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No I didn't, the smoke of there torment in the place prepared for the devil and his angels doesn't mean they suffer forever.
We're talking about 'character' issues. Does punishment of children help purify their character?
Don't know what to tell you other than 'dueling sources;;
And, according to my source the Latin purus derived from the Greek pyr/pur.
Etymology of pure « English Words of (Unexpected) Greek Origin.
https://ewonago.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/etymology-of-pure/
Mar 7, 2009 - Etymology of pure. Pure comes from the Latin purus, which derives from the Greek pyr/pur (fire, πύρ; gen: puros, πυρός), as initially fire was ...
Tell that to God. It was He who didn't "predestine, draw, call and ordain to believe" in this age.
But you just said in your first sentence that the fire described in scripture inflicts punishment. So why were the disciples being punished with literal fire for receiving the Holy Spirit? What sense does that make to you?
And what was 'punishing' about the flaming bush of God, which Moses encountered? A bush where God said "Take off your shoes. Why? I think it's because the fire of God MAKES HOLY.
Again, your original post doesn't make sense. You are saying that the wicked are murdering God for all eternity. Do they have a time machine whereby they are attempting to kill God thru out all eternity or time? Makes for a nice science fiction novel but it doesn't sound like reality to me. Yes, a person who hates his brother is like a murderer (1 John 3:15), but the crime for someone hating their brother should not be infinite just because the individual (they are committing the crime against) is immortal. For example: The Marvels comic book character named Wolverine is basically immortal (because he has a mutant healing factor). So are you saying that crimes committed against Wolverine should be more extreme or for all time just because he lives longer than others? Or are you saying because God is more important than others is the reason why they should be punished for all eternity? For example: You might say that the crime committed against a leader of a country is more severe and it is justified because they are more important. But even the crime against such an individual would have it's limits, though. The punishment still has to ultimately fit the crime no matter who is the recipient of the sin or crime. It's what fair justice is all about.
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Wrong! "Torture" and "torment" are not the same in English.It's the same as the word "torment."
Because that's bot what it says it says the smoke if their torment rises forever, that doesn't equivocate with them suffering forever.No? Why not? That's exactly what the passage says. If "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" then they suffer forever.
there is only one eternal life that I know of...there is an eternal death and since you refuse to address anything I am saying, I'll pass on reposting all of my responses. they are after all a matter of record.
Why wouldn't it?Because that's bot what it says it says the smoke if their torment rises forever, that doesn't equivocate with them suffering forever.
there is only one eternal life that I know of...there is an eternal death and since you refuse to address anything I am saying, I'll pass on reposting all of my responses. they are after all a matter of record. as I have repeatedly told you, scripture says that hell is the consequence of sin, not some punishment. So if you expect to have a dialogue with me, you need to reflect what I am saying to you in some fashion or other. In fact, I took one of the passages that supposedly supported the other versions of hell and showed in context not only that man was immortal according to the text but that hell is the consequence of sin. Now repeatedly I have asked you to show what is immoral about hell being a consequence of sin, just like the analogies I have given of stubbing a toe or losing a finger and you refuse to answer those questions so that you can come here and act like the only version of ECT is your version...no thank you...If you can't respond to me and what I said, then stop quoting me and addressing things I didn't say and don't believe. I pointed this out long ago, but that also means that they do die, that is how the verse reads. Just because God doesn't take pleasure in their death doesn't mean it doesn't happen....btw, do you know whose death He did take pleasure in? It stumps a lot of people...Look at Isaiah 53 for the answer and then tell me how out of character it is for God to be just. Cause if you are responding to me, what you are responding to is me saying that God is just and as such He is love, mercy, compassion, grace, etc. lol we already looked up the translation of the word there and showed that to be a flawed translation... and???? as a consequence of sin there is nothing in it that is contrary to God's character and you have repeatedly testified to that by refusing to address how it is...and????I said that long long ago...not sure what you point is and btw, the way you wrote that paragraph I am not sure you even know what you are trying to say. Remember when I said that "hell fire" as a reason to believe does more damage than good in my opinion? Remember when I said that we should teach hell fire in proportions equal to that of Christ? Remember when I said that hell is not taught in scripture as a "preventive measure" for sin or unbelief? Remember...ah, that is just it, you don't remember so you feel justified to twist what I said and believe into something I didn't say and don't believe so that you can attack me for your inability to write a paragraph that is coherent....that is a very righteous way to handle your opinion, don't you think?
No? Why not? That's exactly what the passage says. If "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" then they suffer forever.
In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.
I suggest the following:
1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell
This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:
1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell
Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.
Discuss.
There are three Greek words translated "life" in the NT, zoe, bios and psuche. Only zoe is used with aionios. "aionios" not only speaks to the duration but also the quality of "zoe."Me, too. But if you are in a conscious state of torment forever, then you are conscious, alive, forever. And you can play footsie all you want with "conscious", "alive" --whatever. If you're being tormented forever and are aware of it, you are conscious and alive. And you will not convince me otherwise.
Because that's not what it's saying plain and simple. Now I'm not entirely convinced of annilation in perdition but the majority of the proof texts allow for it.Why wouldn't it?
Chapter/verse, please.Do you believe that those that go to hell are the children of God? Scripture calls them children of Satan.
Unfortunately, for most here, that is only true when it's 'their' source that's missing something. Mine was STRONG'sWell, if a source is mistaken it's not really a big deal. It's one letter, so it really doesn't matter.
A bible which is as deep or as shallow as the one reading it and coming to their view of God's nature and character I suppose.Doesn't matter, and some blogger wrote that, it's not from a dictionary. I am unable to find a dictionary that says that purus comes from the Greek word for fire, but it's irrelevant. It's irrelevant because the fire in hell tortures and doesn't purify, and this is made clear by the Bible.
As culpable as God made them to be as descendants of Adam. I never asked for the sin nature. DID YOU?Ah. So you don't believe that they're culpable in this age, then?
Now you're starting to reason, that's good. Fire on the heads of the disciples was GOOD, but why? Fire's function in cooking wieners is good, but cooking people is not good.They weren't. Fire obviously has different functions. In the case of the wicked, it inflicts punishment.
You prove my point. You see God destroying people, I see God destroying wickedness being done by people He made sinners by nature. But God gives hope for ALL sinners in the ages to come and the fulfillment of the plan of the ages. You believe ETERNAL TORTURE for almost ALL, and want me to believe God agrees with you. I don't, of course.Well, here are just a few examples of the fire of God punishing:
"9 Then the king sent to him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him, and behold, he was sitting on the top of the hill. And he said to him, “O man of God, the king says, ‘Come down.’” 10 Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty.” Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty." 2 Kings 1:9-10 (NASB)
"9 Also the daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by harlotry, she profanes her father; she shall be burned with fire." Lev. 21:9 (NASB)
"Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them. 2 And fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord." Lev. 10:1-2 (NASB)
Incidentally, in the above passage (all annihilationists should note this) the fire of YHWH "consumed" Nadab and Abihu, yet we find out later that it didn't actually destroy their bodies at all. This means that "consume" in the above passage obviously means something dreadful happened to them, but it's not in the context of the annihilation of their bodies.
"4 Moses called also to Mishael and Elzaphan, the sons of Aaron’s uncle Uzziel, and said to them, “Come forward, carry your relatives away from the front of the sanctuary to the outside of the camp.” 5 So they came forward and carried them still in their tunics to the outside of the camp, as Moses had said." Lev. 10:4-5 (NASB)
Obviously if they had been totally annihilated they could not have been carried out.
That same word can mean sorrow, torment is too much like tourcher. Mideviel images of sadiomasichistic demons tourchering the fallen were fables. Hell is miserable because it's utter darkness and the expectation of the fires of perdition.tor·ture1
/ˈtôrCHər/
noun
tor·ment1
- the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.
noun
For what it's worth.
- severe physical or mental suffering:
Doesn't the Bible promise eternal torment, NOT torture?
Isn't that torment everlasting cutting off from God?
I do not subscribe to the notion of a literal hell of fire and torture.
To me "hell" is everlasting cutting off from the sunlight of the
spirit. (God)
To each their own understanding.
Because that's not what it's saying plain and simple.
tor·ture1
/ˈtôrCHər/
noun
tor·ment1
- the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.
noun
For what it's worth.
- severe physical or mental suffering:
Doesn't the Bible promise eternal torment, NOT torture?
Isn't that torment everlasting cutting off from God?
I do not subscribe to the notion of a literal hell of fire and torture.
To me "hell" is everlasting cutting off from the sunlight of the
spirit. (God)
To each their own understanding.
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