The doctrine of hell

[Setyoufree]

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

How does one pick up death and hades (hell or the grave) and throw it into the lake of fire????

Again, Revelation is highly symbolic.

 

[Rick Otto]

How does one pick up death and hades (hell or the grave) and throw it into the lake of fire????

Gingerly, with an oven mitt if available.

 

[food4thought]

Did he? Love is defined by what God says/does inside of Scripture. Is everything God says/does inside of Scripture in line with your definition of love, or even most people's definition of love? I think not. Isn't that why this thread was started - because we're trying to redefine hell to be in line with what human beings necessarily think that love is?

God definitely DID make it clear what His type of love was, and it indeed does surpass what humans would try to limit love to.

I have read it. There is nothing in there I disagree with and nothing in there or anywhere else in Scripture that contradicts the traditional view of hell, at least in my opinion.

OK... maybe not explicitly there, but what about this?

Rom 13:10 LITV Love does not work evil to the neighbor. Then love is the fulfillment of Law.

Well, Christ offered the truth did he not?

Christ is the truth, and grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of those who would not understand His parables as ones who would hear but not understand, see but not perceive. I think we would all acknowledge that at least some of Jesus' parables are difficult to understand... perhaps the Bible's statements about hell are not meant to be readily understood by those who will not dig deeper than the surface meaning. I say this not to attack you, but in love to suggest that maybe you are not seeing all there is to see in these passages, and thus misunderstanding them.

If you want more than that I own several commentaries on Leviticus and could probably give you some quotes.

Not necessary.

No doubt. But if God will torture temporally, and he clearly will, then why not eternally?

God does indeed inflict pain on us temporally, so that we might be punished for our wrong and learn from the correction.

Heb 12:8-11 NASB: But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. (9) Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? (10) For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. (11) All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

I will have to say I disagree with this interpretation....I find statements such as "I never knew you" and "children of Satan" and "born again" and so on to be indicative that they never had the image of God in the first place.

Are you insinuating that the nonbeliever is not fully human?

No, it's actually not in line at all with God's moral law. What natural man would execute their children for cursing them? Or for saying "Let us go and serve other gods"?

The penalty is beyond normal human limits, I admit that, but I don't think many people would think either of those things to be "good".

There is something more going on here. Why does God say that man's heart is evil from his youth if he is in line with most of God's moral law?

Because man has departed from the truth he knows in order to follow his own desire... THAT is why they are called sons of Satan. Satan knew God's moral law, he was perfect in wisdom, and he turned his back on God to serve himself.

Indeed. But the point is that torment is not outside of the nature of God. Consider also the passage in Revelation: Rev. 9:3-6 (NRSV)

When a word can mean more than one thing, context helps determine it's meaning.

I would say their purpose is destruction...

It's purpose is retribution. Apparently some terrible crime has been committed.

Indeed... they rejected God and turned away from Him. Their punishment will fit the crime.

I have contemplated it but it does not make sense due to the context of the statements and the sheer number of times they are used. There appears to be a very serious literal element here or else the word "fire" wouldn't be being repeated over and over again.

No matter how many times I may call a scared person a chicken, though I repeat it dozens and dozens of times, at no point do I mean that person is a literal bird.

Actually, the way the word is used in the NT it universally means torture. Consider:

No, not always.

(G928) Matthew 14:24; Mark 6:48; 2nd Peter 2:8... all those passages could rightly be interpreted as being "tested against the stone" in some sense, and I suggest that definition actually makes better sense than the torture/torment one.

You will notice that in each case it is used it refers to some sort of active physical pain, something detrimental to the object it is being used against. You will also notice that the demons in Mt. 8:29 are afraid Christ has come there to "torment them before the time" which can hardly be talking about your definition of torment.

In many of those cases, and in the above verses, the idea of being tested fits better. Context determines meaning. Consider this passage:

Jer 6:27-30 NIV "I have made you a tester of metals and my people the ore, that you may observe and test their ways. (28) They are all hardened rebels, going about to slander. They are bronze and iron; they all act corruptly. (29) The bellows blow fiercely to burn away the lead with fire, but the refining goes on in vain; the wicked are not purged out. (30) They are called rejected silver, because the LORD has rejected them."

At first, one might think the reference again to the bellows/fire again speaks of a literal view of hell, yet who is the "tester of metals"? It is Jeremiah, not God (who is speaking) or the soon to come invading army. How is Jeremiah testing them in the bellows/fire? By speaking truth to them... they are rejected because they reject YHWH and the truth He speaks to them. This may give us some insight into how God tests the lost throughout eternity... they continually turn away/reject Him and His truth. Something for you to consider...

No, not really a Biblical definition: 1 Tim. 4:1-3 (NASB)

Unless you believe those who forbid marriage and command abstention from certain foods are sociopaths - a definition which I think not a lot of psychologists would agree with!

Sociopath | Define Sociopath at Dictionary.com

Paul was speaking of specific teachers during his day... they are unavailable for psyche evaluations though. They were the originators of teachings that others follow by tradition.

Yet God did not descend upon Mt. Sinai as a literal lamb, lion, or door. He descended upon Mt. Sinai as literal fire. Is he trying to tell us something?

NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME. Every instance of certain people seeing the LORD, they were not actually seeing God Himself as He truly is, but a manifestation of His nonphysical being into the physical world. GOD. IS. NOT. A. LITERAL. FIRE!!!

I'm not trying to be rude with the all caps and stuff, but this is absolutely essential for you to understand. We can't continue this conversation in any meaningful way until you get this.

 

[14messenger]

The joyous in wickedness go to hell. It isn't too hard to understand.

 

[seeingeyes]

Yeah, I think what it boils down to is the old saying, "With power
comes responsibility." Therefore, if one is *all* powerful, then it would
follow that one is *all* responsible.

To say that God is *all* responsible, since He is *all* powerful
becomes less be troubling the more one understands that He's
competent and knows what He's doing.


-

We can know what he is doing because of what He has already done. Hasn't our Lord taken "all responsibility" for our sin onto his own back?

Why do we keep trying to take it back?

 

[BobRyan]

How does one pick up death and hades (hell or the grave) and throw it into the lake of fire????

Again, Revelation is highly symbolic.

Death and Hades (the grave where David still is according to Acts 2) are thrown into the lake of fire -- meaning that after the lake of Fire event completes - there is no more death, no more grave.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation is couched in symbolism. Yes, there's a lake of fire, but is it God's doing? I say no....

What does the text say?

Rev 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Was Christ tormented forever & ever for the sins of the whole world?

No! He died within a 6 hour period. He took the curse, for all men, within 6 hrs. Therefore for God to torment the devil and unbelievers for ever and ever is unjust.

1. You are right that Christ did not suffer infinite torment times the number of sinners who have every lived (Billions of infinities). No way to get around that.

2. But your first question above was not "how long" are they in torment but rather who puts them in that lake of Fire - who creates it, who makes it. The text says that God is the one that creates the lake of fire".

3. The text you quote from Rev 20 does not list anyone for whom Christ died only the devil, the beast and false prophet --

4. Regarding sinners - for whom Christ died in Rev 20


[FONT=&quot]Rev 20[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.[/FONT]

And Christ, the Angels and probably the saints as well - are there for the whole thing.

[FONT=&quot]Rev 14:10[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.[/FONT]

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

In other words death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Or, another rendering, death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire.

So there's problems interpreting Revelation. We must go to the clear texts....

"Hades" is the grave not hell. In Acts 2 - David is still in Hades.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rick Otto]

The joyous in wickedness go to hell. It isn't too hard to understand.

Shauden freude.

 

[Setyoufree]

Death and Hades (the grave where David still is according to Acts 2) are thrown into the lake of fire -- meaning that after the lake of Fire event completes - there is no more death, no more grave.

in Christ,

Bob

Okay....but the thing is death and the grave can't literally be thrown in the lake of fire. But Revelation says it is. If it's not, then the devil isn't literally thrown in the fire either.

 

[Setyoufree]

The text says that God is the one that creates the lake of fire".

[FONT=&quot]9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.[/FONT]

And the same language is used for Sodom & Gomorrah:

"Then the LORD rained down fire and burning sulfur from the heavens on Sodom and Gomorrah" (Gen 19:23)

As I have already shown, the Lord did not destroy these cities. He abandoned these cities.....Therefore Ellen White (since you are SDA) had it right:

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown . Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner...."

Now, if you would, re-read my post on Sodom & Gomorrah:

Deuteronomy 29:23 NIV

The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger

How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender.

If God be for us, who can be against us????

So God does not burn folks in hell. The lake of fire happens, in the end of days, because God has to abandon the wicked, those who reject the atonement.

Notice the phrases "give you up" and "hand you over". The idea here is that God abandoned these cities and destruction came because God was not among them.

Deuteronomy 31:17 RSV

Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

 

[BobRyan]

Okay....but the thing is death and the grave can't literally be thrown in the lake of fire. But Revelation says it is. If it's not, then the devil isn't literally thrown in the fire either.

if one thing is symbolic -- then everything is symbolic?

if death and the grave cease with the lake of fire then when the devil gets thrown in -- he ??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Setyoufree]

if one thing is symbolic -- then everything is symbolic?

if death and the grave cease with the lake of fire then when the devil gets thrown in -- he ??

in Christ,

Bob

Yes, Satan takes the curse - the 2nd death, but he is not thrown in.

 

[BobRyan]

And the same language is used for Sodom & Gomorrah:

"Then the LORD rained down fire and burning sulfur from the heavens on Sodom and Gomorrah" (Gen 19:23)

As I have already shown, the Lord did not destroy these cities. He abandoned these cities.....Therefore Ellen White (since you are SDA) had it right:

"God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown . Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner...."

Now, if you would, re-read my post on Sodom & Gomorrah:

The quote above is about the one who finally loses all interest in the Gospel and is under the control of Satan.

"We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God’s mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."

From Great Controversy - page 36.

it is not about what John calls "the Lake of Fire".

In that case - the wicked are all dead during the millennium. So the "natural" result is for them to simply "stay dead". But God chooses instead to resurrect them all - to judge them all at the Great White Throne judgment and then to cast them into the Lake of Fire - which He has also created at that time to "Destroy both body and soul" (to quote Christ in Matt 10:28) and to cleanse the earth (as Peter points out in 2Peter 3.)


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Now, if you would, re-read my post on Sodom & Gomorrah:

Originally Posted by Setyoufree

Deuteronomy 29:23 NIV

The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur--nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger

How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender.

If God be for us, who can be against us????

So God does not burn folks in hell. The lake of fire happens, in the end of days, because God has to abandon the wicked, those who reject the atonement.

Notice the phrases "give you up" and "hand you over". The idea here is that God abandoned these cities and destruction came because God was not among them.

Deuteronomy 31:17 RSV

Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

​

​

The results are the same for a cursed land - just as Sodom and Gomorrah appear today- nothing grows there.

But that does not mean that the wicked have the ability to rain fire and brimstone down upon themselves. (At least not back then).

Notice that Abraham's plea with God over Sodom and Gomorrah "will you destroy the righteous along with the wicked" and God says "For the sake of Ten righteous I will not destroy the city" - but then fails to find even ten.

in Christ,

Bob
​

 

[food4thought]

Death and Hades (the grave where David still is according to Acts 2) are thrown into the lake of fire -- meaning that after the lake of Fire event completes - there is no more death, no more grave.

in Christ,

Bob

I would disagree with your interpretation of Acts 2 that says David was still in Hades at that time... the text only indicates that David tomb was with them, and indication that David was indeed buried and suffered decay.

 

[food4thought]

As for annihilationism... here are a few Scriptures to consider:

Jer 17:1-11 NASB The sin of Judah is written down with an iron stylus; With a diamond point it is engraved upon the tablet of their heart And on the horns of their altars, (2) As they remember their children, So they remember their altars and their Asherim By green trees on the high hills. (3) O mountain of Mine in the countryside, I will give over your wealth and all your treasures for booty, Your high places for sin throughout your borders. (4) And you will, even of yourself, let go of your inheritance That I gave you; And I will make you serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger Which will burn forever. (5) Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD. (6) "For he will be like a bush in the desert And will not see when prosperity comes, But will live in stony wastes in the wilderness, A land of salt without inhabitant. (7) "Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD And whose trust is the LORD. (8) "For he will be like a tree planted by the water, That extends its roots by a stream And will not fear when the heat comes; But its leaves will be green, And it will not be anxious in a year of drought Nor cease to yield fruit. (9) "The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? (10) "I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds. (11) "As a partridge that hatches eggs which it has not laid, So is he who makes a fortune, but unjustly; In the midst of his days it will forsake him, And in the end he will be a fool."

and

Rev 14:9-12 NASB Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, (10) he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. (11) "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (12) Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

 

[Setyoufree]

But that does not mean that the wicked have the ability to rain fire and brimstone down upon themselves. (At least not back then).

Neither does it mean that God destroys, as we traditionally think. Clearly God abandoned those cities as my quote from Hosea indicates. Otherwise instead of the wages of sin is death, God is death. That would mean God, instead of sin, is the author of death.

 

[Setyoufree]

The results are the same

Yes, but God isn't the cause of their death. Evil (or sin) pays in death.

Back to the quote in Deut 31:17

Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured. And many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’

So when God forsakes then trouble or evil follows.

God is not the cause because God is gone....But when God goes His protection and blessings goes too....

 

[Setyoufree]

So the lake of fire is the result of God abandoning the earth. His sustaining presence is longer felt in a planet polluted with sin & greed. When God retreats the inevitable results of sin spring up and the earth literally falls apart.

 

[Setyoufree]

The quote above is about the one who finally loses all interest in the Gospel and is under the control of Satan.

"We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God’s mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed.

Bob

I disagree. Notice it says, "The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God’s mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one."

These are folks who have no interest in the gospel...Hence God brings His rain on the just & the unjust.