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Yeah, in this thread Gabriel Anton has given me several "likes" and a couple of "winner" votes, too. I also appreciate his approbation of my comments. Thanks, GA!
Let me start with this; I hate long posts....both to me and from me. Too many rabbit trails open up. So I'm just going to answer your first paragraph, which will be plenty for me to write and for you to even begin to understand where I come from in my relationship with God and 'present' understanding about Him/us/bible. But I do want to finish the rest of your post as you've asked/shared several good/interesting talking points. Points which you may think I can answer with 'one liners' and I'm thinking 'one pagers'.....I'm serious....sorry. So, shorter is best IMO.
1. To start, 'I think the church is the one "hung up on the idea of eternal hell'.If the church was gone 'the idea' would be gone. If I was gone 'the idea' would most assuredly still be big, right? Second, your 'Hell definition' really is a 'secondarily' "shortest version" according to some, but definitely not everyone IMO. As for me, Hell is a man made English word which Jesus, who spoke Aramaic/Hebrew (Greek/Latin???), never spoke. He did talk about two places written to us originally in Greek as gehenna and hades though. And Gehenna/hades is two different words for two different places which covered up with one English word HELL. And then we have tartaroo, another Greek word, spoken of '1 Peter' but not by Jesus, which is another Greek word, also translated HELL. So, in all sincerity, your "shortest version" definition really falls short for me to begin with. But, just for a short 'discussion sake answer', can you back your "short version" def. with a scripture for me? BTW I do have 'Bible Dictionary definitions' of Gehenna/hades/tartaroo.
2. And, moving on with your thinking, as for "Jesus being God". The trinity was argued over for 400 years before being settled, by a 'nominal church' who was in the first step of leading the whole world into the 'dark ages' (including spiritually). So, just to let you know where I stand on that whole issue, since you brought it up.I believe that when man was created, and for the next 4,000 years we had 'the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit'. All three of which existed as 'spirit'. A point which is still true according to the NT.
JOH 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
As you can see, spirit isn't even capitalized, and translators got 'that' right in this verse IMO. But when triune God wanted to create a man after the likeness of His spirit image, He did so 4000 years before "THE WORD became flesh and dwelt among us" as Jesus. But, 'The Word' had a problem before becoming 'a man "in the likeness of sinful flesh'." (Rom 8:3)
PHI 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he WAS in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
So, in your opinion, what did 'the Word', which was 'after the likeness of God' (IMO), empty himself of, before He became Christ Jesus 'the MAN' made "in the likeness of sinful flesh"?
3. "Jesus himself" wasn't "without sin"...your assumption then for having a get out of ETERNAL HELL privilege. Unless you know of a scripture to support such a view, I am of the view that He suffered everything I should have that I might have all of his 'IMPUTED' righteousness to enter into life in the ages to come...as well as in this age. My scriptural support is;
2CO 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
So, if Jesus paid 'the debt' for everybody IMO it can not be 'eternal separation from God', because Jesus never paid that price after 'becoming sin'. Also, 'Being righteous' wasn't the price he paid. But, 'becoming righteousness fulfilled' was the 'price He paid' to obtain the position of BEING the perfect sacrifice.
IOW, Jesus wasn't born the 'perfect sacrifice', he was born sinless, but he 'became 'perfect' by what he 'suffered'...a process which wasn't finished until His perfected obedience unto death....on the cross.
HEB 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
A 'suffering' process which finishes up my answer to #2. 'Jesus is God', above; A 'suffering process' where the Word emptied himself as equality with God, to become and live as a man in sinful flesh, but who, after obedience and suffering unto perfection and death, once again ascended unto the authority AS GOD again;
PHI 2:8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 THEREFORE God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
I'm going to assume, that "Jesus is God" POV from me, also falls into the category of...how did you say it; "I think your theology on this is new to some of us.."?
OK, I'm stopping because this is way to long for answering one paragraph of your post. Thoughts? Even if your thoughts are this is too much to even mess with. Just let me know.
It goes without saying that God can destroy anything He created but there is not one verse which says God has or will destroy a single soul.Really not sure why you challenged me on this. Nonetheless ask and you shall receive. Here comes about 45 of the new testament scriptures that very clearly state that the wicked will be destroyed/perished/killed/comsumed ect..... This is not an exhaustive list, even of the NT. But its still tons more evidence than you have for ECT.
Matthew 7:13 HCSB
“Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
Matthew 10:28 HCSB
Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Says nothing about destruction!Matthew 10:39 HCSB
Matthew 16:25 HCSB
A vineyard owner killing tenants is not destruction.Matthew 21:40-41 HCSB
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers? ” “He will completely destroy those terrible men,” they told Him, “and lease his vineyard to other farmers who will give him his produce at the harvest.”
A divided kingdom does not cease to exist, it is not "destroyed" in that sense.Luke 11:17 HCSB
Knowing their thoughts, He told them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and a house divided against itself falls.
They died as everyone dies. That is not destruction, i.e. cease to exist!Luke 17:26-30 HCSB
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, . . . fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all. ...
A king killing rebellious subjects is not destruction.Luke 19:27 HCSB
But bring here these enemies of mine, who did not want me to rule over them, and slaughter them in my presence.’ ”
The wages of sin is death which is not destruction.John 3:16 HCSB
“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 HCSB
“I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.
Says nothing about anyone perishing.John 10:27-28 HCSB
My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish — ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 17:12 HCSB
While I was with them, I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me. I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.
Does "destruction" here mean dying like the rebellious subjects in Luk 19:27?Romans 2:12 HCSB
All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
The wages of sin is death not destruction. Does "destruction" here mean dying like the rebellious subjects in Luk 19:27?Romans 6:16 HCSB
...either of sin leading to death ...?
Romans 6:21-23 HCSB
... For the wages of sin is death, ...
Romans 8:13 HCSB
... you are going to die.
Does "destruction" here mean dying like the rebellious subjects in Luk 19:27?Romans 9:22 HCSB
. . . objects of wrath ready for destruction?
1 Corinthians 3:17 HCSB
...God will destroy him;
The wages of sin is death not destruction. Falling dead and dying from snake bite is not destruction. According to many of your proof texts "destruction" merely means ordinary death.1 Corinthians 10:8-11 HCSB
Let us not commit sexual immorality as some of them did, and in a single day 23,000 people fell dead. Let us not test Christ as some of them did and were destroyed by snakes. Nor should we complain as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer.
Since death no longer exists, Rev 21:4, how can "cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars" die a second death 4 verses later Rev 21:8?. . .
Revelation 21:4 HCSB
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will no longer exist; grief, crying, and pain will exist no longer, because the previous things have passed away.
Revelation 21:8 HCSB
But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars — their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
personally, I could buy this IF it was not in scripture. In fact, I challenge traditional church teaching all the time...It is really sad when I read posts like this...first it's sad because I put the time and effort into making myself understood, secondly I have people complain because I am too condensed, then turn around and complain that I am too wordy and all to avoid actually dealing with what I said...truly sad indeed.Let me start with this; I hate long posts....both to me and from me. Too many rabbit trails open up. So I'm just going to answer your first paragraph, which will be plenty for me to write and for you to even begin to understand where I come from in my relationship with God and 'present' understanding about Him/us/bible. But I do want to finish the rest of your post as you've asked/shared several good/interesting talking points. Points which you may think I can answer with 'one liners' and I'm thinking 'one pagers'.....I'm serious....sorry. So, shorter is best IMO.
1. To start, 'I think the church is the one "hung up on the idea of eternal hell'.If the church was gone 'the idea' would be gone. If I was gone 'the idea' would most assuredly still be big, right? Second, your 'Hell definition' really is a 'secondarily' "shortest version" according to some, but definitely not everyone IMO. As for me, Hell is a man made English word which Jesus, who spoke Aramaic/Hebrew (Greek/Latin???), never spoke. He did talk about two places written to us originally in Greek as gehenna and hades though. And Gehenna/hades is two different words for two different places which covered up with one English word HELL. And then we have tartaroo, another Greek word, spoken of '1 Peter' but not by Jesus, which is another Greek word, also translated HELL. So, in all sincerity, your "shortest version" definition really falls short for me to begin with. But, just for a short 'discussion sake answer', can you back your "short version" def. with a scripture for me? BTW I do have 'Bible Dictionary definitions' of Gehenna/hades/tartaroo.
We had a guy in our church that did not believe in the trinity. In fact, he tried to argue it and even accused us of "killing our son" because we believe in trinity. Tell you what, that alone is enough for me to question the wisdom of non trinity belief. In fact, later I ran into him and he confessed he was wrong.2. And, moving on with your thinking, as for "Jesus being God". The trinity was argued over for 400 years before being settled, by a 'nominal church' who was in the first step of leading the whole world into the 'dark ages' (including spiritually). So, just to let you know where I stand on that whole issue, since you brought it up.I believe that when man was created, and for the next 4,000 years we had 'the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit'. All three of which existed as 'spirit'. A point which is still true according to the NT.
since you can't read an entire post even when I insist on only dealing with one topic at a time, we will skip this and only focus for the moment on hell...I mean, this post is long after all.JOH 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
As you can see, spirit isn't even capitalized, and translators got 'that' right in this verse IMO. But when triune God wanted to create a man after the likeness of His spirit image, He did so 4000 years before "THE WORD became flesh and dwelt among us" as Jesus. But, 'The Word' had a problem before becoming 'a man "in the likeness of sinful flesh'." (Rom 8:3)
PHI 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he WAS in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
well, in context, that is way to easy, but let me remind you we are suppose to be focused on hell so that you can follow long posts, by your own request. As to answer, He poured out His pride...you know, He humbled Himself...context when we get to this topicSo, in your opinion, what did 'the Word', which was 'after the likeness of God' (IMO), empty himself of, before He became Christ Jesus 'the MAN' made "in the likeness of sinful flesh"?
scripture says He suffered and even was tempted but did not sin. I can only base my understanding on scripture, but that again is making the response unduly long, so let's conform to your wishes and focus only on hell at the moment. You see, my post did just that, it stuck only to hell, you expanded on it to try to shame me for siding with the church on some of these issues. bottom line, I challenge the church more than I don't, so that accusation is just false. When we get to these topics, I will show you in scripture.3. "Jesus himself" wasn't "without sin"...your assumption then for having a get out of ETERNAL HELL privilege. Unless you know of a scripture to support such a view, I am of the view that He suffered everything I should have that I might have all of his 'IMPUTED' righteousness to enter into life in the ages to come...as well as in this age. My scriptural support is;
this is talking about the sins of the world being put on His account, but as you said, this is too long and off topic to deal with here.
2CO 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
So, if Jesus paid 'the debt' for everybody IMO it can not be 'eternal separation from God', because Jesus never paid that price after 'becoming sin'. Also, 'Being righteous' wasn't the price he paid. But, 'becoming righteousness fulfilled' was the 'price He paid' to obtain the position of BEING the perfect sacrifice.
it is so hard not to address these points, but I am really trying to stay focused as you asked...so hell first then all the rest of this.IOW, Jesus wasn't born the 'perfect sacrifice', he was born sinless, but he 'became 'perfect' by what he 'suffered'...a process which wasn't finished until His perfected obedience unto death....on the cross.
I did a really in depth and long study of suffering, would love to talk about this from the standpoint of scripture, but trying to stay focused as you asked so not to make this long.HEB 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
A 'suffering' process which finishes up my answer to #2. 'Jesus is God', above; A 'suffering process' where the Word emptied himself as equality with God, to become and live as a man in sinful flesh, but who, after obedience and suffering unto perfection and death, once again ascended unto the authority AS GOD again;
Not too much to deal with, but you wanted to keep it short and focused, so hell first then the rest of this...I thought they were all related which is why I tried to keep my post as short as possible, but you didn't see it that way and so I will save my breath till you are ready to deal with it.PHI 2:8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 THEREFORE God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
I'm going to assume, that "Jesus is God" POV from me, also falls into the category of...how did you say it; "I think your theology on this is new to some of us.."?
OK, I'm stopping because this is way to long for answering one paragraph of your post. Thoughts? Even if your thoughts are this is too much to even mess with. Just let me know.
Really not sure why you challenged me on this. Nonetheless ask and you shall receive. Here comes about 45 of the new testament scriptures that very clearly state that the wicked will be destroyed/perished/killed/comsumed ect..... This is not an exhaustive list, even of the NT. But its still tons more evidence than you have for ECT.
Matthew 7:13 HCSB
“Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
Matthew 10:28 HCSB
Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:39 HCSB
Anyone finding his life will lose it, and anyone losing his life because of Me will find it.
Matthew 16:25 HCSB
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of Me will find it.
Matthew 21:40-41 HCSB
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers? ” “He will completely destroy those terrible men,” they told Him, “and lease his vineyard to other farmers who will give him his produce at the harvest.”
Luke 11:17 HCSB
Knowing their thoughts, He told them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and a house divided against itself falls.
Luke 17:26-30 HCSB
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man: People went on eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah boarded the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It will be the same as it was in the days of Lot: People went on eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building. But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 19:27 HCSB
But bring here these enemies of mine, who did not want me to rule over them, and slaughter them in my presence.’ ”
John 3:16 HCSB
“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 HCSB
“I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.
John 10:27-28 HCSB
My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish — ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 17:12 HCSB
While I was with them, I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me. I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.
Romans 2:12 HCSB
All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Romans 6:16 HCSB
Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey — either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:21-23 HCSB
So what fruit was produced then from the things you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death. But now, since you have been liberated from sin and have become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification — and the end is eternal life! For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:13 HCSB
for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 9:22 HCSB
And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?
1 Corinthians 3:17 HCSB
If anyone destroys God’s sanctuary, God will destroy him; for God’s sanctuary is holy, and that is what you are.
1 Corinthians 10:8-11 HCSB
Let us not commit sexual immorality as some of them did, and in a single day 23,000 people fell dead. Let us not test Christ as some of them did and were destroyed by snakes. Nor should we complain as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written as a warning to us, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
1 Corinthians 15:16-18 HCSB
For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Therefore, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished.
1 Corinthians 15:32 HCSB
If I fought wild animals in Ephesus with only human hope, what good did that do me? If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
1 Corinthians 15:54-57 HCSB
When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
2 Corinthians 2:15-16 HCSB
For to God we are the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To some we are an aroma of death leading to death, but to others, an aroma of life leading to life. And who is competent for this?
2 Corinthians 4:3 HCSB
But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
Philippians 1:28 HCSB
not being frightened in any way by your opponents. This is a sign of destruction for them, but of your deliverance — and this is from God.
Philippians 3:19-20 HCSB
Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on earthly things, but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 HCSB
When they say, “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains come on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 HCSB
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God. Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, so that all will be condemned — those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 1:10 HCSB
This has now been made evident through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Hebrews 2:9 HCSB
But we do see Jesus — made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God’s grace He might taste death for everyone — crowned with glory and honor because of His suffering in death.
Hebrews 2:14-15 HCSB
Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death — that is, the Devil — and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear of death.
Hebrews 10:28-29 HCSB
If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:39 HCSB
But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and obtain life.
James 1:11 HCSB
For the sun rises with its scorching heat and dries up the grass; its flower falls off, and its beautiful appearance is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will wither away while pursuing his activities.
James 1:15 HCSB
Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.
James 4:12 HCSB
There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 5:19-20 HCSB
My brothers, if any among you strays from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins.
2 Peter 2:1-6 HCSB
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them. They will exploit you in their greed with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced long ago, is not idle, and their destruction does not sleep. For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment; and if He didn’t spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, when He brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; and if He reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to ruin, making them an example to those who were going to be ungodly
2 Peter 2:12-13 HCSB
But these people, like irrational animals — creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed — speak blasphemies about things they don’t understand, and in their destruction they too will be destroyed, suffering harm as the payment for unrighteousness. They consider it a pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, delighting in their deceptions as they feast with you.
1 John 3:14 HCSB
We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
1 John 5:12 HCSB
The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn’t have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:16-17 HCSB
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that does not bring death, he should ask, and God will give life to him — to those who commit sin that doesn’t bring death. There is sin that brings death. I am not saying he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin that does not bring death.
Jude 1:12-13 HCSB
These are the ones who are like dangerous reefs at your love feasts. They feast with you, nurturing only themselves without fear. They are waterless clouds carried along by winds; trees in late autumn — fruitless, twice dead, pulled out by the roots; wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever!
Revelation 11:18 HCSB
The nations were angry, but Your wrath has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, to the saints, and to those who fear Your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth.
Revelation 17:8 HCSB
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again.
Revelation 17:11 HCSB
The beast that was and is not, is himself an eighth king, yet he belongs to the seven and is going to destruction.
Revelation 19:20-21 HCSB
But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20:6 HCSB
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:13-15 HCSB
Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:4 HCSB
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will no longer exist; grief, crying, and pain will exist no longer, because the previous things have passed away.
Revelation 21:8 HCSB
But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars — their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”Matthew 7:13 HCSB
“Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
Matthew 10:28 HCSB
Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:39 HCSB
Anyone finding his life will lose it, and anyone losing his life because of Me will find it.
Matthew 16:25 HCSB
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of Me will find it.
Matthew 21:40-41 HCSB
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers? ” “He will completely destroy those terrible men,” they told Him, “and lease his vineyard to other farmers who will give him his produce at the harvest.”
Luke 11:17 HCSB
Knowing their thoughts, He told them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and a house divided against itself falls.
Luke 17:26-30 HCSB
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man: People went on eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah boarded the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It will be the same as it was in the days of Lot: People went on eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building. But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 19:27 HCSB
But bring here these enemies of mine, who did not want me to rule over them, and slaughter them in my presence.’ ”
John 3:16 HCSB
“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 HCSB
“I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.
John 10:27-28 HCSB
My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish — ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 17:12 HCSB
While I was with them, I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me. I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.
Romans 2:12 HCSB
All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Romans 6:16 HCSB
Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey — either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:21-23 HCSB
So what fruit was produced then from the things you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death. But now, since you have been liberated from sin and have become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification — and the end is eternal life! For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:13 HCSB
for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 9:22 HCSB
And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?
1 Corinthians 3:17 HCSB
If anyone destroys God’s sanctuary, God will destroy him; for God’s sanctuary is holy, and that is what you are.
1 Corinthians 10:8-11 HCSB
Let us not commit sexual immorality as some of them did, and in a single day 23,000 people fell dead. Let us not test Christ as some of them did and were destroyed by snakes. Nor should we complain as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written as a warning to us, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
1 Corinthians 15:16-18 HCSB
For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Therefore, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished.
1 Corinthians 15:32 HCSB
If I fought wild animals in Ephesus with only human hope, what good did that do me? If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
1 Corinthians 15:54-57 HCSB
When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
2 Corinthians 2:15-16 HCSB
For to God we are the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To some we are an aroma of death leading to death, but to others, an aroma of life leading to life. And who is competent for this?
2 Corinthians 4:3 HCSB
But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
Philippians 1:28 HCSB
not being frightened in any way by your opponents. This is a sign of destruction for them, but of your deliverance — and this is from God.
Philippians 3:19-20 HCSB
Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on earthly things, but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 HCSB
When they say, “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains come on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 HCSB
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God. Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, so that all will be condemned — those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 1:10 HCSB
This has now been made evident through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Hebrews 2:9 HCSB
But we do see Jesus — made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God’s grace He might taste death for everyone — crowned with glory and honor because of His suffering in death.
Hebrews 2:14-15 HCSB
Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death — that is, the Devil — and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear of death.
Hebrews 10:28-29 HCSB
If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:39 HCSB
But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and obtain life.
James 1:11 HCSB
For the sun rises with its scorching heat and dries up the grass; its flower falls off, and its beautiful appearance is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will wither away while pursuing his activities.
James 1:15 HCSB
Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.
James 4:12 HCSB
There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 5:19-20 HCSB
My brothers, if any among you strays from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins.
2 Peter 2:1-6 HCSB
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them. They will exploit you in their greed with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced long ago, is not idle, and their destruction does not sleep. For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment; and if He didn’t spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, when He brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; and if He reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to ruin, making them an example to those who were going to be ungodly
2 Peter 2:12-13 HCSB
But these people, like irrational animals — creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed — speak blasphemies about things they don’t understand, and in their destruction they too will be destroyed, suffering harm as the payment for unrighteousness. They consider it a pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, delighting in their deceptions as they feast with you.
1 John 3:14 HCSB
We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
1 John 5:12 HCSB
The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn’t have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:16-17 HCSB
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that does not bring death, he should ask, and God will give life to him — to those who commit sin that doesn’t bring death. There is sin that brings death. I am not saying he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin that does not bring death.
Jude 1:12-13 HCSB
These are the ones who are like dangerous reefs at your love feasts. They feast with you, nurturing only themselves without fear. They are waterless clouds carried along by winds; trees in late autumn — fruitless, twice dead, pulled out by the roots; wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever!
Revelation 11:18 HCSB
The nations were angry, but Your wrath has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, to the saints, and to those who fear Your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth.
Revelation 17:8 HCSB
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again.
Revelation 17:11 HCSB
The beast that was and is not, is himself an eighth king, yet he belongs to the seven and is going to destruction.
Revelation 19:20-21 HCSB
But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20:6 HCSB
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:13-15 HCSB
Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:4 HCSB
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will no longer exist; grief, crying, and pain will exist no longer, because the previous things have passed away.
Revelation 21:8 HCSB
But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars — their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”Matthew 7:13 HCSB
“Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
Matthew 10:28 HCSB
Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:39 HCSB
Anyone finding his life will lose it, and anyone losing his life because of Me will find it.
Matthew 16:25 HCSB
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of Me will find it.
Matthew 21:40-41 HCSB
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those farmers? ” “He will completely destroy those terrible men,” they told Him, “and lease his vineyard to other farmers who will give him his produce at the harvest.”
Luke 11:17 HCSB
Knowing their thoughts, He told them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and a house divided against itself falls.
Luke 17:26-30 HCSB
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man: People went on eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah boarded the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. It will be the same as it was in the days of Lot: People went on eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building. But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 19:27 HCSB
But bring here these enemies of mine, who did not want me to rule over them, and slaughter them in my presence.’ ”
John 3:16 HCSB
“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
John 5:24 HCSB
“I assure you: Anyone who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment but has passed from death to life.
John 10:27-28 HCSB
My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish — ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 17:12 HCSB
While I was with them, I was protecting them by Your name that You have given Me. I guarded them and not one of them is lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture may be fulfilled.
Romans 2:12 HCSB
All those who sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all those who sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Romans 6:16 HCSB
Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey — either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Romans 6:21-23 HCSB
So what fruit was produced then from the things you are now ashamed of? For the end of those things is death. But now, since you have been liberated from sin and have become enslaved to God, you have your fruit, which results in sanctification — and the end is eternal life! For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:13 HCSB
for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 9:22 HCSB
And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction?
1 Corinthians 3:17 HCSB
If anyone destroys God’s sanctuary, God will destroy him; for God’s sanctuary is holy, and that is what you are.
1 Corinthians 10:8-11 HCSB
Let us not commit sexual immorality as some of them did, and in a single day 23,000 people fell dead. Let us not test Christ as some of them did and were destroyed by snakes. Nor should we complain as some of them did, and were killed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written as a warning to us, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
1 Corinthians 15:16-18 HCSB
For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Therefore, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished.
1 Corinthians 15:32 HCSB
If I fought wild animals in Ephesus with only human hope, what good did that do me? If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.
1 Corinthians 15:54-57 HCSB
When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
2 Corinthians 2:15-16 HCSB
For to God we are the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To some we are an aroma of death leading to death, but to others, an aroma of life leading to life. And who is competent for this?
2 Corinthians 4:3 HCSB
But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
Philippians 1:28 HCSB
not being frightened in any way by your opponents. This is a sign of destruction for them, but of your deliverance — and this is from God.
Philippians 3:19-20 HCSB
Their end is destruction; their god is their stomach; their glory is in their shame. They are focused on earthly things, but our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:3 HCSB
When they say, “Peace and security,” then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains come on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 HCSB
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God. Don’t you remember that when I was still with you I told you about this? And you know what currently restrains him, so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one now restraining will do so until he is out of the way, and then the lawless one will be revealed. The Lord Jesus will destroy him with the breath of His mouth and will bring him to nothing with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is based on Satan’s working, with all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders, and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, so that all will be condemned — those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 1:10 HCSB
This has now been made evident through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who has abolished death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
Hebrews 2:9 HCSB
But we do see Jesus — made lower than the angels for a short time so that by God’s grace He might taste death for everyone — crowned with glory and honor because of His suffering in death.
Hebrews 2:14-15 HCSB
Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death — that is, the Devil — and free those who were held in slavery all their lives by the fear of death.
Hebrews 10:28-29 HCSB
If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Hebrews 10:39 HCSB
But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and obtain life.
James 1:11 HCSB
For the sun rises with its scorching heat and dries up the grass; its flower falls off, and its beautiful appearance is destroyed. In the same way, the rich man will wither away while pursuing his activities.
James 1:15 HCSB
Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.
James 4:12 HCSB
There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 5:19-20 HCSB
My brothers, if any among you strays from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his life from death and cover a multitude of sins.
2 Peter 2:1-6 HCSB
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and the way of truth will be blasphemed because of them. They will exploit you in their greed with deceptive words. Their condemnation, pronounced long ago, is not idle, and their destruction does not sleep. For if God didn’t spare the angels who sinned but threw them down into Tartarus and delivered them to be kept in chains of darkness until judgment; and if He didn’t spare the ancient world, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others, when He brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; and if He reduced the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes and condemned them to ruin, making them an example to those who were going to be ungodly
2 Peter 2:12-13 HCSB
But these people, like irrational animals — creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed — speak blasphemies about things they don’t understand, and in their destruction they too will be destroyed, suffering harm as the payment for unrighteousness. They consider it a pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, delighting in their deceptions as they feast with you.
1 John 3:14 HCSB
We know that we have passed from death to life because we love our brothers. The one who does not love remains in death.
1 John 5:12 HCSB
The one who has the Son has life. The one who doesn’t have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:16-17 HCSB
If anyone sees his brother committing a sin that does not bring death, he should ask, and God will give life to him — to those who commit sin that doesn’t bring death. There is sin that brings death. I am not saying he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin that does not bring death.
Jude 1:12-13 HCSB
These are the ones who are like dangerous reefs at your love feasts. They feast with you, nurturing only themselves without fear. They are waterless clouds carried along by winds; trees in late autumn — fruitless, twice dead, pulled out by the roots; wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shameful deeds; wandering stars for whom the blackness of darkness is reserved forever!
Revelation 11:18 HCSB
The nations were angry, but Your wrath has come. The time has come for the dead to be judged and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, to the saints, and to those who fear Your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth.
Revelation 17:8 HCSB
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again.
Revelation 17:11 HCSB
The beast that was and is not, is himself an eighth king, yet he belongs to the seven and is going to destruction.
Revelation 19:20-21 HCSB
But the beast was taken prisoner, and along with him the false prophet, who had performed the signs in his presence. He deceived those who accepted the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image with these signs. Both of them were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword that came from the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.
Revelation 20:6 HCSB
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
Revelation 20:13-15 HCSB
Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:4 HCSB
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will no longer exist; grief, crying, and pain will exist no longer, because the previous things have passed away.
Revelation 21:8 HCSB
But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars — their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
personally, I could buy this IF it was not in scripture. In fact, I challenge traditional church teaching all the time...It is really sad when I read posts like this...first it's sad because I put the time and effort into making myself understood, secondly I have people complain because I am too condensed, then turn around and complain that I am too wordy and all to avoid actually dealing with what I said...truly sad indeed.
As to the words used, I already talked about that long long time ago as did at least one other poster. In my understanding and as per my used of the words, hell is "lake of fire" the others as you say are other words. Now, where it is true that hell is a modern word, it's meaning is clear, lake of fire if you actually read anything I said to this point. We had a guy in our church that did not believe in the trinity. In fact, he tried to argue it and even accused us of "killing our son" because we believe in trinity. Tell you what, that alone is enough for me to question the wisdom of non trinity belief. In fact, later I ran into him and he confessed he was wrong.
So here is the thing....because of all of this, again, where I love challenging the church, I will only challenge them on things that the scriptures really do say. Trinity is not a question from the standpoint of scripture only from the standpoint of the church. IOW's it is the church that questions both hell and trinity not scripture. since you can't read an entire post even when I insist on only dealing with one topic at a time, we will skip this and only focus for the moment on hell...I mean, this post is long after all. well, in context, that is way to easy, but let me remind you we are suppose to be focused on hell so that you can follow long posts, by your own request. As to answer, He poured out His pride...you know, He humbled Himself...context when we get to this topic scripture says He suffered and even was tempted but did not sin. I can only base my understanding on scripture, but that again is making the response unduly long, so let's conform to your wishes and focus only on hell at the moment. You see, my post did just that, it stuck only to hell, you expanded on it to try to shame me for siding with the church on some of these issues. bottom line, I challenge the church more than I don't, so that accusation is just false. When we get to these topics, I will show you in scripture. this is talking about the sins of the world being put on His account, but as you said, this is too long and off topic to deal with here. it is so hard not to address these points, but I am really trying to stay focused as you asked...so hell first then all the rest of this. I did a really in depth and long study of suffering, would love to talk about this from the standpoint of scripture, but trying to stay focused as you asked so not to make this long. Not too much to deal with, but you wanted to keep it short and focused, so hell first then the rest of this...I thought they were all related which is why I tried to keep my post as short as possible, but you didn't see it that way and so I will save my breath till you are ready to deal with it.
Why was I censored here? I didnt cuss. Ah well. Der alter or whatever, your post is still the most hilarious one of the night. Again thank you for the laugh. I think, after reading all your definitions of appollumi, your basic argument is that appolumi cannot mean destruction cuz it clearly means death. Ahahahahah oh wow I couldnt even finish that last sentence without laughing agahahahahahahahah
Since death no longer exists, Rev 21:4, how can "cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars" die a second death 4 verses later Rev 21:8?
I came to that conclusion more than a decade ago after I had been at this forum for a while. It is almost impossible to reach the hardcore heterodox. My purpose now is to keep presenting the truth and I might be able to reach those on the fence thinking about joining or quitting one of the false teaching groups.Honestly my friend, there is nothing we can say that will be acceptable on this subject to those who are dug in.
Ahahahahahaha wow just when I thought you couldn't get any funnier, you do. Ahahah this response is so nonsensical that, if I didnt know that you were simply trying to be funny, Id ask them to commit you.
As I stated earlier, I appreciate the comedy though. You really do belong in Hollywood.
personally, I could buy this IF it was not in scripture. In fact, I challenge traditional church teaching all the time...It is really sad when I read posts like this...first it's sad because I put the time and effort into making myself understood, secondly I have people complain because I am too condensed, then turn around and complain that I am too wordy and all to avoid actually dealing with what I said...truly sad indeed.
As to the words used, I already talked about that long long time ago as did at least one other poster. In my understanding and as per my used of the words, hell is "lake of fire" the others as you say are other words. Now, where it is true that hell is a modern word, it's meaning is clear, lake of fire if you actually read anything I said to this point. We had a guy in our church that did not believe in the trinity. In fact, he tried to argue it and even accused us of "killing our son" because we believe in trinity. Tell you what, that alone is enough for me to question the wisdom of non trinity belief. In fact, later I ran into him and he confessed he was wrong.
So here is the thing....because of all of this, again, where I love challenging the church, I will only challenge them on things that the scriptures really do say. Trinity is not a question from the standpoint of scripture only from the standpoint of the church. IOW's it is the church that questions both hell and trinity not scripture. since you can't read an entire post even when I insist on only dealing with one topic at a time, we will skip this and only focus for the moment on hell...I mean, this post is long after all. well, in context, that is way to easy, but let me remind you we are suppose to be focused on hell so that you can follow long posts, by your own request. As to answer, He poured out His pride...you know, He humbled Himself...context when we get to this topic scripture says He suffered and even was tempted but did not sin. I can only base my understanding on scripture, but that again is making the response unduly long, so let's conform to your wishes and focus only on hell at the moment. You see, my post did just that, it stuck only to hell, you expanded on it to try to shame me for siding with the church on some of these issues. bottom line, I challenge the church more than I don't, so that accusation is just false. When we get to these topics, I will show you in scripture. this is talking about the sins of the world being put on His account, but as you said, this is too long and off topic to deal with here. it is so hard not to address these points, but I am really trying to stay focused as you asked...so hell first then all the rest of this. I did a really in depth and long study of suffering, would love to talk about this from the standpoint of scripture, but trying to stay focused as you asked so not to make this long. Not too much to deal with, but you wanted to keep it short and focused, so hell first then the rest of this...I thought they were all related which is why I tried to keep my post as short as possible, but you didn't see it that way and so I will save my breath till you are ready to deal with it.
personally, I could buy this IF it was not in scripture. In fact, I challenge traditional church teaching all the time...It is really sad when I read posts like this...first it's sad because I put the time and effort into making myself understood, secondly I have people complain because I am too condensed, then turn around and complain that I am too wordy and all to avoid actually dealing with what I said...truly sad indeed.
As to the words used, I already talked about that long long time ago as did at least one other poster. In my understanding and as per my used of the words, hell is "lake of fire" the others as you say are other words. Now, where it is true that hell is a modern word, it's meaning is clear, lake of fire if you actually read anything I said to this point. We had a guy in our church that did not believe in the trinity. In fact, he tried to argue it and even accused us of "killing our son" because we believe in trinity. Tell you what, that alone is enough for me to question the wisdom of non trinity belief. In fact, later I ran into him and he confessed he was wrong.
So here is the thing....because of all of this, again, where I love challenging the church, I will only challenge them on things that the scriptures really do say. Trinity is not a question from the standpoint of scripture only from the standpoint of the church. IOW's it is the church that questions both hell and trinity not scripture. since you can't read an entire post even when I insist on only dealing with one topic at a time, we will skip this and only focus for the moment on hell...I mean, this post is long after all. well, in context, that is way to easy, but let me remind you we are suppose to be focused on hell so that you can follow long posts, by your own request. As to answer, He poured out His pride...you know, He humbled Himself...context when we get to this topic scripture says He suffered and even was tempted but did not sin. I can only base my understanding on scripture, but that again is making the response unduly long, so let's conform to your wishes and focus only on hell at the moment. You see, my post did just that, it stuck only to hell, you expanded on it to try to shame me for siding with the church on some of these issues. bottom line, I challenge the church more than I don't, so that accusation is just false. When we get to these topics, I will show you in scripture. this is talking about the sins of the world being put on His account, but as you said, this is too long and off topic to deal with here. it is so hard not to address these points, but I am really trying to stay focused as you asked...so hell first then all the rest of this. I did a really in depth and long study of suffering, would love to talk about this from the standpoint of scripture, but trying to stay focused as you asked so not to make this long. Not too much to deal with, but you wanted to keep it short and focused, so hell first then the rest of this...I thought they were all related which is why I tried to keep my post as short as possible, but you didn't see it that way and so I will save my breath till you are ready to deal with it.
thanks, I needed the encouragement today.You seem to be well grounded in the Word my brother and I impressed by your attitude and way of presenting the truth of God's Word.
Keep up the good work and try to not get depressed by the rejection of you presenting the truth o Scripture.
I think you read that in a manner other than how it was intended. You see, I love to actually be challenged and I actually was enjoying talking with you. But to be brutally honest, I was intentional about keeping my posts as short as possible, I was intentional about expressing my challenge to anyone that is contrary to scripture including the church, and this is how you took all of that honesty. That hurts my friend. Everything in that post was relevant to the point I was making, everything and all you could do was talk about the first paragraph and accuse me of just listening to the church, both of which are offensive from someone who is careful to 1. stay on topic and 2. challenge anyone who is in opposition to scripture.I actually was tracking for a fairly short response, but it was tough with all your 'hurts' from me, bleeding out of each new paragraph. I wanted to defend each one of them but kept staying on topic. But your last few sentence really just reveals a healthier course change IMO. I was hoping we could dialogue maturely and I thought I was being non offensive. Guess I failed, so lets give in to your 'last sentence request' and I'll let you save your breath "until I'm ready to deal with it". But my advice is 'don't hold your breath too long'.
Cut the Bee-Ess. Death and detsruction mean death and destruction. Its that simple. Once again, you reinterpret numerous passages in order to fit in with a few. Your exegesis is dishonest and downright insane. Death and destruction are synonymous.let's start here...if death and destruction are synonyms....no I do not agree with this but we are going to see if we can use this to justify your claims....and the death we are talking about is the second death, that is eternity in the lake of fire, then it would stand to reason and logic to suggest that destruction does NOT mean annihilation in this instance. IOW's like in some of the rest of the definitions people are trying to use in this discussion, the meaning is solely determined by the premise of presupposition being presented. This is exactly why we need to reconcile all scriptures on the matter instead of just taking the ones we like.but see, this is exactly what some of us have been telling you all....the meaning is NOT as clear as you want to pretend which is why we need to look at context not only of the passage and how it is used throughout scripture but also in the context of all of the scriptures. No picking and choosing and no removal of context will result in an understanding that is pleasing to God.You know it. I know it. So cut the nonsense. One of the main rules of proper exegesis is to take scripture at its plain meaning. Unless something is unclear. Hundreds and hundreds of scriptures that clearly state that the end of the wicked is death destruction perishing is plain as day.It seems like both sides see the same thing in each other which is why I do not ask or seek agreement only comprehension and understanding of where the other side is coming from. that to me seems not only a noble goal, but a lofty one from some on this thread.Again what makes me so mad is not that youre mishandling the scriptures, but rather the fact that you know youre doing it. Quit trying to change the plain meaning of hundreds of texts. Its dishonest, its unchristlike, and its borderline psychotic
Really no soul destroyed?It goes without saying that God can destroy anything He created but there is not one verse which says God has or will destroy a single soul.
thanks, I needed the encouragement today.
Here are some verses supporting that even the spiritually dead have a 'spirit' in them, especially Ezek 21:7
Even that depends on how you would define the understanding of the word 'spirit'.
God does not say put a spirit in them, He says put a 'new spirit', which implies they already had an old spirit in them.
Ezekiel 11:19
Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 21:7
And it shall be when they say to you, ‘Why are you sighing?’ that you shall answer, ‘Because of the news; when it comes, every heart will melt, all hands will be feeble, every spirit will faint, and all knees will be weak as water. Behold, it is coming and shall be brought to pass,’ says the Lord God.”
Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
FYI, some or all of these passages were presented to the "no spirit in man" crowd and they refused to respond.Here are some verses supporting that even the spiritually dead have a 'spirit' in them, especially Ezek 21:7
Even that depends on how you would define the understanding of the word 'spirit'.
God does not say put a spirit in them, He says put a 'new spirit', which implies they already had an old spirit in them.
Ezekiel 11:19
Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?
Ezekiel 21:7
And it shall be when they say to you, ‘Why are you sighing?’ that you shall answer, ‘Because of the news; when it comes, every heart will melt, all hands will be feeble, every spirit will faint, and all knees will be weak as water. Behold, it is coming and shall be brought to pass,’ says the Lord God.”
Ezekiel 36:26
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
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