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I wouldn't say irrelevant... it is part of the truth that God has revealed, and I am having a difficulty loving this particular part of the truth; thus this thread. Jesus taught on it quite a bit, and if I am to love my Lord as I should, I need to reconcile this teaching with who I know Him to be.
I wouldn't say irrelevant... it is part of the truth that God has revealed, and I am having a difficulty loving this particular part of the truth; thus this thread. Jesus taught on it quite a bit, and if I am to love my Lord as I should, I need to reconcile this teaching with who I know Him to be.
Whatever one's definition of hell, a Biblical Christian should not lose sight of the fact that God shall lay a curse upon the nonbeliever and shall lay a blessing upon the nonbeliever. This is what distinguishes the saved and the damned in the next life. If anyone does not love the Lorda curse be on him. 1 Corinthians 16:22 (NIV).
Hi everyone.
I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity. Because it is one of the more common arguments against Christianity, and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine, I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice.
1. I have to hand it to them that is a pretty good argument.
2. Some people strongly oppose Christ's statement in Matt 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul - but rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY Both body AND soul in fiery hell".
So while it is true that there is real bodies and real souls going to real hell and that it has real fire and real brimstone and real torment.
And yet - Matt 10:28 is literally true as well - no matter some might choose to war against it.
in Christ,
Bob
I really wish a qualified theologian could explain to me how it is that a verse out of the Gospel has come to be considered so dangerously close to heresy.
Without one I suppose we can always connect the dots...
Adulterous generation...
Helenized Judaism...
Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire...
God is a consuming fire...
As it's written, He will destroy our understanding?
At the same time I suppose one could say that God may be able to torture a soul in a fiery hell for eternity, or pretty it up and say that God might consign a soul to eternal torture, but to be fair, that doesn't mean He's going to do it.
Food for thought: what we imagine that God will do is closely related to who we say He is, and what we imagine of that which we worship is closely related to who we are.
What, exactly, do you expect them to say?
If God is so just then what's disturbing about it?
Yes...which makes me wonder why they're in Christianity to begin with, if they believe that God is unjust. One would think that they would have thought of these things before joining Christianity. As it is, many people join Christianity and then basically go to war against the Bible and attempt to make it out to say whatever they wish it to say.
Such an understanding is depicted in Scripture itself.
What you're overlooking here is that fire is hardly a symbol of God's judgment but is actually used literally throughout all of Scripture. For example, God destroyed Sodom/Gomorrah with fire/brimstone from heaven (hardly a symbolic judgment) which meant they were simply burnt alive by God. Elijah burnt 102 men alive by calling down fire from heaven upon them (2 Kings 1).
I think you're being hyper-literal here.
Not necessarily in Biblical usage. It could mean death, it could be a literal worm, or it could be representative of their body.
The text should read "dying you shall die." The second death appears to be a reference to the lake of fire itself, not back to Genesis 2:17.
No, this is not what all the different references taken together indicate.
Actually, Scripture indicates that hell is in fact a burning furnace, a lake of fire, where there is literal conscious torment forever and ever:
"41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [w]all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt. 13:41-42 (NASB)
"41 Then He will also say to those on His left, Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" Mt. 25:41 (NASB)
" 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Mt. 25:46 (NASB)
"9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [h]whoever receives the mark of his name." Rev. 14:9-11 (NASB)
"10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev. 20:10 (NASB)
Hi everyone.
I have been spending time on the Exploring Christianity forum and have found the most common reason given by unbelievers there for not accepting the God of the Bible is the doctrine of hell. They perceive it as a grossly unjust punishment by God, and are understandably disturbed by the concept of God burning people in a lake of fire for all eternity. Because it is one of the more common arguments against Christianity, and also because many Christians, myself included, have a difficult time coming to terms with the doctrine, I thought it would be good to try to develop a coherent understanding of what the Bible teaches about hell that upholds God's goodness, love, righteousness, and justice. After quite a bit of study and contemplation, this is what I have developed. I post it here not as a definitive statement on what hell actually is, but as my thoughts on it as I studied many of the relevant passages. I want you to look at it critically and find flaws in the logic, if there are any. I will seek to defend my understanding, and anyone else who has supporting ideas please feel free to post them as well. Thanks in advance for your help.
Here is a quick sketch of what I am thinking:
Wailing and gnashing of teeth: "Wailing" is a Jewish practice of loud mourning over something or someone. "Gnashing of teeth" is either intense suffering/grief or intense anger.
Fire is a symbol of God's judgment all through Scripture. As fire consumes into ashes, so God's judgment upon the wicked rebellious dead would consume them and bring them to utter ruin.
Jesus also referred to it as outer darkness. In Hebrew, the word for darkness holds the connotation of twisting, or turning, away from the light. So the judgment would be for those who turn/twist away from the light... "God is light".
The worm does not die typified the unending corruption of the soul consumed with sin.
The Greek word we translate torment literally means "to try against the stone", a metaphor taken from metal working, where the metal being heated would be taken from the fire and rubbed against a test stone to determine it's purity. That word eventually came to also be used of the torture officials used to pry confessions from those they believed to be criminals. In the case of Revelation, the combination of fire and torment could very easily be looked at as a reference to the metal working practice, not the practice of Roman authorities.
The second death is a direct reference back to Genesis 2:17, where God tells Adam that the day he eats of the forbidden tree he will "surely die"... the text literally reads "die die". In other words, die twice: physical death (the separation of the soul from the body) and spiritual death (separation of relationship/communion with God).
So all the different references together, when taken as metaphors, indicate that hell is a place of God's judgment where the soul will be brought to ruin, intense sorrow and grief will be common, a place of turning/twisting away from God's light, where sins corruption does not cease, where they will be tested for purity "day and night" (yet because of sins ongoing corruption they will never become pure), rightly identified as the final spiritual separation from communion with God. Not a burning furnace where people are tortured by flames, immortal fireproof worms, and intense darkness. Yet more like a prison for those who will never be reformed from their sinfulness, who continually twist/turn away from God's light. It is the ruin of the soul's purpose of loving communion with God. It is the quarantine of those contaminated by sin from those who have been purified by the blood of Jesus Christ. What exactly do the lost actually sense/experience? I don't know.
Could it be that the very existence of hell, where the corruption of sin goes on in those who reject God, not be an additional source of wisdom for those who choose to obey God? Does the constant testing of the soul for purity, yet always finding sins corruption, not reveal the justice of God for their continued confinement?
I have also been wrestling with this doctrine because I am currently leading a Bible study in the book of Revelation. Again, thank you in advance for your corrections and insights.
At the same time I suppose one could say that God may be able to torture a soul in a fiery hell for eternity, or pretty it up and say that God might consign a soul to eternal torture, but to be fair, that doesn't mean He's going to do it.
Food for thought: what we imagine that God will do is closely related to who we say He is, and what we imagine of that which we worship is closely related to who we are.
To me, "who do you say that I am?" isn't just a question asked once of Peter, but rather, it's a question of such importance that the earliest Christians thought it should be included in the centerpiece of all scripture.
That being the case, the question: "why is it important?" might also be very important.
I think I understand what you are trying to say... it's just that the whole point of sanctification is our being conformed more and more to the image of Jesus Christ. The Bible is meant to play a role in that, and what our understanding says about ourselves is far less important to me than what the Bible actually says about the character and nature of God. Scripture can and does reveal who we really are, but it also reveals something of who God really is.
So here's what is wrong with this concept of an everlasting hell:
It is unjust!
I'll tell you why: Because Christ took the sins of every man, woman & child upon Himself and took our curse. How long did Christ suffer? About 6 hrs.
Did He suffer forever?
No!
Then why should one sinner be tormented forever when Christ took every sin in the world upon Himself and yet only suffered 6 hours???
Yes???
You don't find it the least bit disturbing, or in any way unjust, that God would torture people for all eternity with the equivalent of a enormous blowtorch?
This is the type of question I have been asked by nonbelievers, and it made me stop and seriously consider hell in that sense for the first time. People, REAL PEOPLE, perhaps someone that you know and love... screaming and burning and begging for mercy and burning and cooking and and screaming in untold agony... forever, without end... while God keeps the flames burning. Is this God's justice?
Yet this concept of hell is a stumbling block to thinking people coming to believe in Jesus
I think this literal interpretation of hell is misrepresenting the heart of God,
I think Jesus intended his descriptions of hell to be understood metaphorically.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I had never really allowed myself to meditate on what the unsaved will actually experience in the literal form of hell.
Preachers and teachers rarely ever teach on hell,
and when they do they do not tend to stress the actual fires of hell,
but of the justice of God punishing sin, which I agree is a good and just thing. Yet when I took the time to really think, to really meditate upon what a literal understanding of the lake of fire meant...
I agree, I am just not convinced that a literal burning lake of fire cooking people while immortal fireproof worms eat at their bodies in dense darkness is supposed to be the understanding we gain after prayerful thoughtful study.
I did not intend to convey the idea that fire is never used in it's literal sense in Scripture, and I will reword my OP in order to correct that misunderstanding. Fire is used metaphorically in Scripture, though. 1Cor 3:11-15 and Heb 12:29 come to mind after a quick search of the NT. Both of those also happen to be in relation to judgment.
Grave worms, in the connotation of death (as opposed to the worm that produces scarlet), eat the flesh of the dead body, aiding in the process of decomposition and corruption. I don't think my understanding is a stretch. Can we at least agree that Jesus was not trying to speak of literal immortal fire proof worms in His references to hell?
I don't think any of those references contradicts my understanding.
If I thought that way I think disturbed would be the clinical diagnosis of my shrink. It did bring a disturbing image to mind.You don't find it the least bit disturbing, or in any way unjust, that God would torture people for all eternity with the equivalent of a enormous blowtorch?
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