The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Strong in Him]

I believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is a real literal story, yet I also believe the rich-man was not being tortured in any flames. I also believe the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment) will destroy or annihilate the wicked, too.

Check out my explanation here (that was within this thread):
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-torture-in-hell.7964946/page-7#post-70125408



Notice what it says in Matthew 25:46. It says "everlasting punishment" and it does not say "everlasting punishment while they are yet alive." The "punishment" (that is everlasting) is speaking of "everlasting destruction." How so?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says,
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power"

"Destruction" is when something is broken down and destroyed and is no more. For example: If a man destroyed a piece of paper with fire, it is no longer in the same form than it was before

If someone ceases to exist after they die, are completely and forever obliterated, then what's the point of preaching repentance?

Someone could rebel against God all their lives, live selfishly, make lots of money at the expense of others, or be a cruel despot and kill thousands, and then they die. They have lived the kind of life they wanted, without God, rejecting/mocking him - so what then? Complete annihilation? Being dead, they won't be aware of that. So if there is no punishment for rejecting God, why the need to turn away from sin and to him?

 

[Hieronymus]

I am curious to hear how an annihilationist interprets these verses:

Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
(Revelation 14:9-11 NKJV)

Please actually tell me what exactly these verses do mean if they do not mean ECT.

We all know there's a Biblical case to be made for both ECT and annihilism / conditionalism.
But the Biblical case for annihilation of the unsaved is much stronger.
You can add the moral problem of ECT to that too.

 

[juvenissun]

No, since words like "see" and "in" belong to the contingent universe. Unless "heaven" is a spatio-temporal reality, thinking in terms of physical senses and material orientation is unfruitful for talking about things as-they-are-in-themselves. Hence the point I've been making about the interpretive considerations that must be in place when approaching the language of Revelations.

You are a material being that exists in the contingent, material domain of universe. God is not "of" the universe, but is rather "other-than" the universe. To speak of God in literal, physical terms is blasphemous at worst, a sign of some serious theological misunderstanding at best.

I point you again to my assertions above regarding interpretive considerations of this kind of literature.

This statement is based on the assumption that "heaven" exists in a corollary state of being as the contingent, material universe that has a spatio-temporal orientation. If we conceive of an existence that is distinct from these features (and is, in fact, something which we MUST do when we conceive of God apart from the assumption of the existence of the universe), then there is no sense in which "in heaven" makes much sense, much less a discussion of the materiality of the same.

OK. I see your point. But it is meaningless to me.
In the Heaven, I can see you (if you show up), I can see everyone else. And I can see God.
Basically, I am still me in the Heaven. I can go to this place and that place, and doing different things in the Heaven.

I guess you will not agree on that.

If so, how do you understand the "torture" in the Hell? Or you don't even think there is such thing there.

 

[food4thought]

We all know there's a Biblical case to be made for both ECT and annihilism / conditionalism.
But the Biblical case for annihilation of the unsaved is much stronger.
You can add the moral problem of ECT to that too.

I was hoping one of you had an answer for that passage, because I would much rather believe in annihilationism, but that passage must be taken into account when interpreting the rest of Scripture, and I cannot see how anything but ECT is being taught there.

I am aware of the passages that speak of death and destruction for the wicked, but I think the ECT answer to those passages is better than the annihilationist answer, or lack of answer so far, to the Revelation 14 passage.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

OK. I see your point. But it is meaningless to me.
In the Heaven, I can see you (if you show up), I can see everyone else. And I can see God.
Basically, I am still me in the Heaven. I can go to this place and that place, and doing different things in the Heaven.

I guess you will not agree on that.

If so, how do you understand the "torture" in the Hell? Or you don't even think there is such thing there.

I hold a view of universal reconciliation, so whatever "hell" is (I certainly don't conceive of it as a "place"), it is ultimately restorative.

 

[Hieronymus]

I was hoping one of you had an answer for that passage, because I would much rather believe in annihilationism, but that passage must be taken into account when interpreting the rest of Scripture, and I cannot see how anything but ECT is being taught there.

Same goes for annihilation passages though, so we have a contradiction in Scripture...

 

[Hieronymus]

I hold a view of universal reconciliation, so whatever "hell" is (I certainly don't conceive of it as a "place"), it is ultimately restorative.

I hope so too.
But apparently not every human will be found in the Book of Life.
And even the fallen angels have become mortal like man.

 

[mmksparbud]

If someone ceases to exist after they die, are completely and forever obliterated, then what's the point of preaching repentance?

Someone could rebel against God all their lives, live selfishly, make lots of money at the expense of others, or be a cruel despot and kill thousands, and then they die. They have lived the kind of life they wanted, without God, rejecting/mocking him - so what then? Complete annihilation? Being dead, they won't be aware of that. So if there is no punishment for rejecting God, why the need to turn away from sin and to him?

Who said there is no punishment for the wicked??? There certainly is--there is a hell, nobody is disputing that---just the duration.
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


God is justice--He will require punishment--according to your works. It may be that some will burn in hell for a short time, with just some minor pain---others, longer, with more pain----Hitler---and those like him--well, God is the one that decides, He is probably more merciful than I would be. Why should a 14 year old kid that steals $5.00 suffer forever along with Hitler? Cain, no matter what, would have been burning longer than anyone no matter how bad they were (for those that believe that we go directly to heaven or hell---which I do not.) That is not justice. According to our works. You pay the price. Then sin gets destroyed, and sinners. What exactly is the purpose of torturing someone forever?? It's not like they have a chance to learn their lesson, it's not that they pay for what they've done--forever goes way over and beyond in paying according to what they have done---they never stop paying. God is just--they pay the price and die. No more sin.

 

[razzelflabben]

Have not dismissed anything--I have refuted them with the scriptures that say just the opposite which you wish to ignore--which is your right to do. Can't get any clearer than the body and soul are destroyed in hell, God alone is immortal, the saved are given the gift of eternal life with the right to eat of the Tree of Life, the dead are like chaff and destroyed in the fire leaving neither root nor stubble. There is no sin in heaven, or on the earth made new, there are no sinners, sin, death and hell itself is destroyed in the lake of fire--zip, nothing left of any of it. Simple---No Sinner with his sins left languishing in torment forever anywhere---life with God is continued without the presence of sin or sinners anywhere--only the ever present scars of the price Jesus paid to rescue us from that annihilation and give us life eternal with Him. Doesn't get any better than that.

so, you refuse to address the questions so that this part of the discussion makes sense? How strange...okay let's get into it. when it comes to scripture, we have two different pictures of what happens to people in hell.

The first is what you post here and it says is destroyed.

the second has been posted before and says tormented forever both day and night.

To reconcile the two we need to do one of two things 1. find consistency through study including but not limited to translations or 2. accept that we don't really know all that we need to know in order to make the call.

First stop, Lexicon (I assume you know what that is) Matthew 10:28 destroy...

1. to destroy
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
   2. render useless
   3. to kill
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2. to destroy
   1. to lose
      

Notice that the word used does not have to mean annihilation and when we look at it in conjunction with I Corinthians 15:26 it would suggest that we cannot be sure what it means. In fact, according to strong's this is a different word altogether. Now let's look at perish...as in I Corinthians 15:18, again, same word used, possible means could be cease to exist or could mean still exist into eternity....not really helpful in knowing truth.

next stop, context...the context of Matthew 10 is not to worry because God has it, which I think is the best way to approach the topic, God knows the details that we don't...but I digress...I Cor. 15:26. the context is the raising of the dead and no mention is made of specifically only the believer is raised. In fact, Christ is the example of resurrection. IOW's this is talking about resurrection not immorality or hell. I Cor. 15, notice verse 44 b If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body...man has a spiritual body...that doesn't mean it isn't destroyed but does mean that man is eternal or spirit if you will...now look at verse 51 If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body...notice the word all... Now remember when I said the consequence of sin is hell, look at verse 56 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law...okay, moving on...

All of this is in contrast to passages like...Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Please note here that false prophets in scripture are always human beings...who are tormented day and night for ever and ever...
Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
again, human beings....

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal....a note here, the word punishment is actually translated from a word meaning correction, punishment, penalty...iow's could be translated penalty, wage, consequence...

Now look at Ezekiel Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die....I was going to cut and paste the lexicon on this but since history says no one will read this anyway I will just say this....hell is called the second death in Rev. 21:8; Rev. 20:14...thus reasonable to suggest this is referring to the second death.

So, let's summarize. According to some passages we could draw out an annihilation but that would contradict other passages. What we know for sure is that God knows, that He says it is better to not loss our soul in hell so any thought of sliding by without harm is gone. We also know that there is a consistency that hell is eternal torment for all non believers. What we don't know is that that is an absolute.

That is why there is disagreement. Because we presume to know what God did not ordain us to know instead of just trusting God with it all and heading His warning in appropriate proportions to what Christ Himself taught.

 

[razzelflabben]

She didn't say anything about any poster! Unless God posted somewhere, for that is whom she is calling pyscho---as a metaphor I am assuming for someone who burns and torments and tortures anyone forever---heck, even I wouldn't give Hitler more than 1 or 2 thousand years. I think just about everyone would have had enough of that by then.

face palm

 

[food4thought]

Same goes for annihilation passages though, so we have a contradiction in Scripture...

I don't think there is a contradiction. There are two deaths, physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God. In the garden of Eden Adam was told that the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die, yet he lived another several hundred years after the fall, so in what way did he die on the day he ate of the fruit? He died spiritually, and no longer had fellowship with God in his heart. It is the same with the 2nd death, those who are cast into the lake of fire (which I view as symbolic) are forever without fellowship with God in their spirits.

Also, to destroy something in fire only changes it's substance from wood to ash, it does not cease to exist. But it has become useless for it's intended purpose.

 

[Hieronymus]

I don't think there is a contradiction. There are two deaths, physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is separation of the spirit from God. In the garden of Eden Adam was told that the day he ate of the fruit he would surely die, yet he lived another several hundred years after the fall, so in what way did he die on the day he ate of the fruit? He died spiritually, and no longer had fellowship with God in his heart. It is the same with the 2nd death, those who are cast into the lake of fire (which I view as symbolic) are forever without fellowship with God in their spirits.

Also, to destroy something in fire only changes it's substance from wood to ash, it does not cease to exist. But it has become useless for it's intended purpose.

Then explain to me how one can be conscious AND dead.
You'll run into problems with Scripture describing death.

 

[Hieronymus]

Who said there is no punishment for the wicked??? There certainly is--there is a hell, nobody is disputing that---just the duration.

Strangely enough this seems to be difficult to understand somehow...
The same folks seem to believe you're conscious when dead too...
I mean, you don't even have to be dead to be UN-conscious...

 

[mark kennedy]

Precisely. and that is also exactly why we have the Gospel of God's Grace. No one needs to be in Hell.

Yet some are in Hell, to reject the Gospel is to go on to perdition. There is also the Abyss which imprisons demon to include those before the Flood bore children by human women.

 

[mark kennedy]

Strangely enough this seems to be difficult to understand somehow...
The same folks seem to believe you're conscious when dead too...
I mean, you don't even have to be dead to be UN-conscious...

In Hell they are conscious and suffering, the rich man and Lazeras being a conclusive proof text. In the lake of fire annialation seems feasable but we really don't know for sure.

 

[Hieronymus]

In Hell they are conscious and suffering, the rich man and Lazeras being a conclusive proof text.

i agree.
Because of eating of the tree we became one of the gods (in a legal sense) and 'hell' is made for rebellious angels, so we end up there when we denounce God.

In the lake of fire annialation seems feasable but we really don't know for sure.

I'm pretty sure though that only the saved will be saved.
I believe in a just and loving God who wants to destroy evil, not keep it alive to be tortured without purpose.

 

[mmksparbud]

See a chiropractor and then study to cure your lack of understanding.

ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Well, so far, nobody has gotten rude-you're pretty close---As far as I'm concerned-it is you that lack understanding and I doubt a chiropractor would help.
That does not say immortality is different from eternal life---they are seeking it, and are given it.

Eternal life
In Christianity, eternal life traditionally refers to continued life after death, as outlined in Christian eschatology. The Apostles' Creed testifies: "I believe... the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting."
Eternal life (Christianity) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


immortality

Pronunciation: /ɪmɔːˈtalɪti
noun [mass noun]
forever; eternal life: eating the fruit gave the gods immortality

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If someone ceases to exist after they die, are completely and forever obliterated, then what's the point of preaching repentance?

Someone could rebel against God all their lives, live selfishly, make lots of money at the expense of others, or be a cruel despot and kill thousands, and then they die. They have lived the kind of life they wanted, without God, rejecting/mocking him - so what then? Complete annihilation? Being dead, they won't be aware of that. So if there is no punishment for rejecting God, why the need to turn away from sin and to him?

There is still hell for the wicked unbeliever and outer darkness for the unprofible servant. Both are still real places that are horrible. They are just not torture chambers of insane amounts of pain. For ECT would be inhumane treatment even by the world's standards. Nobody is going to get away with anything. They will be judged and punished fairly. For I am not against the idea that some of the wicked may be punished for a set amount of time longer than others who are less wicked in the Lake of Fire before they are eventually destroyed or erased from existence. For it will still be painful to be thrown into the Lake of Fire and being burned up. But eternal torture in fire is not justice. It is overkill. It is anti-justice whereby it makes God into being vindictive and hateful.


...

 

[razzelflabben]

I have a thought experiment for you all...let's say for the sake of our thought experiment that eternal torment in hell is a fact for all unbelievers, plain and simple. Let's also say for the sake of this thought experiment that God is good and Love without question, again, plain and simple for the sake of this thought experiment. How do we then reconcile the two?

Remember this is just a thought experiment in which we make no assumptions other than God is a loving God and hell is eternal torment for all non believer. Doing the experiment is not an acknowledgement of agreement to anything but the experiment. IOW's we can do such experiments without accepting the premises offered.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It reminds me of the scriptures that tell us Jesus is the bread of life and the water that quenches our thirst for eternity. I would think that it could be possible that the "drop of water" he begged for was the water of life...not sure, again, not something we know about hell

I guess I tend to take these things at face value unless there is obvious reason to believe otherwise.