The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Neogaia777]

Then you choose to ignore the verses that state they will be tormented with fire and brimstone forever. You can choose to believe whatever you want. Nowhere does the bible say hell is a "cutting off from the sunlight of the spirit. (God)"
It is either everlasting torment in fire and brimstone or it isn't, we can't go making up our own versions of what it is when the scriptures say what it is.

God would not be just if he weren't handing them over to what they decided or want or desire, or decided to want and desire (in their hearts)...

God Bless!

 

[mmksparbud]

There are three Greek words translated "life"

'
And the words "everlasting and eternal", and "unquenchable" do not always mean forever and can not be out as has been shown.

.

 

[mmksparbud]

God would not be just if he weren't handing them over to what they decided or want or desire, or decided to want and desire (in their hearts)...

God Bless!

Right, and it is their desire, what they want, is to be tormented in hell for eternity??!!! We do not get what we desire-we get what God decides to give us--the wicked according to their works, the righteous to eternal life. Nowhere is eternal life given to the wicked so they can burn forever.

 

[Neogaia777]

Right, and it is their desire, what they want, is to be tormented in hell for eternity??!!! We do not get what we desire-we get what God decides to give us--the wicked according to their works, the righteous to eternal life. Nowhere is eternal life given to the wicked so they can burn forever.

And please, educate me, who are the wicked...? And what are their works, or what will their works be? And, educate me please, "who" are the righteous (not self-righteous) and what are their works? Someone who's heart is wicked, because they chose it to be, if their heart is truly wicked, and that never changes before they die, will not do good works, and many of the self-righteous are actually wicked...

So, tell me who are righteous and who are wicked and the difference between them please...?

(I'll give you a clue) The righteous, will do good deeds and righteous, (not self-righteous), "acts" not be observed or noticed or recognized by men, and not for selfish, self-centered gain, or reasons...

Whether those who go to a place to be tormented by what they choose in life are there "forever" I do not claim to know, I know it will last until a new heavens (and hell) and new earth come to be, however long that is...

God Bless!

 

[mark kennedy]

That is what it's saying. Please elaborate.

I see, with some reservation, some ambiguity in the text, not that I want to dismiss your objections out of hand. I have struggled with various doctrines over the years and always the traditional teaching of the church I accept in till I find a sound reason to question it.

I take the narrative of Song of Songs as literal now, it has nothing to do with sex and Solomon was an observer to the events described. I think the allergorizing of the text is an expositional wrong turn.

Likewise I see the issue here to be God's omnipotence and the rationality of a creation God cannot undo. I am looking at the language of the text and understand that the fire burns eternally but I'm left with all but one text that cannot be reconciled to annilation in the lake of fire. I do not disagee that the text suggests eternal suffering of the children of perdition. However I see clear signs of an alternative reading because the antecedent of day and night being the smoke and fire not the occupants. I'm not telling you what to think and I see your point I just reserve the right to remain unconvinced at least to a point.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mmksparbud]

And please, educate me, who are the wicked...? And what are their works, or what will their works be? And, educate me please, "who" are the righteous (not self-righteous) and what are their works? Someone who's heart is wicked, because they chose it to be, if their heart is truly wicked, and that never changes before they die, will not do good works, and many of the self-righteous are actually wicked...

So, tell me who are righteous and who are wicked and the difference between them please...?

(I'll give you a clue) The righteous, will do good deeds and righteous, (not self-righteous), "acts" not be observed or noticed or recognized by men, and not for selfish, self-centered gain, or reasons...

Whether those who go to a place to be tormented by what they choose in life are there "forever" I do not claim to know, I know it will last until a new heavens (and hell) and new earth come to be, however long that is...

God Bless!

God alone judges the heart. For people can do good works but not out of real love. Many times, we never know who the wicked are---
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Neogaia777]

God alone judges the heart. For people can do good works but not out of real love. Many times, we never know who the wicked are---
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I've always been curious about that particular line of scripture... Doing the will of the Father...? And the casting out devils (demons) and wonderful works? Does that pertain to those who have embraced supernatural powers and abilities that he is going to say he doesn't know? Or not? Is the supernatural no longer in the Father's will for us to do or have "if" we are his, or not?

God Bless!

 

[mmksparbud]

I've always been curious about that particular line of scripture... Doing the will of the Father...? And the casting out devils (demons) and wonderful works? Does that pertain to those who have embraced supernatural powers and abilities that he is going to say he doesn't know? Or not? Is the supernatural no longer in the Father's will for us to do or have "if" we are his, or not?

God Bless!

To me, it is that we have the bible, it tells us of God, and His basic way of life. It is us trying to fit into God's lifestyle instead of us trying to fit God into our lifestyle. Everyone has that little voice test is directing them, they know when they are doing wrong---do they listen, or ignore it. More often than not, we ignore it and do what we want then beg God to get us out of trouble--been there, done that. It's like crying and begging God to tell us what to do when He already has told you in His word. Like when this friend of mine asked me to pray for her as she was having a hard time deciding whether to marry this guy or not. She could hardly sleep, or eat or work. She didn't know what God wanted her to do. All I could say was---God has already told you what to do---do not be unequally yoked. Why are you suffering with a decision you don't have to beg God for an answer for? He already gave you the answer.-----Yes, but he is soooo wonderful--yes but, yes but---we are very good at that.
He has told you how to behave---but we want to justify the decisions we make that go contrary to His stated will. Do not commit adultery--but this woman treats me so well and my wife is a shrew---it's just $20 dollars and I will pay it back someday, and I need a new pair of shoes--
Supernatural? God says to nit go to mediums and stay away from sorcery, the telling of fortunes. Mess around with that stuff and you're entering into the realm of Satan and putting yourself in his path. He says to resist the devil. Casting out demons is different. You are using the name of Jesus Christ to do so. God hears when the name of Jesus is used. However, you have to be careful of the why you're doing this, and there is not one time when any of the believers who caste out demons or healed in Jesus name who then took money for doing so. It can aklso go back to you can do good things for the wrong reasons. Is it out of pride, to show off, to seem important, what is the heart? God knows it.

 

[Neogaia777]

To me, it is that we have the bible, it tells us of God, and His basic way of life. It is us trying to fit into God's lifestyle instead of us trying to fit God into our lifestyle. Everyone has that little voice test is directing them, they know when they are doing wrong---do they listen, or ignore it. More often than not, we ignore it and do what we want then beg God to get us out of trouble--been there, done that. It's like crying and begging God to tell us what to do when He already has told you in His word.

Yeah, me too... But, I think that is how many people start out or begin, and I think it is important for people like us to remember that for other's sakes, don't you?

He has told you how to behave---but we want to justify the decisions we make that go contrary to His stated will. Do not commit adultery--but this woman treats me so well and my wife is a shrew---it's just $20 dollars and I will pay it back someday, and I need a new pair of shoes--

Yeah, I smoke cigarettes and I want to quit, but haven't been able to thus far, but other than that, I have no other habits (anymore) not trying to justify it or myself, but, because it is such a difficult thing for me to do away with, I have instead tried to focus on things that are not, but perhaps were, or used to be, more difficult for me, but became less difficult, I think cause I was disciplined by the Lord concerning the other things, he's said nothing about my smoking habit (yet)... Anyways, with his help and correction and guidance and direction, I have been able to do away with a lot of sin, especially sinful behavior, attitudes, and actions and much, strong temptations, most of which, that I never committed that he has worked with me and helped me do away with, so, again with him with me, I have made a great deal of progress and have come a long way, I feel, concerning sin... But, not "perfect"...

My ex-wife... What do I say...? We still talk and I still love her very much, and I really feel that there is really "no other" for me, but, man oh man, is she, "something else", and, after being on my own for a while, I don't know if I can live with her and "deal" with her on a permanent full-time basis, and I'll just leave it at that...

Also, I had to borrow 40 dollars from my step-father last month, but, I am planning on paying him back when I get paid, and told him that, and cause I'm on my own now, that I promised him this would be the last time, and that I was going to be much more responsible and have my life together from here on out...

Supernatural? God says to nit go to mediums and stay away from sorcery, the telling of fortunes. Mess around with that stuff and you're entering into the realm of Satan and putting yourself in his path. He says to resist the devil. Casting out demons is different. You are using the name of Jesus Christ to do so. God hears when the name of Jesus is used. However, you have to be careful of the why you're doing this, and there is not one time when any of the believers who caste out demons or healed in Jesus name who then took money for doing so. It can aklso go back to you can do good things for the wrong reasons. Is it out of pride, to show off, to seem important, what is the heart? God knows it.

Yes, the reasons and motives and not taking money (selfish reasons) would be very important, and doing good for the wrong or selfish reasons (another I thought of, that you didn't mention, that is more subtle, that I can be prone to at times), is if your doing it to try to pay for, or make up for, the bad that you have done in the past, or are currently doing... I have learned that that kind of motive is also wrong... For Jesus paid for it and you/me/I can't, and me/I might be trying to take away from what (all) that he did (for me)...

Thanks for the talk,

God Bless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Assumptions and suppositions. Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. ​

The preposition Jesus used is ἐν/en which means "in." "In this flame!" not behind, beside, near etc.

I could be standing in front of my car and I could say, "I am happy in this car." and still be grammatically correct in saying that.
I could be standing in front of a burning building that was on fire and I could say, "I am tormented in this flame." because of the intense heat of it.
Your pre-supposition on Luke 16:24 is flawed because you cannot explain how torturing the wicked in extreme amounts of pain within fire for thousands of years in hell is loving and good. In other words, it ignores God's goodness or morality. My pre-supposition on Luke 16:24 comes from understanding that God is loving and good even in His judgments. My pre-supposition on Luke 16:24 is consistent with the rest of Scripture whereby I do not see God torturing others for long extended periods of time sadistically. My pre-supposition comes from the fact that God's goodness and judgments can be explained and understood. For even Scripture states that we can understand God's judgments. But whenever I ask an ECT proponent to explain the goodness of God in light of their belief, they freeze up like a deer caught up in the headlights of an oncoming car.

If Jesus did not mean exactly what He said, what do you think Jesus was really saying? I wonder why all of the native Greek speaking church fathers, who refer to the story of Lazarus and the rich man, considered the account to be factual?

Yes. I do consider the story of "Lazarus and the Rich-man" to be a literal and real account of the after-life. But like I said, this literal narrative does not support one being tortured in flames, though. I am a "Dualistic Conditionalist" under the umbrella of "Conditional Immortality." (And I differ slightly in my belief than other Dualistic Conditionalists, too). Anyways, most "Conditional Immortality Proponents" believe in soul sleep or annihiationism after death. But I don't believe that. I believe Abraham's bosom and hades (hell or the place of torment) are real places (but I do not believe hell is described as a torture chamber in flames).

225 BC LXX Isa 34:14 And devils shall meet with satyrs, and they shall cry one to the other: there shall satyrs rest, having found for themselves a place of rest.
1917 JPS Isa 34:14 And the wild-cats shall meet with the jackals, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; yea, the night-monster shall repose there, and shall find her a place of rest.
​

It is actually quite amusing when the Modern Translations try to add the word "jackal" to my Bible when that is not even close to the original word used. For example: The KJV uses the words "dragon's well" in Nehemiah 2:13. Yet, certain Modern Translations say, "jackal's well." It makes sense that dragons (of the past) would live in caves and or underground sub chambers where water wells would go into. But a jackal's well? Jackals are like dogs. Jackals do not live in caves or underground wells. That is absolutely silly. God's Word (the KJV) gets this translation right (like it always does).

Matt 10:28 and Jam 4:19, where is the verse which says that a/any soul has been or will be destroyed?

Yes. Just re-read Matthew 10:28 again. It compares the destruction of the physical body with the destruction of BOTH the body and SOUL.

2 Thess 1:9 out-of-context, "apolummi from the presence of God." That which has been destroyed, i.e. no longer exists cannot be "from the presence of God" or anything else.

Again. This passage is not talking about the after-math. It is talking about the verb or the action of "destruction" taking place (which is away from the presence of the Lord).

Heb 10:39 We are not of them who draw back unto perdition [ἀπώλεια/apoleia]. Here are a few verses where ἀπώλεια/apoleia does not mean "destruction."Mat 26:8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?[ἀπώλεια/apoleia]
Mar 14:4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste [ἀπώλεια/apoleia] of the ointment made?
Act 25:16 To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die, [ἀπώλεια/apoleia] before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.
2 Pet 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious [ἀπώλεια/apoleia] ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. ​

But the Bible has homonyms within it. The word meaning for destruction also can be used in reference to actual destruction, too.
But I prefer looking at the English words because I did not grow up writing or speaking Greek in Biblical times. Nobody has. Nobody is truly familar with this language unlike the people from that time. Folks are only making educated guesses as to what the Hebrew and Greek are saying based on previous scholars educated guesses.

I don't do long copy/pastes of prewritten arguments and long lists of scripture references

Scripture is Scripture regardless of who quotes it.
Yes, I did later look over that list, and I do not agree with some of them so as to defend "Conditional Immortality."
But there are some in that list that do defend "Conditional Immortality", though. That's the point. For you to look thru the Scriptures and check it out for yourself. If you can't be bothered then it serves no purpose to have this kind of debate.

Your opinion of what it is. Morally in accordance to God's creation, then it is not logical or true." and "not logical or true."

Again, this is an avoidance of what I believe is a flaw in your belief. You cannot explain God's goodness or the morality behind ECT.
God gave us hearts and minds to discern good and evil and what is right and wrong.
He wouldn't want us to shut off our moral compasses over a false misunderstanding on the Bible.

When does the scripture I quoted say the wailing and gnashing of teeth stops and those cast into the furnace or outer darkness are destroyed? I wonder why Jesus omitted those important points?

Where does it say the wailing and gnashing of teeth goes on in the "Lake of Fire" for all eternity?

As for outer darkness: Well, that's a completely different animal (or I should say "place").
Outer darkness is where the uprofitable servant (sinful Christian) goes temporally until they are judged and cast into the Lake of Fire.
Outer darkness is most likely in the realm of the dead (Sheol) but it is not the same place where the rich-man went.

Interjecting your own assumptions/presuppositions into the text. The verse says "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" not "destroyed away from the presence"

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

Again, the ACT of destruction that has everlasting consequences takes place away from the presence of the Lord.
We realize that everlasting is speaking of consequences because this is common to see elsewhere in Scripture.
Take for example: Hebrews 6:2. It says there is "Eternal Judgment." Does this mean God will be continually judging people for all eternity? Surely not.



...

 

[razzelflabben]

It's the same as the word "torment."

yet repeatedly several of us have shown you it is NOT the same word...

 

[razzelflabben]

Me, too. But if you are in a conscious state of torment forever, then you are conscious, alive, forever. And you can play footsie all you want with "conscious", "alive" --whatever. If you're being tormented forever and are aware of it, you are conscious and alive. And you will not convince me otherwise.

so you base your whole idea of hell on the fact that you can't understand that there are two different deaths talked about in scripture. How sad...I hope you don't mind, but I have been praying for you to be able to see that the first death and the second death are two completely different things as per scriptures account. As such, we cannot assume that one death is exactly like the second since they are different.

 

[razzelflabben]

"Consequence"--who the heck cares whether you call it consequence, punishment, reward, tidily winks---Jesus called it punishment and that is good enough for me.

we have talked about this and you still refuse to understand. It matters because it goes to the character of God as per the eternal torment described in the bible. You see, if hell is the consequence of sin, then God's character is NOT questioned by eternal torment. If on the other hand it is God torturing or punishing others then His character is brought into question. As to the word punishment, we talked about it and you refuse to accept what it says so let's parse it yet a different way. Like torment and torture, all torture is torment but not all torment is torture. Likewise, all torment is punishing, but not all punishment is torment. IOW's we have to look at more than just the word the translators decided to us and look at word meaning and context. when I showed this in scripture, no one, not a single person challenged the conclusion that hell is a consequence of sin not a punishment handed out by God for sins committed.

Torment is being done to billions of people forever! Call it what you want. Who said hell is a preventive measure--I didn't. I also never said that because God said He takes no pleasure in the wicked dying that they do not die! I said If he doesn't even want to have them killed---what makes you think He would want to torment them forever instead??

how many times have I said that He doesn't want man tormented, but it is the consequence of sin therefore just the natural law of sin and a holy God.

As for Isaiah 53--I've heard that argument before--Isa 53:10 AndG2532 the lord G2962 willedG1014 to cleanseG2511 himG1473 of theG3588 beating.G4127 IfG1437 you should offerG1325 forG4012 a sin offering G266 the thing G3588 for your life,G5590 G147
It comes as no surprise you bring that one up. If you think that God was up there just pleased as punch over His only Son being tortured---enjoy yourself with that thought.

lol...here is the KJV of the passage....Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


Notice what He was pleased about...it wasn't the suffering of Christ that pleased Him but the willingness to Love others unto righteousness. I did a whole big long study on this instead of just dismissing it as you are doing here. Actually the entire study included suffering in general. You see, suffering isn't a sin, it isn't even a bad thing necessarily. If it has a purpose it can and in the hands of God is a very healing thing. Something that most people have no understanding of. In fact, James tells us to consider it pure joy when we suffer. Pure joy...how odd that scripture would admonish us to consider it pure joy to suffer. why? Because of what it produces....(lots of passages there) Likewise, as the consequence of sin, hell has a purpose, the purpose is a cleansing as you have been shown by others on this thread. You act as most people believe that suffering is somehow an evil thing that has no place in the life of man...yet scripture says it has a place and a purpose and is not evil. In fact, we are warned that suffering will be part of the believers life on this earth. If suffering has a purpose and is part of a fallen world, why then would we assume the fallen would not know suffering? consider this...suffering came into the world because of sin, without sin suffering wouldn't exist (according to scripture anyway) So, why then would those that love wickedness avoid the suffering that came as a result of their sins? their love for the wickedness? Please at least attempt to answer some of my questions instead of just continuing to ignore them and redirecting us to your bias.

I happen to think otherwise, I happen to think He hurt, physically hurt from it, I happen to think it hurt Him to see Him for 33 1/2 years in other than glory and splendor. But they both knew the end result.

He did hurt, of this I have no doubt, but He also rejoiced and took pleasure in what was coming as a result of that suffering. That is the point.

Yes, God is love and mercy--but He is also just. And sin demands justice. It will be paid, "according to their works.

see previous discussion about justice and God.

 

[razzelflabben]

Right, and it is their desire, what they want, is to be tormented in hell for eternity??!!! We do not get what we desire-we get what God decides to give us--the wicked according to their works, the righteous to eternal life. Nowhere is eternal life given to the wicked so they can burn forever.

so in your version of God He is not just? See, scripture tells us plainly that God is just. That means that God carries out the law without partiality. IOW's HE does NOT play favorites. If God decides for us, then He is not just because He gets to pick according to whatever law He deems...on the other hand if God is just, the decision is based on the law, remember, consequences based on the natural law of sin and a holy God...without partiality, that meaning without changing the law according to His whim...that simply is not the God you are describing in this post...

 

[mmksparbud]

so you base your whole idea of hell on the fact that you can't understand that there are two different deaths talked about in scripture. How sad...I hope you don't mind, but I have been praying for you to be able to see that the first death and the second death are two completely different things as per scriptures account. As such, we cannot assume that one death is exactly like the second since they are different.

Who says I don't understand there are 2 deaths? It's pretty plain--- and of course, they are different. The 1st death comes to all, (except those translated) the 2nd to the lost in the lake of fire. From the 1st, God will resurrect all. From the 2nd, there will be no resurrection, no awakening from. There is no such thing as life away from Jesus Christ---no suspended animation for all eternity away from God--they die permaenently, eternally. It's eternal death vesus eternal life for the saved. You have the right to believe whatever you want about that. This happens to be what I believe the bible says. I pray you will see the true character of God.

 

[razzelflabben]

Who says I don't understand there are 2 deaths? It's pretty plain--- and of course, they are different. The 1st death comes to all, (except those translated) the 2nd to the lost in the lake of fire. From the 1st, God will resurrect all. From the 2nd, there will be no resurrection, no awakening from. There is no such thing as life away from Jesus Christ---no suspended animation for all eternity away from God--they die permaenently, eternally. It's eternal death vesus eternal life for the saved. You have the right to believe whatever you want about that. This happens to be what I believe the bible says. I pray you will see the true character of God.

Wow, so now you finally agree with me and others here that there is eternal life and eternal death...shoooooo that is a relief....so now, the question is what is eternal death.

Got a question for you...if eternal life is life with Christ, what is eternal death? Wouldn't it be the opposite of life with Christ? You know the spiritual life and death...if life in the flesh is consciousness, death is the opposite, right? In the Spirit, if life is with Christ, what would be the opposite? Death-separation, right?

 

[jeager016]

The source does refer to 33000+ total "Christian" denominations

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

^^ 33,000 + denominations of Christianity all reading the SAME book.

Which one is right?

This makes for well visited site like this one.
It is enlightening to read and comment on these posts.
We have the Westboro Baptists that preach hate, the Jehovah's Witnesses who
preach they alone know "the truth" and refer to one another as being "in the Truth"
and the Pentecostals that play with rattlesnakes to demonstrate "faith".
If bitten it's a test from God, refuse medical care to prove faith that God won't
let them die, if they do die then "God" took them the heaven.
When they win they loose or loose to win.
So which denomination of Christianity is the right one?

 

[Achilles6129]

yet repeatedly several of us have shown you it is NOT the same word...

It's a synonym. It means the same thing. Let's not play semantics.

 

[razzelflabben]

The source does refer to 33000+ total "Christian" denominations

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

^^ 33,000 + denominations of Christianity all reading the SAME book.

Which one is right?

This makes for well visited site like this one.
It is enlightening to read and comment on these posts.
We have the Westboro Baptists that preach hate, the Jehovah's Witnesses who
preach they alone know "the truth" and refer to one another as being "in the Truth"
and the Pentecostals that play with rattlesnakes to demonstrate "faith".
If bitten it's a test from God, refuse medical care to prove faith that God won't
let them die, if they do die then "God" took them the heaven.
When they win they loose or loose to win.
So which denomination of Christianity is the right one?

Personally, I would go with those that actually follow what God says in scripture about not being deceived...that being relying on the HS to protect us from deception, this includes but is not limited to living out righteousness and the fruit of the spirit in Gal. 5 and studying to show thyself approved. When I study, I place at least 7 layers of checks and balances so that I am not led astray....1. I seek the HS to teach me 2. the passage in context 3. I study the translational meaning of the words used 4. the culture and teachings of the day 5. the totality of scripture 6. challenge of the conclusions I found. 7. putting it into practice and seeing if it is true to what scripture seems to be saying.

I think there are other ways of study, but too many people just proof text and don't actually put effort into knowing the intent of God. What I have repeatedly found is that many of the people who live and practice the extremes will say to me, "of course that is what it says but...." or "of course that works with all of scripture but..." or something like that.

 

[razzelflabben]

It's a synonym. It means the same thing. Let's not play semantics.

no it does NOT mean the same thing and you very well know that. In fact, in this discussion torture is used to insight anger....as is the word punishment...and yes, lots of us have shown you this