The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Major1]

then your not the one the questions were directed at...just saying

Granted. But does that mean you will not answer the question my friend and state the Bible verses that would verify your opinion.

 

[razzelflabben]

Granted. But does that mean you will not answer the question my friend and state the Bible verses that would verify your opinion.

what question? I agree with what you said, I was asking the varying times in hell crowd how that would work, like, who decide how long people are in hell for, does jail time on earth qualify as time served, etc.? I agree with you and the passages you presented so I'm not really sure what question you want me to answer and what additional scriptures you want from me.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ever is a long time, so I'm not sure. All I know is that I saw it
as justice. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the angry God. What did bother me though was love as from us to Him. I asked God how there could be real love if He had to
keep us every now and then viewing the people in the lake of
fire. Used to think that we would be holy and incapable of sin, but if that is so, then why have us look at the people burning?

sacrifce? a war memory? such as victory over the sinners?

To me, if there is an everlasting contempt...fire...punishment
that happens to the wicked, and that time is only temporary/at least clear into the new earth events, then promises to the church would have to be on hold until the time of burning people in the lake of fire had ended. And I can't come up with
a way as to how some can get out earlier than others. There is
no mention of a mid area holding point. These people are said as to shall not inherit the kingdom of God. God will act as He
never knew them when He tells them to "Depart" into this
fire. The sins they committed can only be redeemed by blood.
The Lord no longer has any to give and neither will people that
get changed to eternal bodies. So, how would any of those
wicked people ever stop paying for their sins? Just like the
fallen angels - they will have no one to redeem them.

Most of us here do not truly know the horrors or pain involved in actual physical torture. Torture to one of our soldiers is disgusting and sick. It does not speak of God's goodness or judgment. Anyways, I want you to picture what it is like to be tortured for an entire day. Now, I want you to think about that for a whole week. Now try it for a year. But you want this to go on for all eternity? How is that loving and good? How is that justice? Where did man commit sin against God for all eternity?

For what made you believe in ECT? Was it simply because your church teaches it? Were you led by the goodness and fair justice of ECT that is true? Surely not. Most I have debated ECT with say they do not even like the idea of hell. In other words, their own belief goes against their very instinct of what they know to be good and right. But go ahead and believe in something that you cannot explain morally. I will choose to believe that the LORD is fair and good (whereby I will be able to explain that simply to people).


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[vinsight4u]

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[Bible Highlighter]

While I believe the Lake of Fire will destroy or annihiate the wicked after the Jugment, I do believe there is an actual physical hell that awaits the wicked when they die. It is just not a torture chamber in flames but more like a really bad prison. I also believe the amount of conscious time they spend down in hell will be limited, as well. Why? Because God is love; And God is good. God is about mercy.


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[razzelflabben]

While I believe the Lake of Fire will destroy or annihiate the wicked after the Jugment, I do believe there is an actual physical hell that awaits the wicked when they die. It is just not a torture chamber in flames but more like a really bad prison. I also believe the amount of conscious time they spend down in hell will be limited, as well. Why? Because God is love; And God is good. God is about mercy.


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I'm still waiting for you to show how eternal hell being the consequence of sin is somehow immoral....I have a feeling I will never get an answer which says a lot.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[aiki]

In fact, I used to believe in ECT. But Scripture and adhering to common basic morality has shown me othewise; For CI or Conditional Immortality is true.

Well, see, this is an oblique personal insult (just like the jibe about reality in your last post to me). It implies that since I don't agree with you, I don't adhere to "common basic morality." That's a lot of ad hominem baloney.

As for not continuing: Even Jesus essentially said if people do not receive our gospel message, we are to shake the dust off our feets and move on. Granted, I am not saying CI vs. ECT is a salvation issue, but I am saying that if I believe I have led a horse to water, I cannot force it to drink of that water if it is refusing to do so.

It seems pretty obvious something else is motivating your refusal to discuss this matter with me. Razzelflabben and Der Alter are just as intractable in their views as I, but you haven't cut short discussions with either of them.

In any case, you're right: you won't drink from the water I'm offering, or vice versa. That's okay. The traditional, biblical view of ECT has been well-defended in this thread without my having to weigh in much at all.

Selah.

 

[Radrook]

and yet you have not challenged my claims of consequence either...

The consequence for sin is death.

 

[razzelflabben]

The consequence for sin is death.

yep...how is that a challenge from those that do not believe in an eternal hell?

 

[Radrook]

yep...how is that a challenge from those that do not believe in an eternal hell?

Well, it contradicts ECT.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well, it contradicts ECT.

how so?

 

[Major1]

what question? I agree with what you said, I was asking the varying times in hell crowd how that would work, like, who decide how long people are in hell for, does jail time on earth qualify as time served, etc.? I agree with you and the passages you presented so I'm not really sure what question you want me to answer and what additional scriptures you want from me.

My apologies. My question was in response to your comment that the A/C and false prophet were demons. If I am in error please forgive me.

My question was where in Scripture do you base that opinion.

As for who will decide the length in hell and so on that you posted, it will be the Lord Jesus Christ as the Bible says all judgment is given over to Him.

Length is not the question as the Bible says forever and ever will the wicked be tormented in the flame.

 

[razzelflabben]

My apologies. My question was in response to your comment that the A/C and false prophet were demons. If I am in error please forgive me.

I didn't say that, that was someone else. As I understand Rev. the antichrist is a human being controlled so to speak by satan...I have repeatedly pointed out that false prophets are human beings.

My question was where in Scripture do you base that opinion.

since it isn't my opinion I have no idea, it is someone elses opinion.

As for who will decide the length in hell and so on that you posted, it will be the Lord Jesus Christ as the Bible says all judgment is given over to Him.

I agree, but that then means if He says eternity, we cannot question it, which is the antithesis of what some here want to accept. Thus, my questions for them.

Length is not the question as the Bible says forever and ever will the wicked be tormented in the flame.

yep you and I agree on that, which is why I asked the question of those that think there is a varying length of time...see, that concept simply doesn't make any sense no matter how it is sliced from the standpoint of scripture.

 

[mmksparbud]

so, reconcile for me the passages that tell us that hell is eternal...you still haven't done that to any extent using context and translation issues and the like. I have heard (not sure now if it was you or another poster) try to reason yourself into the position you take but what I am talking about is using literary rules for comprehension in order to reconcile all passages which you claim here to be doing but have lacked posts that do that.

You want me to reconcile eternal hell with what?? We've gone over each of those eternal hell passages and have gone over the wording, that eternal doesn't always mean eternal, forever doesn't always mean forever---they've been explained over and over---Is Sodom still burning in her everlasting fire?--No--no fire still going. Is that forest fire that burn millions of acres that was described as unquenchable now out? Yes---as have buildings that have gone up in flames that were described as unquenchable, just means it cant be put by any means, until it dies of its own. How many times do we have to go through this stuff just to have you ask about reconciling eternal hell passages??? Don't know what you want. it is pretty plain. You want to believe in eternal hell---go right ahead. We will both find out pretty soon. I don't want to have God ask me why I would believe the lies of Satan about His character instead of what He himself said. And if I am wrong and you sre right??---So what. He will do what He will do. If He should choose to punish me forever---He's God and that is that--if I am right (which I firmly believe)--He would be very sad that I would believe He is a barbaric despot who torments people forever over a finite crime. It would mean I do not know Him, and therefore He will not know me.

 

[mmksparbud]

Peace be with you.

Today I present evidence For the case of Eternal Torture in Hell through the Testimony of Saint Teresa of Jesus of Avila from Spain of the Period 1515-1582 of the Roman Catholic Faith.

Teresa of Jesus was born in Avila in Spain on the 28th of March 1515 and died in Alba de Tormes on the 4th of October 1582.

On one occasion she had the vision of Hell which she recounts like this in her Autobiography:

“One day while I was in prayer, I found myself all of a sudden transported entirely into Hell. I understood that God wanted me to see the place that the demons had prepared for me, and I that merited it with my sins. It was a vision of very little time, but it also lived on for many years, it seems I am not able to ever forget it.

The entrance appeared to be a very long and narrow tunnel, similar to an oven very low, dark, and cramped; the soil was foul mud, full of filthy reptiles. In the distance, on the wall, there was a cavity carved out like a niche, and in it I felt tightly confined.

And that which I then suffered exceeds every human imagination, nor does it seem possible to give even an idea because they are things which are indescribable. It is enough to know that how much I said, compared to the reality, makes it seem like a pleasant thing.

“I was feeling in my soul a fire that I do not know how to describe, while intolerable pains horrendously tore at my body. In my life I have suffered very much, some of the most serious, according to doctors, to undergo on earth, because my nerves were so contracted to the point of rendering me crippled, without saying the many others of various kinds, caused to me in part by the demon.

“Anyway they are not even able to be compared with how much I suffered at that time, especially that the thought of that torment would have had to be without end and without any mitigation. But even this was nothing in comparison to the agony of the soul. It was an oppression, an anguish, a sadness so profound, such a vivid and desperate pain that I do not know how to express myself.

To say that they suffer continual agonies of death is inadequate, because at least in death it seems that the life is ripped from others, whereas here it is the same soul who makes himself into pieces. The fact is that I cannot find expressions to neither speak of that interior fire nor to make understandable the desperation which topped these horrible torments. I did not see who made me suffer them, but I felt myself burn and be lacerated, although the worst torment was the internal fire and desperation.

“It was a pestilential (fetid) place, in which there was no longer any hope of comfort, nor space for one to sit or lay out, reinserted as I was in that hole made in the wall. Horrible to see oneself, the sides were weighing down upon me, and HELL I felt as though suffocated. There was no light, but pitch black darkness; and as much as that could have given difficulty to sight one was able to see equally well regardless of the absence of light: something which I was not able to comprehend.”

God bless you.

This is one of the biggest reasons to declare that there is no everlasting burning hell. That this could go on for a time which God determines is one thing, but not for eternity. That is obscene.

 

[mmksparbud]

what question? I agree with what you said, I was asking the varying times in hell crowd how that would work, like, who decide how long people are in hell for, does jail time on earth qualify as time served, etc.? I agree with you and the passages you presented so I'm not really sure what question you want me to answer and what additional scriptures you want from me.

You still on that? I've said over and over and so have the scriptures-----ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS---and since God alone knows the works of anyone--it is determined by God. God alone determines time, intensity of pain, anhything else. What's so hard to comprehend about that?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Bible Highlighter]

Well, see, this is an oblique personal insult (just like the jibe about reality in your last post to me). It implies that since I don't agree with you, I don't adhere to "common basic morality." That's a lot of ad hominem baloney.

Well, my ultimate goal is to attack the belief and not the person. So my apologies if it appeared that I was attacking you. That was not my intention. But if you feel your belief on ECT is moral and good as you say, then explain it to me. But I know you can't. Hence, why talking about this further is going to go nowhere.

It seems pretty obvious something else is motivating your refusal to discuss this matter with me. Razzelflabben and Der Alter are just as intractable in their views as I, but you haven't cut short discussions with either of them.

So you never talked with someone whereby you felt you had to stop because nothing you said really mattered?

In any case, you're right: you won't drink from the water I'm offering, or vice versa. That's okay. The traditional, biblical view of ECT has been well-defended in this thread without my having to weigh in much at all.

Selah.

ECT has been well defended? How so? I have been asking ECT Proponents for the past few years about how their belief is just, fair, and good and they really cannot explain it to me. Some will say it is a mystery. Others in ECT will even tell me they don't like the idea of hell. Neither do I. Others have tried to come up with how God needs to punish people based on his holy and eternal character. That sinning against an eternal God is eternal punishment. But they really cannot explain it anymore in detail and or show how that is fair, just, and good.

Anyways, I think it is best we move on; And that we should simply agree to disagree.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Do you agree that the wheat and tares/chaff time is close to
the time of the new earth? It tells us - at the end of the world.
As in this judgment/separation happens before the earth flees
away. The wicked dead are raised after heaven and earth have fled.

Matthew 25 is about the time given at the end section of chapter 24.
heaven and earth shall pass away
but of that day...knoweth no man

chapter 25 - then shall

These are dead people like being spoken o fin Hebrews 10 as to died without mercy.
These people are the nations that are gathered and get divided up. The goats will be cut asunder/beaten and then go to the eternal fire.

You want to make it out as if God loves everyone for ever and
ever. That is not how it is. We are told that He shall wipe the
tears from their eyes. not all eyes

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This can't apply to the new earth time at the end of Isaiah
66 as there the wicked men are seen as abhorring to the flesh
people and their worm dieth not.

I am preparing an End TImes Chronology (Which will be for another thread).


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