The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

John Hyperspace said:

I am sorry to have bothered you, brother. I hope you understand that my words are always spoken in love for the intent of edification of the people who hear the words. But here our course has run to its ending. I am thankful for your dialogue. Peace.

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Very funny. Got a chuckle out of this.

Chriliman said:

Yes, but what is the purpose of the torture and death? Does God torture/torment us and kill us because he enjoys doing it or is there a deeper significance behind the punishment he gives that actually benefits the one being punished, unbeknownst to them at the time of punishment?

Anytime I consider punishing my son, it's because I desire to correct and refine him, not because I enjoy punishing him or desire to continue punishing him endlessly. When I do punish him, he is in a state of torment, but it doesn't last forever and I would hate for it to last forever because that's not the purpose of the punishment, the purpose is to correct. If I'm made in God's image, why would I expect God to desire for anyone's punishment to be unending? Why wouldn't I expect God's punishments to correct and refine the one being punished if He is a loving Father in a similar way that I love my son?

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Hell is the "punishment" the law requires...iow's it's the consequence not the correction for sin.

John Hyperspace said:

I am sorry to have bothered you, brother. I hope you understand that my words are always spoken in love for the intent of edification of the people who hear the words. But here our course has run to its ending. I am thankful for your dialogue. Peace.

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No bother. I'm always eager to correct someone's false beliefs.

Peace be with you.

My previous posts in this thread about Hell:

The Testimony of Saint Faustina Kowalska of God from Poland of the Roman Catholic Faith about Hell:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...torture-in-hell.7964946/page-37#post-70161817


The Testimony of St. Teresa of Avila about Hell:

http://www.christianforums.com/posts/70174499/


Today I present the Testimony of St. John Bosco about Hell:

Read here:

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/h092_RoadHell_1.html


Also the Testimony of a nun about a friend of hers who was damned:

https://americaneedsfatima.org/The-Last-Things/a-letter-from-beyond.html


There are many more testimonies from reliable sources throughout history.


There is nothing immoral about creating a Hell for sinners to be tortured forever. In fact, the wicked sinner chooses to go there through their unbelief and their wickedness. God has shown His Desire for the Salvation of sinners though His Crucifixion. So those who are damned are lovers of iniquity, wickedness, sin, the world, darkness, the devil who gave evidence of their wickedness by their abominable and despicable rejection of the Salvation offered to them by Jesus Christ and the rejection of His Word and his Ways. They got what they deserved and reaped what they sowed.

Evidence of one's wickedness is like this:

Wicked Sinner: I am a wicked sinner.
Jesus: Would you like to be saved from Hell?
Wicked Sinner: No.

Lazy person: I'm broke.
Charitable person: You want a job?
Lazy person: No.

God bless you.

Der Alter said:

Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct. ​

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"Of the doctrine of the Pharisees he [Josephus, 37-100 A.D.] says:

" "They believe that wicked spirits are to be kept in an eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion). The Pharisees say all souls are incorruptible, but while those of good men are removed into other bodies those of bad men are subject to eternal punishment" (aidios timoria). Elsewhere he says that the Essenes, "allot to bad souls a dark, tempestuous place, full of never-ceasing torment (timoria adialeipton), where they suffer a deathless torment" (athanaton timorion)." "

"...He [Philo, 20 B.C.-50 A.D.] uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful." Here we have the precise terms employed by our Lord, which show that aionian did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."

"... In one place occurs this sentence concerning the wicked: "to live always dying, and to undergo, as it were, an immortal and interminable death."2..."

"...Had our Lord intended to indoctrinate the doctrine of the Pharisees, he would have used the terms by which they described it. But his word defining the duration of punishment was aionian, while their words are aidion, adialeipton, and athanaton. Instead of saying with Philo and Josephus, thanaton athanaton, deathless or immortal death; eirgmon aidion, eternal imprisonment; aidion timorion, eternal torment; and thanaton ateleuteton, interminable death, he used aionion kolasin, an adjective in universal use for limited duration, and a noun denoting suffering producing improvement."

Chapter 3 - Origin of Endless Punishment

Der Alter said:

I would suggest that you rely on accredited language sources instead of biased websites which tell you what you want to hear.

.....Nine language sources cited.

[snip...Der Alter cut & paste from other people's websites]

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TEN language sources quoted:

(1.) Marvin Vincent

From Greek scholar Marvin Vincent. Re aion, the equivalent of olam, he says:

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

Word Studies in the New Testament

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf


"Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17." [by Marvin R. Vincent, from Word Studies in the New Testament (Grand Rapids: William B Eerdmans, 1973, p.58f).]

Note on Olethron Aionion (Eternal Destruction) – What The Hell Is Hell?
All You Want to Know About Hell


(2.) Greek scholar William Barclay

“The word aionios is difficult to translate. It is used in the Old Testament* to describe Israel’s possession of the holy land (Genesis 17.8; 48.4); Aaron’s priesthood (Numbers 25,13);
regulations about blood in the sacrifices and about the day of atonement (Leviticus 3.17; 16.34); great mountains and hills (Habakkuk 3.6). Now aion literally means an age, and aionios is literally age-long." (The Apostles' Creed By William Barclay, p.189ff)

The Apostles' Creed

The Apostles' Creed

"Dr. William Barclay concurs in his commentary (p. 166-169) on The Letters to the Corinthians. If the Greek words eis tous aionas ton aionon mean endless time, as translated in the KJV, "forever and ever," we have a contradiction in Scripture, for Rev. 11:15 says, in the same version: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." That contradicts 1 Cor. 15:25, which says: "He must be reigning till..." If Rev. 11:15 is translated "eons of the eons," or "ages of the ages," there is no contradiction. The ASV says (1 Cor. 15:24-25), "Then cometh the end, when He shall deliver up the kingdom to God., even the Father; When He shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He hath put all His enemies under His feet;" consequently, the reigning of Christ Jesus and the saints (Rev. 22:5) will be "for the eons of the eons" or "for the ages of the ages" "

An Analytical Study of Words
The Letters to the Corinthians



(3.) Greek scholar E. W. Bullinger

"aionios, of or belonging to an age...."

And likewise re olam he states:

" 'olam. This word is derived from 'alam (to hide), and means the hidden time or age, like aion (see below, II. A), by which word, or its Adjective aionios, it is generally rendered in the Septuagint."

NUMERICAL INDEX OF APPENDIXES IN THE COMPANION BIBLE

In Appendix 129 of The Companion Bible, Dr. E.W. Bullinger states that aiōn "may be limited or extended as the context of each occurrence may demand. The root meaning of aiōn is expressed by the Hebrew olam which denotes indefinite, unknown or concealed duration, just as we speak of "the patriarchal age," or "the golden age." Hence, it has come to denote any given period of time, characterized by a special form of Divine administration or dispensation."

http://kingdomandglory.com/art/art57.pdf
The Synonymous Words for World, Earth, etc. - Appendix to the Companion Bible
Everlasting, Eternal, For Ever, etc. - Appendix to the Companion Bible


(4.) Origen, Church Father, 185-254 AD, Greek scholar & native Greek speaker:

"Now this word more undoubtedly means something greater than an age; and see if that expression of the Saviour, I will that where I am, these also may be with Me; and as I and You are one, these also may be one in Us, may not seem to convey something more than an age and ages, perhaps even more than ages of ages—that period, viz., when all things are now no longer in an age, but when God is in all." Princ. 2,3,5

CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)

Origen: De Principiis, Book 2 (Roberts-Donaldson)

"...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. And after ETERNAL life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life." (Commentary on John 13)

LAKE OF FIRE (eternal pain)


"...in Princ 3.1 Oregon forsees a "stage in which there will be no aeon anymore" and in 2.3.5 he stresses that there will come the end of all aeons, and this will be the eventual apokatastasis itself, "when all will be no more in an aeon, but God will be 'all in all' "...The same final state, after all aeons, is described by Origen in Comm. Jo. 13.3, after life in the next aeon (ζωή αἰώνιον), in Christ, there will come the eventual restoration, which will surpass and supercede all aeons; then all will be in the Father and God will be "all in all" (again 1 Cor 15:28, Origen's favorite scriptural passage in support of the apokatastasis doctrine)." p.35 from

Philo's Doctrine of Apokatastasis, by Illira Ramelli
Studia Philonica Annual XXVI, 2014
edited by David T. Runia, Gregory E. Sterling
https://books.google.ca/books?id=BTEjBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=origen+foresees+the+end+of+all+aeons&source=bl&ots=EkBmthBp_v&sig=93l2W3Tdykldol-SlgnWpjYzxt8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPt7DHiZ_OAhUFw2MKHTaMBeoQ6AEIIzAB#v=onepage&q=origen foresees the end of all aeons&f=false

"In Princ. II 3.5 Origen expressly refers to Acts 3:21 and interprets the “universal restoration” of which Peter speaks as the “perfect telos” and the “perfecting of all” at the end of all aeons."

"84) Also, in Sel. in Ps. 60, after the sojourn in the aeons there comes the dwelling, not only in the Son, but also in the Father, indeed in the Holy Trinity, which is the apokatastasis. This is expressed also in Comm. in Io. X 39 and III 10.3. In Hom. in Ex. 6.13, too, Origen foresees the end of aeons.

Harmony between Arkhē and Telos in Patristic Platonism and the Imagery of Astronomical Harmony Applied to Apokatastasis 1  »  Brill Online

"who are called the devil and his angels....after having undergone heavier and severer punishments...improved by this stern method of training, and [are] restored...and thus advancing through each stage to a better condition, reach even to that which is invisible and eternal..." - De Prin. I.6.3

http://www.churchhistory101.com/feedback/origen-universalism.php


(5.) Philo, at the time of Christ, spoke of an unlimited aion. Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Or does it mean aion needed another word meaning eternal added to it to make it eternal because the word aion, in and of itself, does not mean eternal. See page 212 at the url below.

Philo also speaks in four passages of a "long aion" (p.241-2). Does that mean the word aion is defined as "eternal"? Obviously not.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=l-SmshbeyUsC&pg=PA205&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

"...He [Philo, 20 B.C.-50 A.D.] uses the exact phraseology of Matt. 25:46, precisely as Christ used it: "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and æonian punishment (chastisement) from such as are more powerful." Here we have the precise terms employed by our Lord, which show that aionian did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book45.html
https://books.google.ca/books?id=s8CgWlhQgcIC&pg=PA17&lpg=PA17&dq=Here+we+have+the+precise+terms+employed+by+our+Lord,+which+show+that+aionian+did+not+mean+endless+but+did+mean+limited+duration+in+the+time+of+Christ.&source=bl&ots=yzY29eCtrL&sig=y6jimv7vA9KCjI81i0bWQ9X-Ee8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnlZCE2rjXAhUC92MKHRV0BZkQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=Here we have the precise terms employed by our Lord, which show that aionian did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ.&f=false



(6.) Vocabulary of the Greek NT by Moulton & Milligan:

"Without pronouncing any opinion on the special meaning which theologians have found for this word, we must note that outside the NT, in the vernacular as in the classical Greek (see Grimm-Thayer), it never loses the sense of perpetuus (cf. Deissmann BS p. 363, LAE p. 368). It is a standing epithet of the Emperor’s power : thus Cagnat IV. 144.3 τ.αἰ.οἶκον of Tiberius, BGU I. 176 τοῦ αἰωνίου κόσμου of Hadrian. From the beginning of iii/A.D. we have BGU II. 362iv. 11 ff. ὑπὲρ σωτηριῶν καὶ αἰω [νίου ] διαμο [νῆ ]ς τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Αὐτοκρά [τορος ] Σεουή [ρου Ἀ ]ντωνίνου. Two examples from iv/A.D. may be quoted addressed to the Emperor Galerius and his colleagues : ὑμετέρῳ θείῳ καὶ αἰωνίῳ [νεύματι ], and [ὑπὲρ ] τῆς αἰωνίου καὶ ἀφθάρτου βασιλείας ὑμῶν, OGIS 56920, 24. Ultimately it becomes a direct epithet of the Emperor himself, taking up the succession of the Ptolemaic αἰων ́όβιος (see above under αἰών sub fin.). The earliest example of this use we have noted is BGU IV. 1062.27 (A.D. 236), where it is applied to Maximus : so in P Grenf II. 6727, a year later. (In both the word is said to be very faint.) P Lond 2339 ( = II. p. 273) παρὰ τῆς θιότητος τῶν δεσποτῶν ἡμῶν αἰωνίων Αὐγούστων, referring to Constantius and Constans, is the precursor of a multitude of examples of the epithet as applied to the Christian Emperors. The first volume of the Leipzig Papyri alone has twenty-seven instances of the imperial epithet, all late in iv/A.D. Even in BGU I. 303.2 (A.D. 586) and ib. 309.4 (A.D. 602) we have still τοῦ αἰωνίου Αὐγούστου (Maurice). In Syll 757.12 (i/A.D.—see under αἰών) note θείας φύσεως ἐργάτης αἰωνίου (of Time). Syll 740.18 (iii/A.D.) joins it with ἀναφαίρετον. P Grenf II. 7111 (iii/A.D.) ὁμολογῶ χαρίζεσθαι ὑμῖν χάριτι αἰωνίᾳ καὶ ἀναφαιρέτῳ is a good example of the meaning perpetuus; and from a much earlier date (i/B.C.) we may select OGIS 383.8 f. (a passage in the spirit of Job 19:24) : Ἀντίοχος. . . ἐπὶ καθωσιωμένων βάσεων ἀσύλοις γράμμασιν ἔργα χάριτος ἰδίας εἰς χρόνον ἀνέγραψεν αἰώνιον. Add BGU II. 531ii. 20 (ii/A.D.) ἐὰν δὲ ἀστοχήσῃς [αἰω ]γίαν μοι λοίπην (i.e. λύπην) [π ]αρέχιν μέλλις. In his Index to OGIS Dittenberger gives fourteen instances of the word.

"The etymological note on αἰών in Grimm-Thayer, though less antiquated than usual, suggests the addition of a statement on that side. Αἰέν is the old locative of αἰών as αἰές is of αἰώς (acc. αἰῶ in Aeschylus), and αἰεί, ἀεί of *αἰ ϝ όν (Lat. aevum), three collateral declensions from the same root. In the Sanskrit āyu and its Zend equivalent the idea of life, and especially long life, predominates. So with the Germanic cognates (Gothic aiws). The word, whose root it is of course futile to dig for, is a primitive inheritance from Indo-Germanic days, when it may have meant ";long life"; or ";old age";—perhaps the least abstract idea we can find for it in the prehistoric period, so as to account for its derivatives.

In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance, as in Catullus’ poignant lines—

Nobis cum semel occidit brevis lux,

Nox est perpetua una dormienda,

or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."

The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament.
Copyright © 1914, 1929, 1930 by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan. Hodder and Stoughton, London.
Derivative Copyright © 2015 by Allan Loder.

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/166.html


(7.) Liddel Scott Jones entry re aion:

αἰών , ῶνος, ὁ, Ion. and Ep. also ἡ, as in Pi.P.4.186, E.Ph.1484: apocop. acc. αἰῶ,
A.like Ποσειδῶ, restored by Ahrens (from AB363) in A.Ch.350: (properly αἰϝών, cf. aevum, v. αἰεί):—period of existence (“τὸ τέλος τὸ περιέχον τὸν τῆς ἑκάστου ζωῆς χρόνον . . αἰὼν ἑκάστου κέκληται” Arist.Cael.279a25):
I. lifetime, life, “ψυχή τε καὶ αἰών” Il.16.453; “ἐκ δ᾽ αἰ. πέφαται” Il.19.27; “μηδέ τοι αἰ. φθινέτω” Od.5.160; “λείπει τινά” Il.5.685; ἀπ᾽ αἰῶνος νέος ὤλεο (Zenod. νέον) 24.725; “τελευτᾶν τὸν αἰῶνα” Hdt.1.32, etc.; “αἰῶνος στερεῖν τινά” A.Pr.862; “αἰῶνα διοιχνεῖν” Id.Eu.315; “συνδιατρίβειν” Cratin. 1; αἰ. Αἰακιδᾶν, periphr. for the Aeacidae, S.Aj.645 s. v. l.; “ἀπέπνευσεν αἰῶνα” E.Fr.801; “ἐμὸν κατ᾽ αἰῶνα” A.Th.219.
2. age, generation, αἰ. ἐς τρίτον ib.744; ὁ μέλλων αἰών posterity, D.18.199, cf. Pl.Ax.370c.
3. one's life, destiny, lot, S.Tr.34, E.Andr.1215, Fr.30, etc.
II. long space of time, age, αἰὼν γίγνεται 'tis an age, Men.536.5; esp. with Preps., ἀπ᾽ αἰῶνος of old, Hes.Th.609, Ev.Luc.1.70; “οἱ ἀπὸ τοῦ αἰ. Ῥωμαῖοι” D.C. 63.20; δι᾽ αἰῶνος perpetually, A.Ch.26, Eu.563; all one's life long, S. El.1024; δι᾽ αἰῶνος μακροῦ, ἀπαύστου, A.Supp.582,574; τὸν δι᾽ αἰ. χρόνον for ever, Id.Ag.554; εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν αἰ. Lycurg.106, Isoc.10.62; εἰς τὸν αἰ. LXX Ge.3.23, al., D.S.21.17, Ev.Jo.8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr.17; “εἰς αἰῶνα αἰῶνος” LXX Ps.131(132).14; ἐξ αἰῶνος καὶ ἕως αἰῶνος ib.Je.7.7; ἐπ᾽ αἰ. ib.Ex.15.18; ἕως αἰῶνος ib.1 Ki.1.22, al.:— without a Prep., τὸν ἅπαντα αἰ. Arist. Cael.279a22; “τὸν αἰῶνα” Lycurg. 62, Epicur.Ep.1p.8U.; eternity, opp. χρόνος, Pl.Ti.37d, cf. Metrod. Fr.37, Ph.1.496,619, Plot.3.7.5, etc.; “τοὺς ὑπὲρ τοῦ αἰῶνος φόβους” Epicur.Sent.20.
2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος this present world, opp. ὁ μέλλων, Ev.Matt.13.22, cf. Ep.Rom.12.2; ὁ νῦν αἰ. 1 Ep.Tim.6.17, 2 Ep.Tim.4.10:—hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld.D.3 Fr.84; “εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰ.” LXX To.13.4; εἰς τοὺς αἰ.ib.Si.45.24, al., Ep.Rom.1.25, etc.; “εἰς τοὺς αἰ. τῶν αἰώνων” LXX 4 Ma.18.24, Ep.Phil.4.20, etc.; ἀπὸ τῶν αἰ., πρὸ τῶν αἰ., Ep.Eph.3.9, 1Cor.2.7; τὰ τέλη τῶν αἰ. ib.10.11.
3. Αἰών, ὁ, personified, “Αἰὼν Χρόνου παῖς” E.Heracl.900 (lyr.), cf. Corp.Herm.11, etc.; as title of various divine beings, Dam.Pr.151, al.; esp.=Persian Zervan, Suid. s.v. Ἡραἰ̈σκος.
4. Pythag., = 10, Theol.Ar.59.
B. spinal marrow (perh. regarded as seat of life), h.Merc 42, 119, Pi.Fr.111, Hp.Epid.7.122; perh. also Il.19.27.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=aiwn&la=greek#lexicon
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=aiwn&la=greek#lexicon
http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=2947&context=lsj&action=hw-list-click


Liddell-Scott-Jones on aionios:

αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Hebrews 9:12 : —

1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot. 3.7.3), μέθη Pl. R. 363d; ἀνώλεθρον.. ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον Id. Lg. 904a, cf. Epicur. Sent. 28; αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις Id. Nat. 131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld. Herc. 1251.18, D. 1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ Romans 16:26, Ti.Locr. 96c; οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον.. ἀλλ' αἰωνίη Aret. CA 1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Genesis 9:16, Ex. 27.21, To. 1.6; ζωή Matthew 25:46, Porph. Abst. 4.20; κόλασις Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg. p.278J.; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. 2 Timothy 1:9 : opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2 Corinthians 4:18.

2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, γυμνασίαρχος CPHerm. 62.

3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg. Macr. 4.

4. Adv. -ίως eternally, νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν Procl. Inst. 172, cf. Simp. in Epict. p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch. E. Alc. 338.

5. αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.- Dsc. 4.88.

https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/166.html
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=ai)w/nios
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=aiwnios&la=greek#lexicon


(8.) BDAG. Here are the 4 main definitions of aion by BDAG lexicon:

1. a long period of time, without ref. to beginning or end
2. a segment of time as a particular unit of history, age
3. the world as a spacial concept, the world
4. the Aeon as a person, the Aeon

( A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed, BDAG, 2000, pgs 32-33)

For the complete entry on aion by BDAG see:

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1336


(9.) Strong's Concordance
aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: αἰών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.
http://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm

(10.) HELPS Word-studies
165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

Example: Christians today live in the newer age (165 /aiṓn) of the covenant – the time-period called the NT. It is characterized by Christ baptizing all believers
in the Holy Spirit, i.e. engrafting all believers (OT, NT) into His mystical body (1 Cor 12:13) with all the marvelous privileges that go with that (Gal 3:23-25; 1 Pet 2:5,9).

http://biblehub.com/greek/165.htm


http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://tentmaker.org/blog1/universalism/

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

ClementofA said:

TEN language sources quoted:
(1.) Marvin Vincent
From Greek scholar Marvin Vincent. Re aion, the equivalent of olam, he says: . . .

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Cherry picked reference which seems to support your false assumptions/presuppositions.

"Both the noun and the adjective ...

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Second hand copy/paste deleted. Do not do what you criticize me for.

(3.) Greek scholar E. W. Bullinger
"aionios, of or belonging to an age...."...

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Selective quote from Bullinger. Addressed elsewhere.

(4.) Origen, Church Father, 185-254 AD, Greek scholar & native Greek speaker:...
"...in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life. And after ETERNAL life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life." (Commentary on John 13)

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Selective out-of-context quoting which deliberately ignores parts of Origen which contradicts your false assumptions/presuppositions.

(5.) Philo, at the time of Christ, spoke....

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Addressed in other thread, another out-of-context quote which ignores part of the writing which contradicts your false assumptions/presuppositions.

Begin

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(7.) Liddel Scott Jones entry re aion:
αἰών , ῶνος, ὁ, Ion. and Ep. also ἡ, as in Pi.P.4.186, E.Ph.1484:... τὸν δι᾽ αἰ. χρόνον for ever, Id.Ag.554; εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν αἰ. Lycurg.106, Isoc.10.62; εἰς τὸν αἰ. LXX Ge.3.23, al., D.S.21.17, Ev.Jo.8.35, Ps.-Luc. Philopatr.17; “εἰς αἰῶνα αἰῶνος” LXX Ps.131(132).14; ἐξ αἰῶνος καὶ ἕως αἰῶνος ib.Je.7.7; ἐπ᾽ αἰ. ib.Ex.15.18; ἕως αἰῶνος ib.1 Ki.1.22, al.:— without a Prep., τὸν ἅπαντα αἰ. Arist. Cael.279a22; “τὸν αἰῶνα” Lycurg. 62, Epicur.Ep.1p.8U.; eternity, opp. χρόνος, Pl.Ti.37d, cf. Metrod. Fr.37, Ph.1.496,619, Plot.3.7.5, etc.; “τοὺς ὑπὲρ τοῦ αἰῶνος φόβους” Epicur.Sent.20.
2. space of time clearly defined and marked out, epoch, age, ὁ αἰὼν οὗτος this present world, opp. ὁ μέλλων, Ev.Matt.13.22, cf. Ep.Rom.12.2; ὁ νῦν αἰ. 1 Ep.Tim.6.17, 2 Ep.Tim.4.10:—hence in pl., the ages, i.e. eternity, Phld.D.3 Fr.84; “εἰς πάντας τοὺς αἰ.” LXX To.13.4; εἰς τοὺς αἰ.ib.Si.45.24, al., Ep.Rom.1.25, etc.; “εἰς τοὺς αἰ. τῶν αἰώνων” LXX 4 Ma.18.24, Ep.Phil.4.20, etc.; ἀπὸ τῶν αἰ., πρὸ τῶν αἰ., Ep.Eph.3.9, 1Cor.2.7; τὰ τέλη τῶν αἰ. ib.10.11.
Liddell-Scott-Jones on aionios:
αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Hebrews 9:12 : —
1. lasting for an age (αἰών 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot. 3.7.3), μέθη Pl. R. 363d; ἀνώλεθρον.. ἀλλ' οὐκ αἰώνιον Id. Lg. 904a, cf. Epicur. Sent. 28; αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις Id. Nat. 131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld. Herc. 1251.18, D. 1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ Romans 16:26, Ti.Locr. 96c; οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον.. ἀλλ' αἰωνίη Aret. CA 1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Genesis 9:16, Ex. 27.21, To. 1.6; ζωή Matthew 25:46, Porph. Abst. 4.20; κόλασις Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg. p.278J.; πρὸ χρόνων αἰ. 2 Timothy 1:9 : opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2 Corinthians 4:18.
...
4. Adv. -ίως eternally, νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν Procl. Inst. 172, cf. Simp. in Epict. p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch. E. Alc. 338....

End

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See highlights.

(8.) BDAG. Here are the 4 main definitions of aion by BDAG lexicon:...

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Copy/paste misrepresentation of the definition from BDAG previously refuted in another thread.

(9.) Strong's Concordance

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Strong's is a concordance not a lexicon and has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.

(10.) HELPS Word-studies
165 aiṓn (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiṓnios, "age-long") – properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence)....,

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Not a separate source HELPS uses Strong's with their own unsupported additions. Review of HELPS
Repeating the same arguments over and over and over does not make them true.

Der Alter said:

Cherry picked reference which seems to support your false assumptions/presuppositions.

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What "false assumptions"? Was your list "cherry picked" or did you draw names randomly out of a hat?

Der Alter said:

Second hand copy/paste deleted. Do not do what you criticize me for.

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Regarding what?

Der Alter said:

Selective quote from Bullinger. Addressed elsewhere.

Rev.-1:6.—-’ The ages of the ages.” i.e., to the remotest age. For ever and ever. Bullinger p.284​

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Already refuted. See posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Der Alter said:

Selective out-of-context quoting which deliberately ignores parts of Origen which contradicts your false assumptions/presuppositions.

​

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Der Alter said:

Addressed in other thread, another out-of-context quote which ignores part of the writing which contradicts your false assumptions/presuppositions.

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Refuted here:

Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

Der Alter said:

(7.) Liddel Scott Jones entry re aion:

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LSJ opposes your aion/ios defined as eternal & only eternal (not ever finite duration) theory. As the other 9 points i posted.

Der Alter said:

Copy/paste misrepresentation of the definition from BDAG previously refuted in another thread.

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No, just exactly word for word BDAG. Check it yourself. As anyone can see from the link i posted. Also opposes your false aion/ios theory.

Der Alter said:

Strong's is a concordance not a lexicon and has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.

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I didn't post 15K words or definitions, just one. You didn't show any errors or ommissions in it.

Der Alter said:

Not a separate source HELPS uses Strong's with their own unsupported additions. Review of HELPS

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Der Alter said:

This HELPS Word-studies is used by the Bible Hub. It seems their motto is... pile on enough [rubbish] and no one can say you are wrong. Reassuring for some, I'm sure.
HELPS Word-studies​

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That link is from a forum called datehookup.com. Do you find such sites are reliable & visit often? The initial post is by someone who apparently is high on the CLV. Is that the person you are relying on for this info?


Statement of Faith -- Please Read

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Achilles6129 said:

In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Discuss.

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A human man - has life of his body - which is his blood -

Gen 9
[4] But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
[5] And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Not a big Secret;

- life of man's flesh body is his blood.
- without discrimination - the blood of every body, is sentenced to death,
...and required, by God, to become dead.

Not a big secret;

- Dead body's know nothing, feel nothing, do nothing, but rot and return to dust.

Not a big secret;

- Every living body, has a living soul within his body.
- Every living soul, is imparted into the body, via Gods breath,
- Every living soul, so imparted, is life that belongs to God, and brings life into the body.
- Every living soul, Departs the body, when the man has paid his Blood requirement,
.. to God. (Gen 35:18) (1 Kings 17:22)

Not a big secret;

- Living souls, departed out of their body's have occupied hell.
- Living souls of the faithful to God, in hell - have been with Abraham, in comfort.
- Living souls, of the unfaithful to God, in hell - are void of Gods comforts, ie torment.
..(Luke 16: 22-24)

Not a big secret;

- It is the faithful to God, who receive the Seed of God, that births them FOREVER life.
..(Ezek 36:26) (1 Pet 1:2-3) (Gal 3:16)

Not a big secret;

- It is via Christ, who is the Seed of God, that a man shall live forever.
...(John 6:58)
- It is BY PROMISE, that a man who has become Baptized with the Spirit of God, is he
...who receives forever life.
- It is BY PROMISE, that a man who has become Baptized with the Spirit of God, is he
...who is forever alive, and forever with the new Comforter, called the Holy Spirit, called ...Power, called Christ. (John 14:16) (1 John 14:26) (Luke 1:35) (1 Cor 1:24)

Not a big secret;
Men from the beginning of mankind -

- have paid their Blood life requirement to God.
- have accepted and rejected God.
- have had their living soul departed from their dead body's.
- have had their living soul separated in hell. (by a great gulf)
- Some living souls are WITH their Christ Lord Jesus, waiting in comfort, in heaven,
..where Scripture teaches, He is; and some are ..still in hell, separated from God, ..waiting in torment.

-WAITING FOR? JUDGEMENT Day.

Judgement of what? body, soul, spirit of the man.

Does not the body, soul, spirit of a man need to be present at the judgement of his body, soul, spirit? Of course.

There are NO judgements of men ON earth.
The faithful's body's are raise to the clouds, and their living soul and living spirit imparted into their body's that they may stand in judgement. They shall be found WHOLE, body, soul, spirit, forever alive and with the Lord. Their "sentence" is Forever life of their body, soul, spirit SHALL forever be alive.

The unfaithful's body's are raise from their graves to hell, and their living soul imparted into their body's that they many stand in judgement. They shall be found NOT WHOLE,
body's that were against God, living souls that were against God, and no seed of God having given them a new forever living spirit. Their "sentence" is depart life (a living soul) out of their body, and their body destroyed. The life in their living soul, is Gods life, and shall depart and return to God. And their spirit? (which is their natural truth, in their natural heart, without forever life) shall be destroyed with their dead body.

And SO? How exactly is a Dead body, Dead soul, Dead spirit, VOID of ANY LIFE, "feeling" the pain of "torment or agony" ?

The dead feel nothing, know nothing. Their ETERNAL torment is NOT by what they know or feel. The ETERNAL torment is WHAT THEY KNEW, before life was departed from them - it is what every living soul in hell knows for the entire time they are in hell.
Their ETERNAL torment is ~ the door is closed ~ even knowing the truth ~ they have NO OPTION to reconcile unto God.

Eternal is the EXTENT of every individuals LIFE or lack thereof.
There have been living souls in hell, separated from Gods comfort, for thousands of years, and so shall all living souls who rejected God, experience at least 1,000 years, separated from Gods comfort. Then shall life God imparted into such souls, be departed, return to God, and Body's and Soul's destroyed, to be remembered no more.

Matt 10
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



God Bless,
SBC

razzelflabben said:

Hell is the "punishment" the law requires...iow's it's the consequence not the correction for sin.

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Something I was told many years ago by a very smart professor. It has served me well when I approach any subject that has speculation involved or opinions of men.

First.......Did God say it?
Second...Can God lie?
Third......Is hell real?

Luke 16:22-24................
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Now all the "intellectuals" and educated can copy and paste all they want to about information one way or the other and that is fine with me. But no matter what is pasted, no matter who is saying it and no matter what anyones opinion is, it all comes down to those 3 questions I asked..............

1). Did God say it?
2). Can God lie?
3). Is hell real?

Major1 said:

Something I was told many years ago by a very smart professor. It has served me well when I approach any subject that has speculation involved or opinions of men.

First.......Did God say it?
Second...Can God lie?
Third......Is hell real?

Luke 16:22-24................
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame."

Now all the "intellectuals" and educated can copy and paste all they want to about information one way or the other and that is fine with me. But no matter what is pasted, no matter who is saying it and no matter what anyones opinion is, it all comes down to those 3 questions I asked..............

1). Did God say it?
2). Can God lie?
3). Is hell real?

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so what did God say about Hell? First we know that it is a place or torment but that is very different than torture which assumes a premeditated desire to inflict harm which is contrary to everything scripture tells us...second, when we go back to the OT and follow things through to the NT we see that in fact, God tells us through scripture that hell is the consequence for sin not the punishment for it. In fact, it isn't even until much later in scripture that we see that death is thrown into hell, a hell that was created for Satan and the fallen angels. (scriptures upon request)

In addition to all of this we see in Gen. that the punishment for Adam and Eve's sin was not hell at all but rather pain in childbirth and weeds in the fields, expulsion from the garden of Eden.

If that isn't enough to show what I am saying about hell we can look at Habakkuk 1:13 the very reason why those who have not believed unto salvation are cast into hell.

Now we can further add scripture to our understanding of hell being the consequence of sin not the punishment for it if you like...we do that by looking at the OT temple and sacrifices there. You see, that is the old covenant, Christ gave way to the new covenant which is basically the same only better. Thus one offering is all that is necessary. IOW's the understanding of what is needed and why does not change only how that happens changes. In the OT the reason why sacrifice was needed was not because man was being punished but because the wages, or that which was earned by sin was death. IOW's God isn't punishing us with hell, it is the consequence of sin trying to reach a very Holy God.

Now if you think it is okay to throw out all that scriptural evidence in exchange for what the church has traditionally taught we are done talking because you will never convince me to favor tradition over scripture. If on the other hand you want to talk scripture we can actually dig in and pull out all kinds of passages that teach hell as the consequence of sin not the punishment for it.

/nvm

razzelflabben said:

so what did God say about Hell? First we know that it is a place or torment but that is very different than torture which assumes a premeditated desire to inflict harm which is contrary to everything scripture tells us...second, when we go back to the OT and follow things through to the NT we see that in fact, God tells us through scripture that hell is the consequence for sin not the punishment for it. In fact, it isn't even until much later in scripture that we see that death is thrown into hell, a hell that was created for Satan and the fallen angels. (scriptures upon request)

In addition to all of this we see in Gen. that the punishment for Adam and Eve's sin was not hell at all but rather pain in childbirth and weeds in the fields, expulsion from the garden of Eden.

If that isn't enough to show what I am saying about hell we can look at Habakkuk 1:13 the very reason why those who have not believed unto salvation are cast into hell.

Now we can further add scripture to our understanding of hell being the consequence of sin not the punishment for it if you like...we do that by looking at the OT temple and sacrifices there. You see, that is the old covenant, Christ gave way to the new covenant which is basically the same only better. Thus one offering is all that is necessary. IOW's the understanding of what is needed and why does not change only how that happens changes. In the OT the reason why sacrifice was needed was not because man was being punished but because the wages, or that which was earned by sin was death. IOW's God isn't punishing us with hell, it is the consequence of sin trying to reach a very Holy God.

Now if you think it is okay to throw out all that scriptural evidence in exchange for what the church has traditionally taught we are done talking because you will never convince me to favor tradition over scripture. If on the other hand you want to talk scripture we can actually dig in and pull out all kinds of passages that teach hell as the consequence of sin not the punishment for it.

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Revelation 20:10 .........
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Major1 said:

Revelation 20:10 .........
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

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and what? Torment is not the same thing as tortured which has been specifically talked about many times over now. In fact, anything no matter the intent can be torment but not everything is torture....so until you find a scripture that says that God is torturing people you are just simply speaking what satan wants you to speak about the topic and not what scripture says at all.

The bottom line is that you don't want to go there; it does exist; and uncleansed sinners are not fit for the holy presence of God. This is why it all points to the need for the Saviour. John 3.16

Very spirited thread.
I have a question concerning the Gehenna hell of unending torture: Who made hell and when was it made?
Gehenna was referred to by Jesus in the new testament, but I cannot find mention of any place like that in the Old Testament. So was it Jesus that made hell? And if so, when did he make it? Obviously before the cross because he was still alive when he said it. So would that mean he was simply the first one to mention it?
I would think avoiding such a terrible place would be the chief goal in life for people, so why would there be thousands of years of human history where everyone was doomed to this place and didn't even know it. The whole thing is very confusing.

Thoughts?

Shempster said:

Very spirited thread.
I have a question concerning the Gehenna hell of unending torture: Who made hell and when was it made?
Gehenna was referred to by Jesus in the new testament, but I cannot find mention of any place like that in the Old Testament. So was it Jesus that made hell? And if so, when did he make it? Obviously before the cross because he was still alive when he said it. So would that mean he was simply the first one to mention it?
I would think avoiding such a terrible place would be the chief goal in life for people, so why would there be thousands of years of human history where everyone was doomed to this place and didn't even know it. The whole thing is very confusing.

Thoughts?

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The old testament is written in the Hebrew in which the equivalent of new testament Gehenna is Sheol...OT references to Sheol 30 Bible verses about Sheol

The new testament is written in Greek, therefore a different word for the same idea...NT references to Gehenna 19 Bible verses about Gehenna

The main difference being the language the text is written in. Then we come to Ezekiel 28 which talks about God creating hell for Satan...another reference to this is Matthew 25:41 which ties the two words together in our understanding.

Finally we come to Revelation 20:14 where both death and hades are cast into the lake of fire. Basically telling us that Gehenna/Sheol are cast into Hell fire and there they will remain.

/nvm

razzelflabben said:

and what? Torment is not the same thing as tortured which has been specifically talked about many times over now. In fact, anything no matter the intent can be torment but not everything is torture....so until you find a scripture that says that God is torturing people you are just simply speaking what satan wants you to speak about the topic and not what scripture says at all.

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You must be kidding.

1 Samuel 2:6 ........
The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

2 Samuel 22:5-6........
“For the waves of death encompassed me, the torrents of destruction assailed me;6 the cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me.

Proverbs 23:13-14 .......
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Greek: tartaros
Translated “hell” meaning eternal torment”
2 Peter 2:4 .........
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Translated “hell” meaning place of everlasting torment
Matthew 10:28........
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Torment will be physical

Luke 16:24.........
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Jude 12-13 ...........
These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Revelation 14:11 ..........
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 19:20 ..........
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 20:10 ..........
And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Major1 said:

You must be kidding.

1 Samuel 2:6 ........
The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

2 Samuel 22:5-6........
“For the waves of death encompassed me, the torrents of destruction assailed me;6 the cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me.

Proverbs 23:13-14 .......
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

Greek: tartaros
Translated “hell” meaning eternal torment”
2 Peter 2:4 .........
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Translated “hell” meaning place of everlasting torment
Matthew 10:28........
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Torment will be physical

Luke 16:24.........
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’

Jude 12-13 ...........
These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

Revelation 14:11 ..........
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 19:20 ..........
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Revelation 20:10 ..........
And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

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what Pray tell is your problem with what I said....? I laid out several ways we know that hell is the consequence of sin not the place in which God sits on His throne and tortures people for all of eternity and all you can respond is passages that talk about hell? If you want to disagree with me that is fine but please address the many places in scripture that support what I said rather than just quoting passages that support what I say.