The doctrine of hell

[BobRyan]

Who killed the firstborn of Egypt?​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]One Perspective

God speaking: “For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord” (Exodus 12:12).

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Another Perspective

For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians: and when He sees the blood on the doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer (Satan) to come into your houses to strike you (Exodus 12:23; emphasis supplied).
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"Satan" means "Adversary".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Setyoufree]

We have already noted that God did not execute Christ, but we still have that perplexing language
stating He did. What can it mean?


Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.


Since God could have prevented these incidents but chose not to do so, He depicts Himself as the actual instrument or performing agent. Note how often He describes them as His own doing in vivid, convincing terms. Yet we are justified, if they do not make sense in terms of the total picture or in terms of God's character as Christ expressed it, to wonder if He simply could have but didn't prevent it. (MM Campbell)

 

[Setyoufree]

"Satan" means "Adversary".

in Christ,

Bob

No, not only "adversary".....

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan,

I have another quote from one of your church co-founders:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that “whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” Gal. 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84-5}

I think the "destroying angel" in this case is one sent by God.

But in Job 1 and 2 - the destroying is done by Satan after God gives him permission to do it to Job.

But the point in the paragraph is that this is no arbitrary (i.e. not a Calvinist sort of picking one for destruction and another for life) decision. Pharaoh is given every opportunity to turn back and persistently chooses death for himself.

Under God the Angels Are All-Powerful.
They are mighty, and they excel in strength. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men of the Assyrian army. They can, and will, soon visit the earth with judgments. In quick succession one angel after another will pour out vials of wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth. How easily could the angels, beholding the shameful scene of the trial of Christ, have testified to their indignation by consuming the adversaries of God! But they were not commanded to do this. {ST, January 17, 1900 par. 10}

But measures were immediately taken in heaven to defeat Satan in his plans. Strong angels, with beams of light like flaming swords turning in every direction, were placed as sentinels to guard the way of the tree of life from the approach of Satan and the guilty pair. Adam and Eve had forfeited all right to their beautiful Eden home, and were now expelled from it. {Con 16.2}


Holy angels were sent to drive out the disobedient pair from the garden, while other angels guarded the way to the tree of life. Each one of these mighty angels had in his right hand a glittering sword.--3SG 45. {TA 62.2}

Strong angels, with beams of light representing flaming swords turning in every direction, were placed as sentinels to guard the way of the tree of life from the approach of Satan and the guilty pair.--RH Feb. 24, 1874. {TA 62.3}

It was Satan's studied plan that Adam and Eve should disobey God, receive His frown, and then partake of the tree of life, that they might perpetuate a life of sin. But holy angels were sent to debar their way to the tree of life. Around these angels flashed beams of light on every side, which had the appearance of glittering swords.--1SP 44. {TA 62.4}[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
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in Christ,

Bob

 

[Setyoufree]

I think the "destroying angel" in this case is one sent by God.

God assumes the blame....God can do no evil.....God assumes the blame until the day of atonement when the blame is placed on its author, the fallen Lucifer.

But in Job 1 and 2 - the destroying is done by Satan after God gives him permission to do it to Job.

Permission? Keep in mind God and the devil do not work together. When God retreats Satan comes in. And the mess Satan makes he blames on God. Satan's desire is to destroy that "God is love" and instead place his own attributes onto our loving and harmless God.

"There is no fear in love (God is love) ; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love." 1 John 4:18

 

[Setyoufree]

They are mighty, and they excel in strength. On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men of the Assyrian army. They can, and will, soon visit the earth with judgments. In quick succession one angel after another will pour out vials of wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth. How easily could the angels, beholding the shameful scene of the trial of Christ, have testified to their indignation by consuming the adversaries of God! But they were not commanded to do this. {ST, January 17, 1900 par. 10}

Yes, I am aware of "those other quotes". Here's the thing, Ellen White did not claim infallibility. In fact she stated that truth is progressive. She herself claimed to have only a glimmer of the light that was yet to come. So ultimately I must go to the Bible for any conclusions. So I must disagree with her statement above.

"We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed." {1 Selected Messages, p. 37}.

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation." {RH, Dec 20, 1892 --CW 35.2}

"The question has been asked me, 'Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?' I answer that he has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the word of truth. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. We are not making the most of the light which the Lord has already given us, and thus we fail to receive the increased light; we do not walk in light already shed upon us." {RH, June 3, 1890 par. 2}

 

[Setyoufree]

On one occasion, in obedience to the command of Christ, they slew in one night one hundred and eighty-five thousand men of the Assyrian army. They can, and will, soon visit the earth with judgments. In quick succession one angel after another will pour out vials of wrath upon the inhabitants of the earth.

Matthew 26:51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? ....

Apparently Jesus is opposed to violence. Jesus goes on to say, [John 18:36] "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

What does Christ mean by "the world"?

Keep in mind that Satan is "the god of this world". His principle is seen everywhere. He uses force and domination to achieve his goals. God is not of this world and therefore He is opposed to force and violence.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

 

[Setyoufree]

Matthew 26:51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52 But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels? ....

Apparently Jesus is opposed to violence. Jesus goes on to say, [John 18:36] "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

What does Christ mean by "the world"?

Keep in mind that Satan is "the god of this world". His principle is seen everywhere. He uses force and domination to achieve his goals. God is not of this world and therefore He is opposed to force and violence.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.

Having said that, I agree with these statements from your church:


God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves (abandons) the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. [GC 36.1]

 

[Setyoufree]

Therefore, God does not kill. Sin kills...Lucifer kills....fallen beings kill, but God does not sin. Therefore God does not burn folks in hell. Rather He abandons those who apostatize and/or reject His grace and the end result is ciaos! He abandons them because He will not use force and compulsion. He leaves them to their own choice. Hence, "God destroys no man, man destroys himself"!

 

[Setyoufree]

"you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

 

[Nanopants]

Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. -Deu 32:39

So much of scripture testifies to the fact that God does kill. While murder is always done with evil intent, killing, as unpleasant as it is, is not always evil, and death, as unpleasant as it is, is better than torment, as at least a few saints in scripture are described as having asked God for death to end their suffering.

*A somewhat off topic note: "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness" is not done by seeking first the ultimate evil, or seeking first escape from eternal torture.

 

[Setyoufree]

Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand. -Deu 32:39

So much of scripture testifies to the fact that God does kill.

Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.

 

[BobRyan]

"Satan" means "adversary"

No, not only "adversary".....

Here is an example of what I have seen --

"Satan is primarily understood as an "accuser" or "adversary" in the Hebrew Bible,"

Satan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[BobRyan]

Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.

Satan does not have the power to resurrect the wicked at the end of the 1000 years and according to Matt 26 - hell is "made for the devil and his angels" so the devil does not light up the lake of fire either. Rather he is a victim of it according to Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan,

I have another quote from one of your church co-founders:

God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that “whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” Gal. 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84-5}

The above quote appears to deal with God's judgment on Pharaoh in this life rather than the next.

And since you are quoting from what Ellen White claimed God showed her in vision regarding the wicked - I will add this --

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met[FONT=&quot]; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

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The point being that the SDA source you keep referencing describes the punishment as the wicked as something that God does -- not a natural result of nature. Yet Ellen White is also adamant that this is no arbitrary act where God simply sends one person to hell rather than heaven because He is fickle or chose not to love them.

Which is also what we find in the Bible in Rev 20, and in placed like Luke 12:45-48, Matt 26 etc.

So it is no wonder that we take the Christ so seriously in Matt 10:28.

in Christ,

Bob


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[BobRyan]

Just finished watching the movie "Hell and Mr. Fudge" with some Christian friends of mine.

Great movie! Martin Luther would have loved it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Setyoufree]

Satan does not have the power to resurrect the wicked at the end of the 1000 years and according to Matt 26 - hell is "made for the devil and his angels" so the devil does not light up the lake of fire either. Rather he is a victim of it according to Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

That is true....The reason they are raised is because their 1st death wasn't the curse.

Here's the curse: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Gal 3:10

The curse of the law is God abandonment, which culminates in the 2nd death - goodbye to life forever with no hope of a resurrection.

 

[Setyoufree]

The above quote appears to deal with God's judgment on Pharaoh in this life rather than the next.

But in all these judgments God acts the same in that He abandons those who reject Him.

And since you are quoting from what Ellen White claimed God showed her in vision regarding the wicked - I will add this --

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

Okay, again there's God assuming the blame for what He does not prevent. Clearly God has abandoned the earth. Fire comes down from the sky (heaven) as the earth breaks up.

Some are destroyed as in a moment,

while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met[FONT=&quot]; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

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Yes, and I would have to disagree with her here. The punishment, if you will, is goodbye to life forever. It's called the 2nd death. In the 2nd death there's no hope of a resurrection.

The law doesn't demand torment or suffering. The law demands eternal separation - i.e., the 2nd death.


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[FONT=&quot]The point being that the SDA source you keep referencing describes the punishment as the wicked as something that God does -- not a natural result of nature.[/FONT]

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No, God doesn't do it...He abandons the earth and when that happens this sin polluted planet comes apart. Sin is the destroyer, not God. Sin brings death....


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[BobRyan]

In Luke 12:45-48 and in Matt 18 and in Is 53 the law demands "stripes" and "Torment" and "suffering -- lashes".

It is torment that is the payment of the 2nd death in those texts - just as we see in Rev 14:10-11.

 

[Setyoufree]

In Luke 12:45-48 and in Matt 18 and in Is 53 the law demands "stripes" and "Torment" and "suffering -- lashes".

It is torment that is the payment of the 2nd death in those texts - just as we see in Rev 14:10-11.

The wages of sin is death, not torment. The curse of the law is death, not torment.

Tell me, what good comes out of the torment of the lost? Nothing....Their punishment, if you will, is the eternal grave. It's goodbye to life forever and ever.