The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

mark kennedy said:

Same problem, I understand your sensibilities here but we are still dealing with the exposition and some pretty complicated hermetical problems with consistency. Both Hell and death are destroyed in the Lake of Fire, there is some room for total annihilation but this fire never goes out. I can't help but wonder if even though the fire burns forever what has been thrown in does not.

Click to expand...

Hell in the Bible has had several meanings: Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus. I would include the Lake of Fire under the term Hell, too. It is the final, eternal Hell in which the unrepentant wicked and the devil and his demons are tormented for ever and ever. I might not be entirely precise in calling the Lake of Fire, Hell, but I think the average believer thinks of Hell as the Lake of Fire. If it helps, I can use "Lake of Fire" instead of Hell.

Hell is punishment. But punishment that is not consciously experienced is not punishment. One cannot punish a rock or a tree. Annihilation entails the extinguishing of consciousness so annihilation cannot be in view in those places where the Bible speaks of eternal punishment. Consider the following quotation:

"The punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 cannot be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear in this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness. Bible scholar John Gerstner comments, 'One can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.' " (pg. 331)

"How do we know that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. As Bible scholar Alan Gomes explains it, 'one is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.)' The very fact that people will suffer degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts." (pg. 332)

"Moreover, one cannot deny that for a person who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing, not a punishment. As theologian William Shedd notes, 'The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse.' Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define eternal punishment as an extinction of consciousness.

Torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Alan Gomes comments, 'A punishment that is not felt is not punishment..."

Note also in Matthew 25:46 that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihiliationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective "aionion" in this verse means "everlasting, without end." ...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God. Moreover, as Professor Gomes notes,

'What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the
duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with
the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios"
is used to describe both the length of punishment for the
wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One
cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked with-
out at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for
the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it
an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a
limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked.'"

- Ron Rhodes, "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses."

Selah.

Kenny'sID said:

Still, you aren't paying attention.

I'll go a little slower, take it a step at a time, and keep this one short and simple. First, go to any dictionary and see that "just" and "fair" mean the same thing, it's undeniable, honestly.

Click to expand...

I quoted the definitions from Websters and they are different and you ignored it and then to make matters worse, you confessed in another post that they were different then went on to declare they were not....see, that is how traditional idols work, you convince yourself of something then refuse to accept anything else. (you meaning people in general)

And once you make that connection, you will understand how you could not have possibly proven God it just but not fair...if he is one, he is the other, this is one thing we can call absolute fact.

Click to expand...

as I previously stated, you are encouraged to show any passage that says God is "fair" or "moral" all I can find are one's that say He is just. Now, to once again clarify...everything that is just is moral and fair, but not everything that is moral and fair is just. that is why it is important to understand the difference and how that relates to God. Not sure why that is a difficult concept for you or why you are so obsessed with it to keep bring it up, but such is life.

If that doesn't do it, just let me know, and I'll try something else, I'm in no hurry.

Click to expand...

feel free, but you will have to do better than this to show me wrong....

Jason0047 said:

Also, Revelation 21:4 says the former things will pass away. There will be no more sorrow, pain, and death. In Revelation 21:5, Jesus essentially says, "He will make all things new." So what former things will pass away? Sorrow, pain, and death will pass away. For Jesus will make all things new. If hell still remains, then Jesus is not making all things new.

Click to expand...

as some of you all are reading this, we would have to include eternal life as passing away....how does that fit the totality of scripture? Eternal life was given to us before the new heaven and new earth and according to your interpretation, it is passed away to make way for the new....just saying, that doesn't seem to be a logical interpretation to me.

In 1 Corinthians 15:26, Paul essentially says that, "the last enemy to be destroyed will be death."
So if there will be no more death, and the last enemy to be destroyed is death then it is logical to conclude that there are previous enemies of God that would have been destroyed, too. Naturally, the devil, his demonic minions, and all of wicked mankind are enemies of God ---- So they will be destroyed, as well. So there is no eternity for the lost because they are enemies of God who will be destroyed just as death will be destroyed.


...

Click to expand...

as would eternal life....see, this just doesn't make logical sense.

Butch5 said:

I wish I had a nickle for every time I've addressed this passage. There aren't three parts to man, there are two. Gen 2:7 shows us this. The body and spirit combine to form the soul. In this passage Paul denotes the whole man. The body and the spirit (spirit of life from God) combine to for the soul. Soul is also used abstractly in the Scriptures for life.

O LORD, do not rebuke me in Your anger, Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure.
2 Have mercy on me, O LORD, for I am weak; O LORD, heal me, for my bones are troubled.
3 My soul also is greatly troubled; But You, O LORD-- how long?
4 Return, O LORD, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Ps. 6:1-5 NKJ)

Here David speaks of his soul being troubled. Notice his word, "heal me", "my bones are troubled", "my soul is troubled". I think it's pretty clear that he is speaking of his physical being.

Click to expand...

as I said, to not reconcile the two passages is to say that God is a liar which I personally am not willing to do. I see nothing in Gen that contradicts I Thess. until or unless you can show how to reconcile the two passages without destroying what the totality of scripture says, you simply will not convince me because I am a firm believer that scripture is the word of God given to man and as such, cannot lie. End of story

You see, playing dueling scriptures is NOT addressing the issue, it is a method of avoidance which is pretty common in this discussion. I do not believe in playing dueling scripture because I believe that ALL SCRIPTURE IS GOD BREATHED...not just the passages we want to hold to. Now, in light of that, if you want to address the passages please do, otherwise, you have failed to do as you claim.

Butch5 said:

I wish I had a nickle for every time I've addressed this passage. There aren't three parts to man, there are two. Gen 2:7 shows us this. The body and spirit combine to form the soul. In this passage Paul denotes the whole man. The body and the spirit (spirit of life from God) combine to for the soul. Soul is also used abstractly in the Scriptures for life.

O LORD, do not rebuke me in Your anger, Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure.
2 Have mercy on me, O LORD, for I am weak; O LORD, heal me, for my bones are troubled.
3 My soul also is greatly troubled; But You, O LORD-- how long?
4 Return, O LORD, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Ps. 6:1-5 NKJ)

Here David speaks of his soul being troubled. Notice his word, "heal me", "my bones are troubled", "my soul is troubled". I think it's pretty clear that he is speaking of his physical being.

Click to expand...

as your trying to figure out a way to reconcile the passages, let me remind you of this passage....Heb. 4:12 where we are told that the soul and spirit are not one and the same thing.

aiki said:

Hell in the Bible has had several meanings: Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus. I would include the Lake of Fire under the term Hell, too. It is the final, eternal Hell in which the unrepentant wicked and the devil and his demons are tormented for ever and ever. I might not be entirely precise in calling the Lake of Fire, Hell, but I think the average believer thinks of Hell as the Lake of Fire. If it helps, I can use "Lake of Fire" instead of Hell.

Hell is punishment. But punishment that is not consciously experienced is not punishment. One cannot punish a rock or a tree. Annihilation entails the extinguishing of consciousness so annihilation cannot be in view in those places where the Bible speaks of eternal punishment. Consider the following quotation:

Click to expand...

the way some here define words, it is possible to punish a tree or rock, but that removes truth...which is sad but how things have been going.

"The punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 cannot be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear in this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness. Bible scholar John Gerstner comments, 'One can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.' " (pg. 331)

"How do we know that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. As Bible scholar Alan Gomes explains it, 'one is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.)' The very fact that people will suffer degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts." (pg. 332)

"Moreover, one cannot deny that for a person who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing, not a punishment. As theologian William Shedd notes, 'The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse.' Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define eternal punishment as an extinction of consciousness.

Torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Alan Gomes comments, 'A punishment that is not felt is not punishment..."

Note also in Matthew 25:46 that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihiliationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective "aionion" in this verse means "everlasting, without end." ...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God. Moreover, as Professor Gomes notes,

'What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the
duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with
the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios"
is used to describe both the length of punishment for the
wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One
cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked with-
out at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for
the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it
an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a
limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked.'"

- Ron Rhodes, "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses."

Selah.

Click to expand...

My Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ our Merciful Saviour are not going to like my input nevertheless I am going to say it in terms of my relationship with Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary.

The "Fire" is "Hot Spiritual Fire" that is hotter than any fire here on earth. Jesus describes this to so many of His Saints and Christians with many of them having witnessed seeing The Holy Souls in Purgatory. Jesus states that the heat is unbearable and it is not until Jesus visits and pours His Precious Holy Blood to cool down their scorching Flames that a Soul receives any relief. Our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary visits the Holy Souls in Purgatory and brings them Her Loving Holy Refreshments of which I include in The Holy Rosary daily.

My relatives and others of whom are in Purgatory suffering dreadfully a hundred times worse than any suffering here on earth, Jesus describes and Mother Mary describes hence i offer up for them as much as possible daily and weekly through Jesus, The Holy Spirit and Mother Mary. If only i had known in my younger days - how many souls on their way to eternal damnation could have been saved by not only my little offerings but all peoples sufferings offered up to Jesus with our hearts and souls immersed in Jesus' Blessed Holy Wounds while praying for Their Souls.

This Spiritual Fire purifies the Holy Souls in Purgatory with Jesus' Precious Holy Blood at times cooling their Flames. God our Creator looks upon them and it is only through the Prayers of our Blessed Virgin Mother, Her Angels, Saints, Martrys, Holy Souls in Heaven, but most of all people here on earth, with sacrifices, Prayers and Holy Masses offered up, they can be greatly assisted to be purified more quickly and released from Purgatory.

A million Souls are released, Jesus said, for every one of The Prayers prayed to our Eternal Father God Himself and Jesus said to Saint Marie Chambon, Saint Faustina and other Saints/Nuns that He Loves any Prayer or Sacrifice offered up for the Holy Souls in Purgatory as often as we can put this on our tongues Jesus said.

This Prayer God gave to mankind with Jesus to Saint Gertrude.
"Eternal Father, I offer Thee The Most Precious Blood of Thy Divine Son Jesus in union with the Masses said throughout the world today, for all the Holy Souls in Purgatory, for sinners everywhere, for sinners in the Universal Church, for those in my own home and within my own family, Amen.

To avoid God our Heavenly Father's Wrath - say you are facing a life/death situation:
"Eternal Father, I offer You The Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your Dearly Beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world" x 3 times while focussing on Jesus and His Bitter Passion.

For the Conversion of Mankind, Jesus says He listens and answers His Following Prayer:
"O Blood and Water which gushed forth from The Heart of Jesus as a Fount of Mercy for us, I trust in You" x 3 times

For Jesus' Mercy in between Penances and while immersing your Hearts and Souls in Jesus Precious Holy Blood for His Loving Holy assistance:
For Healing of heart soul mind and body trusting in Jesus:
"My Jesus, Pardon and Mercy through The Merits of Thy Holy Wounds" x 10 times. Thank Jesus don't forget afterwards.

When satan tempts to divide your Trust in Jesus:
"Jesus, I Trust in You" x 10 times
When satan is attacking relentlessly as you are receiving Jesus into your heart and doing God's Holy Works:
"I Consecrate my Heart and Soul to Thy Sacred Heart Jesus making His Sign of The Cross and Consecrate your Hearts to Mother Mary's Holy Immaculate Heart" praying 3 Our Father's, 3 Hail Mary's and 3 Glory Be's

The Lord is My Shepherd daily and Jesus' Holy Wound Chaplet given by Jesus to Saint Sister Marie Marthe Chambon for Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit with Mother Mary's Protection.

God and Mother Mary's Most Holy Rosary followed The Psalter of God's and during Fire, Hail, Rain, Sleet, Snow and out in Lightning, facing crises, i commence God and Mother Mary's Holy Rosary - with every Holy Rosary heard and answered since 2011 daily on everything while focussing on every one of God's Holy Mysteries all contained within His Holy Word.

God delivered The Holy Rosary with Jesus to Saint Dominic, to Blessed De La Roche, Saint Lois De Montfort and millions of others with God declaring "It is mans greatest weapon against satan" - God Himself has heard and answered every Holy Rosary i have prayed with Jesus, The Holy Spirit and Mother Mary daily. If only people would sanctify themselves by this Means - people will be more greatly protected from satan and his attacks and more greatly saved eternally.

Jesus explained to His Saints so many of them describing the unbearable heat suffered by many of the Holy Souls for years until prayers were offered up for them, until Masses were offered up for them, until people prayed and did kind acts in memory of their loved ones, to free them from Purgatory including His Religious. Other Saints have explained after seeing Purgatory and their stories are similar and the same, that the Holy Souls once exiting Purgatory and in Heaven, they pray for our souls when we are passing over and we receive their Holy intercession through Jesus and Mother Mary when in Judgement by Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit (for people of whom have turned to Jesus during their lives).

Fear God and His Wrath.
Turn to Jesus to receive His Mercy now and eternally to avoid God's wrath now and eternally. People wonder why devastation and grief occurs without hearts healed and with other atrocities - do what God Commanded within His Holy Word, repent sins to Jesus in remorse, receive God's Blessed Holy Sacraments, all of them, pray and talk to Jesus in complete trust, Jesus is waiting and listening, ask for our Blessed Heavenly Mother Mary's Holy Intercession of which Mother Mary leads trillions of hearts back to "receive" Jesus into their hearts every second of every day, most of all trust and know and talk to Jesus then...wait for Jesus to answer you!

Keep Bearing Fruit for Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit daily!! To avoid God's wrath now and eternally!

God our Heavenly Father dictated His Holy Word and Words about His Cup of wrath. On the other hand, God has His Cup of Orange Holy Liquid given at times to His Prophets, Priests, Saints and Martyrs for His Holy Will to be done and what I am trying to say is that some Christians or people think that God's Holy Word Content is Symbolic only. It is "literal and at times some things are Symbolic".

God is Humble, Jesus is Humble, The Holy Spirit is Humble and Mother Mary is humble and wanting our lives to be simple/literal/understanding His Holy Word as Little Children, His Little Children.

God's Holy Word is "Literal" and often written with a few different meanings, yet many things are Holy Mysteries that go way beyond what we can comprehend here on earth.

For instance, God's Holy Word within His Old Testament when God Himself dictated to Ezra and His other Prophets and Priests - God kept aside 44 Holy Books? for Ezra and His Prophets not to be released to mankind with God saying that only the wise would be able to read those 44 Holy Books/His Holy Word and not the remainder of mankind. These Prophets/Priests including Ezra were given by God Himself His Holy Fiery Orange Liquid with The Holy Spirit in It, to drink while fasting for 7 days prior to writing God's Holy Word dictated by Him/God our Creator - for God's Holy Discernment writing His Holy Word.

Jesus can be manifested in His Holy Will in many different Holy Ways. As The Infant Jesus, as the Holy Lion of The Tribe of Judah, as an older Jesus Christ our Merciful Saviour, as a Younger Jesus Christ our Merciful Saviour, as Jesus with His Holy Sword and Holy Lion's Face coming out of His Mouth, - incomprehensible to our human mind.

Often Jesus shows us with The Holy Spirit 2 or 3 Holy Meanings within His Holy Word reading, then later shows us in person His Holy Meanings. Regardless of God's Holy Ways, one thing is for sure - ,always cover your souls by taking God's Holy Word "Literally" and not just symbolically. Prepare your Souls through Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit and call upon our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary for She will guide your hearts into "receiving" Jesus into your Heart with The Holy Spirit in Communion/Union and speaking to hearts in God's Holy Will.

Heaven, Purgatory and Hell all exist with all of Revelations "Literal" and "Symbolic" and there are so many Prophets, Priests, Saints, Martyrs, Christians and Lay people of whom to date can testify that they have seen Heaven, Purgatory and Hell of which "Literally" directly reflects God's Old Testament and His New Testament.

Some of the most wonderful ways storing up Treasures and Sanctifying our souls through and by Jesus and Mother Mary together are:
. Praying for Jesus Loving Holy Intentions and Mother Mary's Holy Intentions daily
. Praying for Holy Reparation of Jesus' Sacred Heart against all of the blasphemies and hurts of mankind - 7 Our Fathers, 7 Hail Mary's and 7 Glory Be's and For Holy Reparation of Mother Mary's Holy Immaculate Heart.
. Praying for the afflicted souls immersing them in Jesus' Blessed Holy Wounds as greatly as possible daily/weekly. Jesus has been requesting this of me recently as priority within His Holy Wound Chaplet and for the conversion of mankind in recent days within His Divine Mercy Novena to God our Creator and The Holy Spirit.
. Praying for the Wealthy to more continually give to Nations living in poverty of which I myself have to give over forthcoming weeks - am guilty of this not having done for quite some time.
. Praying for all of The Holy Souls in Purgatory and offering up Alms of the Spirit for them
. Praying for all souls on their way to eternal damnation immersing their souls in His Precious Holy Blood for their salvation so they do not continue on to hell eternally. I offer up alms of the spirit for them and offer all of the Indulgences of The Treasury of Jesus' Church for them and offer them on their behalf as is done for The Holy Souls in Purgatory.
. For all people at risk of self harm immersed in Jesus' Precious Holy Blood and in Mother Marys Holy Immaculate Heart asking Mother Mary to cover them with Her Virginal Mantle.
. All people in Prisons
. The Poor in Spirit
. The Government Leaders and Govt Staff members of All Nations consecrating their hearts to Jesus Sacred Heart and to Mother Mary's Holy Immaculate Heart.
. Consecrating Nations to Jesus and Mother Mary
. For all people committing atrocious vile acts - Jesus gave this Prayer to Saint Faustina to include to Him.
. For the expelling of all evil out of the hearts and souls of Isis, ISIL, Jihadist, Boko Haram, Taliban, Al-Quada, Sunni and all people belonging to Islam for their conversions and salvation without judgement with The Holy Spirit in Holy Discernment flowing through them within The Most Holy Rosary and within Jesus/God's Holy Divine Mercy Novena to our Heavenly Father Whom hears and answers every one of "HIS" Divine Mercy Novenas through Jesus Christ our Unfathomable Divine Mercy - our Merciful Saviour for those of whom turn to Jesus during their earthly lifetime.

Every part of God's Holy Word is written by Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit Himself!
.

aiki said:

Hell in the Bible has had several meanings: Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus. I would include the Lake of Fire under the term Hell, too. It is the final, eternal Hell in which the unrepentant wicked and the devil and his demons are tormented for ever and ever. I might not be entirely precise in calling the Lake of Fire, Hell, but I think the average believer thinks of Hell as the Lake of Fire. If it helps, I can use "Lake of Fire" instead of Hell.

Hell is punishment. But punishment that is not consciously experienced is not punishment. One cannot punish a rock or a tree. Annihilation entails the extinguishing of consciousness so annihilation cannot be in view in those places where the Bible speaks of eternal punishment. Consider the following quotation:

"The punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 cannot be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear in this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness. Bible scholar John Gerstner comments, 'One can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.' " (pg. 331)

"How do we know that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. As Bible scholar Alan Gomes explains it, 'one is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.)' The very fact that people will suffer degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts." (pg. 332)

"Moreover, one cannot deny that for a person who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing, not a punishment. As theologian William Shedd notes, 'The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse.' Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define eternal punishment as an extinction of consciousness.

Torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Alan Gomes comments, 'A punishment that is not felt is not punishment..."

Note also in Matthew 25:46 that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihiliationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective "aionion" in this verse means "everlasting, without end." ...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God. Moreover, as Professor Gomes notes,

'What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the
duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with
the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios"
is used to describe both the length of punishment for the
wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One
cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked with-
out at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for
the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it
an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a
limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked.'"

- Ron Rhodes, "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses."

Selah.

Click to expand...

This is really good.

Rodan6 said:

God is the absolute of love and logic. The concept of eternal torment is somewhat satisfying to the human sense of righteousness--that an evil-doer gets "what they deserve". But no good purpose is served by the eternal torment of individuals. A person who persists in false choices fails to create the essential building blocks of a surviving soul and thus their existence is terminated upon human death. Heaven is real, but "Hell" is not. NOTHING OF VALUE IS EVER LOST.

Click to expand...

My friend this argument is based upon our own human understanding of God. We so often assign to God our own ideas of who he is. God is love. What that means to us in a human sense is that hell cannot be torment because that is not loving. But we dismiss the fact that God is just and his judgments are righteous.
Remember His ways are not our ways and his thoughts are not our thoughts. What we project upon God is not necessarily God.

For example, we have NO CLUE as to what it means to God to reject him and the sacrifice that Christ made for us. God intimately knows the depth of the wickedness to,reject the great salvation. We don't get it. But to God the evil and wickedness and horror of rejecting the sacrifice of his son is worthy of torment. To say otherwise it makes light of the great sacrifice of Christ. The same goes for his love for us. We don't fully grasp the depth of his love because we don't grasp the depth of the sacrifice. What does it mean for Jesus to bear the weight of the sin of the entire world upon his shoulders. Do we even have the smallest understanding of that? I don't know how we could. We don't even do a good job of recognising and carrying our own guilt. But Jesus bore it all. The rejection of that is beyond our understanding.

But God understands it perfectly and in his perfect understanding lies his perfect judgements. Righteous and true. We deserve eternal punishment in the fires of hell. Tormented day and night.

Der Alter said:

I notice that you ignored my entire post. Fire consumes things? Not if God decides otherwise.

Exodus 3:1-2
(1) Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
(2) And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Daniel 3:13-14 Then Nebuchadnezzar in his rage and fury commanded to bring Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Then they brought these men before the king.
14 Nebuchadnezzar spake and said unto them, Is it true, O Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, do not ye serve my gods, nor worship the golden image which I have set up?
Daniel 3:19 Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
Daniel 3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.​

Click to expand...

But each of these times whereby the fire does not consume someone in Scripture, it is for the righteous and not the unrighteous. Also, you are ignoring the point I have made within my post, as well. I am essentially asking why do you feel you can ignore how the first death is not related to the second death?


...

Der Alter said:

Which scripture identifies paradise as Abraham's bosom? Paul equates paradise with heaven, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.
Hell/the grave is never called prison and prison is never called hell/the grave in the NT.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

In the OT example given, eight people were saved alive, not from the grave.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, ​

Part of Jesus' earthly ministry was to preach "deliverance to the captives." Note that is right between "heal the brokenhearted" and "recovering of sight to the blind." The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war."

Click to expand...

But Jesus said He would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.
Yet, Jesus also said He would be with the thief on the cross that very day in paradise.
Jesus cannot be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights if He was also in heaven.
Also, when Jesus had risen from the grave, He told Mary that He had yet to ascend to His Father.
So we know He did not go to Heaven when in the grave for three days and three nights.
Jesus was referring to Abraham's Bosom as Paradise. For the Bible does have homonyms within it. Meaning the same word can be used to refer to several different things. Sons of God can refer to both believers and angels. The Bible refers to both Jesus and the devil as lions. The word "repent" has a different meaning for God than it does for humans. For the Scriptures say that God cannot repent. Yet, Genesis 6 tells us God repented. So looking at the context determines the meaning of a word.


...

mmksparbud said:

Prove it isn't--from what I read in scripture it is. You simply saying it isn't --doesn't prove a thing. Hell is instituted on the old earth, it is before the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven. It is right after the 1000 years. It is thrown into the lake of fire along with death.---Then the earth is made new--It is clear. It all passes away.

Click to expand...

Where does scripture say that "hell is instituted on the old earth?"

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Those that will not be there are listed by Jesus--and He says they will be sent to the lake of fire, which is the 2nd death which is described already in Rev 20:14 --there are not 2 2nd deaths, just one and that happens before the New Jerusalem comes down. Can't get any clearer.,

Click to expand...

My scriptural position is there is no "second death" as in anyone or anything dying, ceasing to live, etc. The lake of fire passages, in context.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.
The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

And in each of those--God is there. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that God is going to be right in there in hell along with the wicked.

Click to expand...

Irrelevant! God is not limited as to where He can or cannot act.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
No--I am stating I do not understand why people want this to be real. I do not understand wanting to see people frying in hell forever. It is not a diatribe, the diatribe is yours. I am saddened that people feel this way. I do not want my brother frying forever, nor even those who have hurt me. A friend had her child raped and killed, even she doesn't want him tormented in hell forever---a couple

Click to expand...

100 years she feels would be ok. She is very kind and I doubt she could stand a couple hundred years, esp since she knows, she will have her child forever with her, and that child will never be hurt or cry again.

Click to expand...

People trying to transfer their feelings, sensibilities etc. onto God. You have no way of knowing what people want or think but this appears that you are still accusing people of "wanting to see people frying in hell."
"eternal punishment,""cast into hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched""cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." People did not invent these words, they are the words of Jesus.
Jesus also mentioned a fate worse than death in two passages,
"better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little one" Matthew 18:6, Mark 9:42, Luke 17:2, and
"woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born." Matthew 26:24

aiki said:

Or if anything is actually being destroyed in the sense of it being annihilated which in most instances it is not (see my last post).

Here are a few things to consider: Is our physical body upon its death annihilated? No. Even if it is cremated, it can't be said to have been annihilated, to be removed from existence entirely and utterly. We see, then, that the "destruction" of death does not necessitate or imply annihilation.

Click to expand...

I am proposing Isaiah 66:24 that says,


In other words, the saints will look upon the lifeless carcases or husks of the wicked. This is the aftermath of the wicked's destruction. How all things pass away after that is according to Revelation 21:4-5. For I trust that there will be no need to keep evil things around for the righteous to see again. Why? Because He makes all things new and the former things have passed away. It is a new life with Jesus for all eternity whereby sin, death, and evil will have no place anymore. You may like to think these things will be hanging around; But it will not be consistent with Scripture or God's goodness. For in the Scriptures, God destroys His enemies. He doesn't keep them hanging around.

aiki said:

Why, if death means annihilation, do we read of the "second death" in Scripture? How can something that is destroyed utterly in death suffer a second such destruction? It seems pretty clear that "death" is not meant in Scripture to be understood as "removed from existence," or "annihilated."

Why do you assume that the second death is just like the first death? The circumstances surrounding the second death are significantly different from those accompanying the first. Why wouldn't this have an important bearing on the nature of the second death?

Click to expand...

Because the Lord our God is a God of order and logic. Why call something the second death if it is not related to the first death? If it was an entirely different kind of death, then it would have an entirely different and new name.

It's why you can never explain how God torturing the wicked for all eternity is fair and just. It is not logical. It is not good or loving. But you must throw in the "God is mysterious" card in order to make your belief on ECT (Eternal Concious Torment) work. But in my book (especially the good book), that just doesn't work at all, my friend. For the Lord our God and His good ways and judgments can be known.

Psalms 119:75
"I know, O LORD, that thy judgments are right, and that thou in faithfulness hast afflicted me."

aiki said:

So, how do you reconcile the declaration of Christ about giving us "abundant life" with the inevitable prospect of death? How does abundant life include death? How can Christ say those who obey his commands will never die when every believer since the time he uttered those words has died? Could it be that the death Jesus is speaking of is different from what you understand it to be?

Selah.

Click to expand...

Not at all. Jesus alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). Does not God the Father have immortality, too? Not in the same way that Jesus has it. Jesus still has a physical body and He will always have a physical body for all eternity (to make intercession for us). Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection. We will be resurrected and given life after the likeness of His resurrection. This would not make sense if the wicked also will be resurrected and living for all eternity, too. Yes, there will be a resurrection of the damned, but they will not be living for all eternity. Remember, only Christ alone has immortality; And Christ only intercedes for the saints and not for the wicked so as to keep them alive. Only those in Christ's likeness will be living for all time like He is.


...

Jason0047 said:

But each of these times whereby the fire does not consume someone in Scripture, it is for the righteous and not the unrighteous. Also, you are ignoring the point I have made within my post, as well. I am essentially asking why do you feel you can ignore how the first death is not related to the second death?

Click to expand...

Irrelevant, if God wants fire to burn without destroying He can do so.
.....See my post #492 above. The terms "lake of fire" and "second death" are interchangeable. "The lake of fire" is "the second death" and "the second death" is "the lake of fire." Scripture never says that anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they die.

Der Alter said:

Irrelevant, if God wants fire to burn without destroying He can do so.
.....See my post #492 above. The terms "lake of fire" and "second death" are interchangeable. "The lake of fire" is "the second death" and "the second death" is "the lake of fire." Scripture never says that anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they die.

Click to expand...

It's not irrelevant because God is consistent in how He shares certain things within His Word; Otherwise, one is simply adding to God's Word (if they venture outside of what it actually says). For there is no case where the wicked are protected or not burned by any flames in the Bible. Only the righteous are protected within fire.

...

Jason0047 said:

But Jesus said He would be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.
Yet, Jesus also said He would be with the thief on the cross that very day in paradise.
Jesus cannot be in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights if He was also in heaven.
Also, when Jesus had risen from the grave, He told Mary that He had yet to ascend to His Father.
So we know He did not go to Heaven when in the grave for three days and three nights.
Jesus was referring to Abraham's Bosom as Paradise. For the Bible does have homonyms within it. Meaning the same word can be used to refer to several different things. Sons of God can refer to both believers and angels. The Bible refers to both Jesus and the devil as lions. The word "repent" has a different meaning for God than it does for humans. For the Scriptures say that God cannot repent. Yet, Genesis 6 tells us God repented. So looking at the context determines the meaning of a word.
...

Click to expand...

Either your conclusions are wrong or Paul was wrong when the equated paradise with heaven. And Jesus was wrong when He said that the tree of life was in Paradise.
I have an answer but you probably will not like it.

Jason0047 said:

It's not irrelevant because God is consistent in how He shares certain things within His Word; Otherwise, one is simply adding to God's Word (if they venture outside of what it actually says). For there is no case where the wicked are protected or not burned by any flames in the Bible. Only the righteous are protected within fire.
...

Click to expand...

You are stating a premise. Please show me scripture where God is self limited by anything He has or has not done before? I have not ventured outside of anything and I have added nothing to God's word.

Der Alter said:

Either your conclusions are wrong or Paul was wrong when the equated paradise with heaven. And Jesus was wrong when He said that the tree of life was in Paradise.

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
(2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
(3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
(4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.​

I have an answer but you probably will not like it.

Click to expand...

As I said the Bible has homonyms within it. I have given you a few examples that this is the case.
Also, you have not addressed the contradiction in your belief according to what the Scriptures say.
Jesus was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.
Jesus told Mary he had yet to ascend to the Father.
So Jesus could not have been in Heaven during the time He was in the grave for three days and three nights.
So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus was in Abraham's bosom and the word "paradise" is a homonym (just like all the other homonyms used in Scripture).


...

Der Alter said:

You are stating a premise. Please show me scripture where God is self limited by anything He has or has not done before? I have not ventured outside of anything and I have added nothing to God's word.

Click to expand...

While God can do things, these new things would of course be revealed within His Word.
Even the new things Christ did within His ministry was foretold within OT Scripture.
But now the Scriptures is a closed book. There is no new Scriptures we are seeking or new prophecies or messages to look for to add to God's Word (After the book or scroll known as "Revelation"). The Bible is our message or Word from God. It's all we need. It is sufficient for the Christian life. Venturing outside of His Word to build our faith is dangerous and it is not consistent with His Word.


...

double posted