describe the place of the damned because of the dreadful things that used to go on at Gehenna in ancient times. The idea is probably supposed to correlate with what goes on to the damned in hell.

NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME. Every instance of certain people seeing the LORD, they were not actually seeing God Himself as He truly is, but a manifestation of His nonphysical being into the physical world. GOD. IS. NOT. A. LITERAL. FIRE!!!

I'm not trying to be rude with the all caps and stuff, but this is absolutely essential for you to understand. We can't continue this conversation in any meaningful way until you get this.

Well, he sure seems to talk about fire alot and manifest himself in literal fire alot so clearly there is something about fire that is an essential part (or maybe even the essential part) of God's nature. Since no one has ever seen God's physical presence at any time, you would obviously not know whether or not he was a literal fire or not, although from some depictions it appears as though part of him may indeed be:

"26 And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire;[e] and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form. 27 Upward from what appeared like the loins I saw something like gleaming amber, something that looked like fire enclosed all around; and downward from what looked like the loins I saw something that looked like fire, and there was a splendor all around. 28 Like the bow in a cloud on a rainy day, such was the appearance of the splendor all around. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord." Ezek. 1:26-28 (NRSV)

There is something about fire which forms a part of the essential nature of God.

 

[Setyoufree]

So the idea that the lost can "go some place" that is "very very bad" is mentioned numerous times in scripture. Such as Heb 6:2-8.

Keep in mind that Christ took our curse....He tasted the 2nd death. How did it come about? Did God do it?

 

[Setyoufree]

Resurrection is not a natural consequence of dying and in Rev 20 all the wicked are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years.

Their 1st death wasn't the curse of the law death. It is the 2nd death that the law requires of the sinner.

 

[Setyoufree]

I agree that this is the case prior to the 2nd death. Prior to the 2nd resurrection. -- Prior to Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

I disagree....

 

[Setyoufree]

Evidently it's the nature of God to torment those who disobey his commands. That does not necessarily mean I will do the same, since "It is mine to avenge, I will repay, saith the Lord." You have yet to deal with all the Scriptures I posted.

No, if you have God's nature then you will be like Him....If God torments, you will be in harmony with that principle.

Ah, but torment is not of God. It's Satan's attribute. Hence, in thinking one is becoming like God, he is reflecting the god of this world.

 

[seeingeyes]

No, if you have God's nature then you will be like Him....If God torments, you will be in harmony with that principle.

It's all fine and good as long as someone else is being tormented.

 

[Nanopants]

Yeah, that's a scary implication. I agree with the premise, that we'll be like Him, and that begs the question: is heaven heaven because people will be torturing others?

... no thanks.

 

[14messenger]

Yeah, that's a scary implication. I agree with the premise, that we'll be like Him, and that begs the question: is heaven heaven because people will be torturing others?

... no thanks.

Torture upon torturers is a torturers due. Who dares blame God?

 

[seeingeyes]

Torture upon torturers is a torturers due. Who dares blame God?

Torturers who are being tortured by the one who told them not to torture. :shrug:

 

[14messenger]

Torturers who are being tortured by the one who told them not to torture. :shrug:

The torments of hell told them not to torture? Wowsa.

Let me guess, they told themselves not to torture so that they dont get tortured and they refused to listen to themselves.

"Considers looking into your works."

 

[14messenger]

Who wants to cause hell upon others? Oh wait, let me rephrase that. Who wants to go to hell?

Whoever is attacking God is in error.

 

[seeingeyes]

The torments of hell told them not to torture? Wowsa.

Let me guess, they told themselves not to torture so that they dont get tortured and they refused to listen to themselves.

"Considers looking into your works."

God doesn't tell us not to torture people? Huh. I need to rethink my plans for Saturday, then...

 

[14messenger]

God doesn't tell us not to torture people? Huh. I need to rethink my plans for Saturday, then...

Sarcasm(lying) is of the devil.

 

[seeingeyes]

Who wants to cause hell upon others?

God, according to this theory. I can't imagine that His hands are tied in the matter.

Christians as well. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the argument "If there were no hell, what would be the point of following Christ?"

Men as a whole. We throw each other into hell all day every day.

Oh wait, let me rephrase that. Who wants to go to hell?

Whoever is attacking God is in error.

Who is attacking God? The one who says "God is good, and He will prove it by His actions", or the one who says, "Do what He says, but not what He does, because He doesn't do what He says"?