The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Kenny'sID said:

Though we don't get to make up what Hell entails, it has to be biblical, I'm with you on that and assume we are both just undecided. Yes, knowing at least roughly, if not exactly what this supposed eternal punishment entails, would help a lot.


So I ask the OP, Achilles6129 whom I assume is at least somewhat of an expert on the question....how are we punished in Hell, exactly what takes place?

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Yes, I am undecided on the subject.

razzelflabben said:

as I was studying the topic, I made a list of what we do know from scripture and what we do not know. Care to do that here? From your study what do we know and what don't we know about hell?

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I can't list what we don't know since, well, we don't know

What do we know? Here are my opinions:

• There is a notion of some state after death that is qualitatively different from both non-being and "heaven" (of which we also don't know very much...)
• This state may have some duration.
• This state is described in undesirable terms

alexandriaisburning said:

Probably because the Scriptures say very little that is definitive regarding the subject. Once you strip away parable and apocalyptic imagery, there is not much to provide any grounds for articulating a definitive doctrine. So the, we have to reason our way to an understanding of the nature of "after-life" by other means, such as contemplating the nature of God, etc.

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"Once you strip away parable and apocalyptic imagery," This seems to be a standard practice with a lot of folks. When scripture as written disproves someone's doctrine simply dismiss it as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal.

There have been many threads about this topic---both sides have presented their scriptures---over and over---both sides remain on opposite sides. So now, I guess, we start debating philosophical ideas. Which is fine, but on other threads when that has been used, then the other side says we should not discuss human philosophy but biblical truth--back to both sides arguing over what is biblical truth.

OK---nothing changes--debate goes on.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

That is what the bible says---Eternal life is the gift of God for the saved, death is the wager of sin. When that is presented, there is an endless argument about what is death! Death is separation from God theory, and death isn't really death! That "perish" does not mean to cease to exist! Eternal life is living with God, death is eternal life without God--if death is eternal life without God, how is that different from eternal life with God--both are eternal life---eternal life is given only to the saved.
Of course, then that goes into how does God accomplish eternal life? How was it given to Adam and Eve--they were given of the Tree of Life and Water of Life---and were caste out of Eden and the Tree guarded to keep them from eating of it and living forever in sin. The saved are given the privilege of eating of the Tree again, which bears 12 different kinds of fruit and we get to even eat the leaves of it. Eternal life in hell therefore requires what to continue to live in order to continue to burn?? Do the saved toss the fruit and leaves from the tree to the lost to keep them living, or is that the job of the angels?? But when that is presented then there is the statement made that God doesn't have to have us eat of it in order to live forever, regardless of what the bible says---

When there are 2 ideas that seem to contradict, the character of God Himself should then be used to arrive at a biblically correct understanding of a thing. And what is the character of God--back to the bible---

Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Num_14:18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
Psa_86:15 But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
2Co_6:6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
There are many other verses along this line
Job_8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?
Job_37:23 Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.
Psa_89:14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Deu_32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Pro_11:1 A false balance is abomination to the LORD: but a just weight is his delight.
Lev_19:36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.
Gal_5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Even we, as humans, can see there is no justice if I were to spank my child every day of its life for the next 50 years for having once eaten a cookie when told not to. To imprison a man for the rest of his life for having stolen $1.00 would be considered unthinkable and unjust. In North Korea some official was just shot, for having had bad posture giving the impression he was sleeping at a meeting---and we are shocked. But that God would condemn a 14 year old child to an eternity of everlasting pain and agony (or whatever you feel is the right interpretation of hell)
for having stolen $5.00 is perfectly just.
Job_4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

razzelflabben said:

achilles can answer for himself but from my study of scripture, hell isn't a punishment at all, hell is the consequence for sin.

We build this case by first looking at Gen. What was Eve's punishment for sin? Painful childbirth, right? What was Adams? Weeds. Even the serpents punishment was to crawl on his belly. But what of death? That would happen with sin, it's even a different structure...it is the consequence of sin not the punishment for it. We see this later in the wages (that which is earned) is death (hell) ...also look at the OT temple and sacrifices. Death is the consequence of sin and in order to satisfy that natural law death must be paid for any sin committed. Christ offered to pay that debt, to satisfy that consequence by dying in our place.

Until we understand that death/hell is the consequence of sin not the punishment for our sin, hell will most likely not make any sense at all.

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If someone will explain just what that consequence entails, it would make a lot more sense to me. That's all I'm really asking, so be it consequence or punishment, the question remains the same.

alexandriaisburning said:

I can't list what we don't know since, well, we don't know

What do we know? Here are my opinions:

• There is a notion of some state after death that is qualitatively different from both non-being and "heaven" (of which we also don't know very much...)
• This state may have some duration.
• This state is described in undesirable terms

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try this on for size, I welcome anyone to add but I suggest adding only with scripture support.
1. we know that hell was created for Satan and the demons...Matthew 25:41
2. we know if it a firey lake of sulfur...Rev. 21:8
3. we know that the wicked will end up there...Rev. 21:8; Matthew 25:46
4. it is eternal...II Thess. 1:9
5. it is torment...Matthew 13:50; Mark 9:43
6. death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire...Rev. 20:13-14

what we do not know...
1. Matthew 10:28...will the people destined for hell be destroyed? Possible meaning of the word destroy from Strong's concordance

1. to destroy
   
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
      
      
   2. render useless
      
      
   3. to kill
      
      
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
      
      
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
      
      
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
      
2. to destroy
   
   
   1. to lose
      So not really clear...especially given what we do know

2. Proverbs 23:14....the word here sometimes translated punishment really means...to beat as in correct so that they do not go to hell, so where some would use this as argument for punishment it is not punishment is hell it is punishment prevents hell.
3. Jude 1:7 is also used to justify punishment as hell but Strongs says the word means

1. custom, usage
   
   
2. right, just
   
   
3. a suit at law
   
   
4. a judicial hearing, judicial decision, esp. sentence of condemnation
   
   
5. execution of a sentence, punishment
   
   1. to suffer punishment
      
6. the goddess Justice, avenging justice
   

Taking us back to what is earned or owed according to the law.


Well, that about covers it for me for the moment, as I said, I personally welcome anything else we can put on the list.

Kenny'sID said:

If someone will explain just what that consequence entails, it would make a lot more sense to me. That's all I'm really asking, so be it consequence or punishment, the question remains the same.

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I just provided a list of the things we know and don't know about hell is that what you need? I'm not really sure what you are asking for...

razzelflabben said:

Hell is the consequence not the punishment so there is nothing and no reason to try to separate the two. We choose who we will serve, sin which leads to death or God who leads to life.

So if you or I or Joe down the road chooses to serve sin which leads to death/hell, who are you to say that is wrong, immoral, horrible, unjust or any other accusation against it. Isn't freedom to choose a precious gift that we should want to hold tightly too?

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I don't follow your reasoning at all. I think it's a lot simpler than you choose to make it for some reason.

"The wages of sin are death". Wages can also be thought of as say, getting paid for doing our job, they are a reward for our work as well as a consequence to our working. A wrong choice there would be no wages and that would be the consequence of us not working.

And I feel silly for even having to explain that.... seems so obvious to me.

Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

razzelflabben said:

I just provided a list of the things we know and don't know about hell is that what you need? I'm not really sure what you are asking for...

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Specifics on exactly how the punishment is implemented. But you call it something other than punishment and sort of head of in another direction or can't answer because of you views on what it is, or something. Also you say you posted what we know, and maybe that;s all we know and maybe it's not, and maybe some use what we do know to draw reasonable conclusion on what exactly the punishment will be, and if that's all we have, I'd like to hear that too.

What ever I can get.

Kenny'sID said:

I don't follow your reasoning at all. I think it's a lot simpler than you choose to make it for some reason.

"The wages of sin are death". Wages can also be thought of as say, getting paid for doing our job, they are a reward for our work as well as a consequence to our working. A wrong choice there would be no wages and that would be the consequence of us not working.

And I feel silly for even having to explain that.... seems so obvious to me.

Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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read what you wrote again...wages can be earned or not earned depending on the context...I provided a lot of context to show how the word would be used and the context shows consequences not punishment....context is vital to good communication as well as understanding the intent of a passage.

I should add, if nothing else is available, for instance opinions and backing for those opinions, the lists are a good start.

razzelflabben said:

read what you wrote again...wages can be earned or not earned depending on the context...I provided a lot of context to show how the word would be used and the context shows consequences not punishment....context is vital to good communication as well as understanding the intent of a passage.

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I read it when I wrote it, and it still makes perfect sense to me, but this is not the subject, so again, for that and other reasons, I'd like to stick with agree to disagree.

Kenny'sID said:

Specifics on exactly how the punishment is implemented.

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wow...okay, on judgment day God gets out the Lambs Book of Life and looks for our name. If it is there, we go to eternity with God is not, we go to eternity away from God, aka hell. That is pretty much how the "punishment/consequence is carried out according to scripture. I will not provide scripture since you apparently don't read them anyway or care if they are presented.

But you call it something other than punishment and sort of head of in another direction or can't answer because of you views on what it is, or something.

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I have no idea what your intent here is if not to dismiss what I am saying and further insight me to anger....I presented the case for consequences in scripture and no one has refuted it so far. If you want to refute it please do I encourage it but don't just play some game as if you don't know what I am saying.

Also you say you posted what we know, and maybe that;s all we know and maybe it's not, and maybe some use what we do know to draw reasonable conclusion on what exactly the punishment will be, and if that's all we have, I'd like to hear that too.

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because I don't have my exhaustive list readily in hand I looked up someone else list of passages that refer to hell and went off that list. further I asked several times that if I missed something someone would add to our list. So far no one has...I'm anxious to see if anyone does, but I don't know what else you want me to say, I am basing the list off what the bible says not what some teacher teaches and that was clear from the get go. You are invited to add passages to the list...in fact, I encourage it.

Kenny'sID said:

I read it when I wrote it, and it still makes perfect sense to me, but this is not the subject, so again, for that and other reasons, I'd like to stick with agree to disagree.

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I don't know what I am suppose to agree or disagree with, you support what I say then say you disagree because you support what I said....that is very confusing to the point that I don't know if I agree or disagree.

Der Alter said:

"Once you strip away parable and apocalyptic imagery," This seems to be a standard practice with a lot of folks. When scripture as written disproves someone's doctrine simply dismiss it as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal.

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I never said it should be dismissed; but it does, I think, signal particular interpretive considerations that have to be applied.

Furthermore, your objection is based on the assumption that allegorical, figurative, and mythological language are somehow "less than" in value than the "literal". This very modern interpretive bias is certainly not one that I am proposing.

razzelflabben said:

wow...okay, on judgment day God gets out the Lambs Book of Life and looks for our name. If it is there, we go to eternity with God is not, we go to eternity away from God, aka hell.

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What an extraordinarily material view of God this presents. Do you understand the role of genre in literature (not to mention interpretation!) at all?

Achilles6129 said:

In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Discuss.

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We should go from the BASiCS:

There are two places separated and occupied by being a Christian or not. They are:
Heaven; and
Non-Heaven.

Hell (Lake of Fire), is A PART of the non-Heaven. There are other places outside the Heaven, but are not in the Hell.

This understanding is directly based on what's described in the Revelation.
Any objection?

razzelflabben said:

wow...okay, on judgment day God gets out the Lambs Book of Life and looks for our name. If it is there, we go to eternity with God is not, we go to eternity away from God, aka hell. That is pretty much how the "punishment/consequence is carried out according to scripture. I will not provide scripture since you apparently don't read them anyway or care if they are presented. I have no idea what your intent here is if not to dismiss what I am saying and further insight me to anger....I presented the case for consequences in scripture and no one has refuted it so far. If you want to refute it please do I encourage it but don't just play some game as if you don't know what I am saying. because I don't have my exhaustive list readily in hand I looked up someone else list of passages that refer to hell and went off that list. further I asked several times that if I missed something someone would add to our list. So far no one has...I'm anxious to see if anyone does, but I don't know what else you want me to say, I am basing the list off what the bible says not what some teacher teaches and that was clear from the get go. You are invited to add passages to the list...in fact, I encourage it.

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razzelflabben said:

I don't know what I am suppose to agree or disagree with,

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razzelflabben said:

I don't know what I am suppose to agree or disagree with, you support what I say then say you disagree because you support what I said....that is very confusing to the point that I don't know if I agree or disagree.

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The answer may not be, but I ask a simple question on what exactly the punishment entails and I get all this from you, then try polity to end it to no avail.

How bout "we're done, Razzel"

And try not to take offense to that, it's really not intended as anything but a way to bluntly get my point across, a point that I've had no luck with up to now.

juvenissun said:

This understanding is directly based on what's described in the Revelation.
Any objection?

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The most significant objection would be why this should be considered as formative for a doctrine of hell, when the same book of Revelation describes God in material terms. If the existence of the "lake of fire" is presumed because of its mention in Revelation, should we not also change our doctrinal formulations to consider God as a material being, since such an image is presented in Revelation as well?

razzelflabben said:

wow...okay, on judgment day God gets out the Lambs Book of Life and looks for our name. If it is there, we go to eternity with God is not, we go to eternity away from God, aka hell.

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If you could provide a scripture that says eternal life is given to the lost and the saved it would be of help.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh_12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh_17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti_6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
Tit_1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit_3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1Jn_1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn_5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Jud_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.