The doctrine of hell

[food4thought]

I do believe God created hell as a place of quarantine. As another said, nothing was made that was not made through the Word. Perhaps hell is not a place, but I conceive it to be so... I could be wrong.


Sin, on the other hand, may not be properly understood as a thing at all... I think it was Augustine who postulated that sin is actually not a thing but is a privation, or corruption, or lack, of good. Nevertheless, God most certainly knew sin would exist when He began creation... yet He is not the originator of sin, but merely the originator of beings with free will (itself a wondrous thing that echoes the good nature of God) which allowed for the possibility of sin. Maybe splitting hairs here, but IMO that is a pretty monumental hair

 

[seeingeyes]

I do believe God created hell as a place of quarantine. As another said, nothing was made that was not made through the Word. Perhaps hell is not a place, but I conceive it to be so... I could be wrong.


Sin, on the other hand, may not be properly understood as a thing at all... I think it was Augustine who postulated that sin is actually not a thing but is a privation, or corruption, or lack, of good. Nevertheless, God most certainly knew sin would exist when He began creation... yet He is not the originator of sin, but merely the originator of beings with free will (itself a wondrous thing that echoes the good nature of God) which allowed for the possibility of sin. Maybe splitting hairs here, but IMO that is a pretty monumental hair

Well, it's splitting something, alright. When I walk down the street and I see the trees, and the flowers, and the rain, and the mother pushing a stroller, and the homeless guy blitzed out on heaven-only-knows-what, and the thugs walking along trying to look tough, and the old lady hobbling around a pothole, and the kids playing in puddles splashing everyone nearby, should I say, "God made this world"? Or should I say, "God made some of this world, and man made the rest?"

If He's the Creator, then let Him be the Creator. :shrug:

 

[food4thought]

BTW... I just realized it wasn't sin that Augustine was talking about, but evil. Sorry...

 

[Setyoufree]

For some reason, God decided that a world in which his son would die for the sins of others was the world He wanted to make.

But if there had been no sin and sinners then Christ need not have died.

 

[Setyoufree]

Yes I believe that is correct. He creates it.

In Rev 20 he raises the wicked to life after the 1000 years -- and then judges them in the Great White Throne judgment and then puts them in the Lake of Fire also in Rev 20.

in Christ,

Bob

Revelation is couched in symbolism. Yes, there's a lake of fire, but is it God's doing? I say no....

 

[seeingeyes]

But if there had been no sin and sinners then Christ need not have died.

But Christ was the sacrifice before the beginning...

 

[Setyoufree]

But Christ was the sacrifice before the beginning...

The beginning of the creation of this world, but again the Trinity knew what would happen. Christ need not have died if God had not created Lucifer....They knew Lucifer would rebel, but God created him anyway. Why? Only God knows....

 

[Setyoufree]

Connect the dots....

Zeboiim - Online Bible Study Tools

How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender.

If God be for us, who can be against us????

So God does not burn folks in hell. The lake of fire happens, in the end of days, because God has to abandon the wicked, those who reject the atonement.

Notice the phrases "give you up" and "hand you over". The idea here is that God abandoned these cities and destruction came because God was not among them.

Deuteronomy 31:17 RSV

Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

 

[seeingeyes]

Why? Only God knows....

Yes. He knows. Because it is a decision that He made.

 

[Setyoufree]

Yes. He knows. Because it is a decision that He made.

Yes, and I think I know....

Perhaps God knew that eventually some created being would rebel against His agape.

Also, how do you disprove Lucifer's claim on self-love?

Answer: Allow it to develop.

So I think God had to allow Lucifer to develop his love of self and thus expose the lie.

 

[Setyoufree]

How can I give you up, O Ephraim? How can I hand you over, O Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I treat you like Zeboiim? My heart recoils within me; my compassion grows warm and tender.

If God be for us, who can be against us????

So God does not burn folks in hell. The lake of fire happens, in the end of days, because God has to abandon the wicked, those who reject the atonement.

Notice the phrases "give you up" and "hand you over". The idea here is that God abandoned these cities and destruction came because God was not among them.

Deuteronomy 31:17 RSV

Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

Keep in mind:

Deut 29:23 "the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim, which the LORD overthrew in fierce anger."

 

[Setyoufree]

So God's anger can be described as His reluctant departure from those who persistently reject Him.


Then why does He give those who persist in unbelief up? Because God's love cannot force or coerce. He never abandons anyone out of human anger.....Therefore divine anger is the reluctant departure from those who reject Him.

So Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed because God withdrew Himself and His protection from those cities because of unbelief.

 

[Achilles6129]

The Holy Spirit made quite sure we understood what God means when he says "agape".

Did he? Love is defined by what God says/does inside of Scripture. Is everything God says/does inside of Scripture in line with your definition of love, or even most people's definition of love? I think not. Isn't that why this thread was started - because we're trying to redefine hell to be in line with what human beings necessarily think that love is?

Perhaps you should reread 1st Corinthians 13 and contemplate what it says. This thread is about trying to understand the passages describing hell how God intended us to understand them.

I have read it. There is nothing in there I disagree with and nothing in there or anywhere else in Scripture that contradicts the traditional view of hell, at least in my opinion.

The only sure barrier to truth is the unwarranted certainty that we already know it.

Well, Christ offered the truth did he not?

Interesting. Do you have a link to the relevant ancient Jewish literature?

The first place I read this was in Jacob Milgrom's commentary on Leviticus. The commentary proper is nearly 2500 pages long and Milgrom was considered (while alive) to be the world's leading authority on Leviticus. Milgrom cited ancient literature to show that this penalty was carried out, and he also indicated that his understanding of the passage was the same as mine; death by literal burning.

If you want more than that I own several commentaries on Leviticus and could probably give you some quotes.

I apologize, I think I was wrong in what I said... the punishment is harsh, but it is still an infinite leap from temporal to eternal punishment, is it not?

No doubt. But if God will torture temporally, and he clearly will, then why not eternally? I guess what I was really trying to address was the claim (often made) that torture/torment is outside of the nature of God. It clearly is not.

Because we have followed Satan's ways by rebelling against God despite God's image He has placed in us. Even though we have a moral conscience given to us by God, we have all disregarded it when it suited our selfish desire to please ourselves. Read Romans 2.

I will have to say I disagree with this interpretation....I find statements such as "I never knew you" and "children of Satan" and "born again" and so on to be indicative that they never had the image of God in the first place.

There are many commandments of God which make absolute sense to man's sense of morality

And many that do not.

Man does have a general sense of right and wrong that is in line with most of God's moral law,

No, it's actually not in line at all with God's moral law. What natural man would execute their children for cursing them? Or for saying "Let us go and serve other gods"? What natural human being would support eternal torture in hell? People have been fighting against that doctrine for thousands of years!

There is something more going on here. Why does God say that man's heart is evil from his youth if he is in line with most of God's moral law? Why is man in terrible danger from God if he approaches God the wrong way or disobeys his commands (shown in the Torah) if he is in line with most of God's moral law? Why do they think the devil/beast are good and the two witnesses so evil they don't even deserve to be buried if they are in line with most of God's moral law?

But all that being said, YES, God would deliberately bring upon them these things as a punishment for their breaking the covenant with Him. But again, there is an tremendous difference between temporal punishment and eternal punishment, is there not? The book of Deuteronomy clearly says that if in their affliction they come to their senses and repent, God will hear and heal their land.

Indeed. But the point is that torment is not outside of the nature of God. Consider also the passage in Revelation:

"3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given authority like the authority of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to damage the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were allowed to torture them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torture was like the torture of a scorpion when it stings someone. 6 And in those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will flee from them." Rev. 9:3-6 (NRSV)

These punishments serve a purpose of bringing about repentance and healing

I would say their purpose is destruction. Like God's purpose in the wilderness was to destroy the entire generation that had rebelled against him, not to bring about some form of repentance so they could all enter the promised land. Remember also Moses who was barred from the promised land as well by God. But this is an entirely different discussion here.

... yet in hell there is no repentance, there is no more healing... so active punishment no longer serves any purpose.

It's purpose is retribution. Apparently some terrible crime has been committed.

Yet you refuse to even contemplate the possibility that the lake of fire might be metaphorical hyperbole, creating in us the visceral reaction of horror to the idea of being burned alive yet not meaning that is literally what will be taking place.

I have contemplated it but it does not make sense due to the context of the statements and the sheer number of times they are used. There appears to be a very serious literal element here or else the word "fire" wouldn't be being repeated over and over again.

The Greek word basanismos is ambiguous, deliberately so I believe, regarding the nature of hell. Is it torture like the Roman officials did to suspected criminals, or is it testing for purity like the metal working origin of the word? This ambiguity is lost in translation.

Actually, the way the word is used in the NT it universally means torture. Consider:

"And G2532 saying, G3004 Lord, G2962 my G3450 servant G3816 lieth G906 at G1722 home G3614 sick of the palsy, G3885 grievously G1171 tormented. G928." Mt. 8:6

The "tormented" word here is, as you can see, basanizo. Here are a list of usages in the KJV:

Greek Lexicon :: G928 (KJV)

You will notice that in each case it is used it refers to some sort of active physical pain, something detrimental to the object it is being used against. You will also notice that the demons in Mt. 8:29 are afraid Christ has come there to "torment them before the time" which can hardly be talking about your definition of torment.

there are those whose consciences have been totally subverted/destroyed, which the Bible describes as having their conscience "seared as with a hot iron". I think we would call those people sociopaths.

No, not really a Biblical definition:

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will [a]fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth." 1 Tim. 4:1-3 (NASB)

Unless you believe those who forbid marriage and command abstention from certain foods are sociopaths - a definition which I think not a lot of psychologists would agree with!

Sociopath | Define Sociopath at Dictionary.com

I listed the other references to show you that the words used to describe God are quite often symbolic of some aspect of His character or action, not literal. If there is the physical appearance of fire, it is only symbolically representative of how God was trying to express Himself. God is Spirit. He is not a literal physical fire any more than He is a literal lamb or lion or door. These words/manifestations are all symbolic of His character or action, not His literal "physical body" (for lack of a better way to put it). Does that make sense to you?

Yet God did not descend upon Mt. Sinai as a literal lamb, lion, or door. He descended upon Mt. Sinai as literal fire. Is he trying to tell us something?

 

[seeingeyes]

Yes, and I think I know....

Perhaps God knew that eventually some created being would rebel against His agape.

Also, how do you disprove Lucifer's claim on self-love?

Answer: Allow it to develop.

So I think God had to allow Lucifer to develop his love of self and thus expose the lie.

Our disagreement probably stems from the word "allow".

I may very well "allow" my children to fall down, not because I hate them, but because I want them to be prepared for the very painful world that they have been born into. So I, as a limited person, may "allow" things that I do not "want".

Though if I had created the gravity, the ground and the rocks, the child with the nerve endings and the fragile skin and the desire to run around, then speaking of what I "allow" gets a bit wonky.

I'm not a fan of "decretive" vs. "prescriptive" will with regards to God. Sounds more like a politician trying to wiggle out of trouble than our bold and fearless God.

 

[Achilles6129]

Actually, God is not a tyrant,

You are correct. It is the other way around.

but some of the theology I read makes it sound as if He were.

Aha! Is this a reference to my posts?!

It is outside God's nature to do evil.

Correct. But what is evil?

Torture is evil.

Well in that case God does quite a lot of evil then. Consider:

"28 When He came to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs. They were so extremely violent that no one could pass by that way. 29 And they cried out, saying, “[a]What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before [b]the time?”" Mt. 8:28-29 (NASB)

"6 Seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before Him; 7 and shouting with a loud voice, he *said, “[a]What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!”" Mk. 5:6-7 (NASB)

"27 And when He came out onto the land, He was met by a man from the city who was possessed with demons; and who had not put on any clothing for a long time, and was not living in a house, but in the tombs. 28 Seeing Jesus, he cried out and fell before Him, and said in a loud voice, “[a]What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg You, do not torment me.”" Lu. 8:27-28 (NASB)

"22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’" Lu. 16:22-24 (NASB)

"27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’" Lu. 16:27-29 (NASB)

"4 They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And [a]they were not permitted to kill [b]anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it [c]stings a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death flees from them." Rev. 9:4-6 (NASB)

"9 Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead [a]bodies for three and a half days, and [b]will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth." Rev. 11:9-10 (NASB)

"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [a]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [b]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [c]whoever receives the mark of his name.”" Rev. 14:9-11 (NASB)

"10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [c]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev. 20:10 (NASB)

No, I am afraid that active torment is absolutely a part of the nature of God, and that such is clearly a part of retributive punishment in hell.

 

[Rajni]

Our disagreement probably stems from the word "allow".

I may very well "allow" my children to fall down, not because I hate them, but because I want them to be prepared for the very painful world that they have been born into. So I, as a limited person, may "allow" things that I do not "want".

Though if I had created the gravity, the ground and the rocks, the child with the nerve endings and the fragile skin and the desire to run around, then speaking of what I "allow" gets a bit wonky.

I'm not a fan of "decretive" vs. "prescriptive" will with regards to God. Sounds more like a politician trying to wiggle out of trouble than our bold and fearless God.

Yeah, I think what it boils down to is the old saying, "With power
comes responsibility." Therefore, if one is *all* powerful, then it would
follow that one is *all* responsible.

To say that God is *all* responsible, since He is *all* powerful
becomes less troubling the more one understands that He's
competent and knows what He's doing.


-

 

[Setyoufree]

No, I am afraid that active torment is absolutely a part of the nature of God, and that such is clearly a part of retributive punishment in hell.

No way....

What if a criminal was slowly tortured over many years, but never allowed to die? You would think that the government was barbaric and seek to change the law? But if God does it, well, it's just.

Well, I disagree....

 

[Setyoufree]

I am afraid that active torment is absolutely a part of the nature of God....

Then, in the end, you will act accordingly because according to Christ believers have become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4) If it's the nature of God to torment then you will do the same:

John 16:2 They (Holy Joes) will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.

Why?

3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me!

The reality is God doesn't act this way and therefore believers shouldn't.

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation is couched in symbolism. Yes, there's a lake of fire, but is it God's doing? I say no....

What does the text say?

 

[Setyoufree]

What does the text say?

Rev 20:10 "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Was Christ tormented forever & ever for the sins of the whole world?

No! He died within a 6 hour period. He took the curse, for all men, within 6 hrs. Therefore for God to torment the devil and unbelievers for ever and ever is unjust. He's letting Christ, the sin bearer, off easy.

Also, the text states the devil is cast into the lake of fire.

The problem is Revelation is highly symbolic, loaded with metaphors. IF the devil and unbelievers are actually picked up and thrown in then the following must also be true:

Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

In other words death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Or, another rendering, death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire.

So there's problems interpreting Revelation. We must go to the clear texts....