The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Jason0047 said:

No doubt you believe the following verse is an inference of conciousness after death.

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"

While this passage is not 100% point blank in hitting a person over the head that people will be conscious after death, it does strongly imply that very thing. For the Lord abides in the body of believers. So when the body dies or is shed, they will be present with the Lord. This suggests more than just some kind of soul sleep because it is contrasted with shedding one's body and being present with someone; Which usually involves our participation on our part in being conciously aware. This is what Stephen was seeing close to his death. Jesus. The Lord. He was getting a glimpse of what was to come. To be present with the Lord.


...

Click to expand...

You admit that the passage doesn't state it outright. That means you're inferring it. So, we can't say the Bible is teaching that the dead are somehow alive from this passage. This passage is one that is often misunderstood. Firstly, it's poorly translated. Remember, translators translate based on how they understand the passage. So, if the translator believes that when he dies he will instantly be with Jesus then he would believe that this passage is translated properly. However, what if he is wrong? Then it's possible that he translated it poorly or incorrectly.

The first thing to point out is that Paul is stating his desire, not a theological reality. He said he willing to absent from the body and present with the Lord. That doesn't mean that's what happens. Secondly there is not time element given in this passage. People just assume that being present with the Lord immediately follows being absent from the Body. Paul doesn't indicate that it is immediate. We know from Paul' writings that his earnest hope was the Resurrection. At the Resurrection Paul would be present with the Lord. So, what we need to know is what Paul's understanding of this time interval was. Did Paul believe that he would be with the Lord immediately upon death or at the Resurrection? Well, we can get his insight on this subject from his words to the Corinthians.

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

Here Paul says if the dead don't rise those who died in Christ have perished. He doesn't say that they are with the Lord, he says if the dead don't rise they have perished. He's talking about believers here. We know form his words here that Paul didn't believe that believers were in some other state of being with the Lord. He says if the dead don't rise those who had died in Christ had perished. So, looking at his words in 2 Cor 5:8 he obviously doesn't expect to be with the Lord immediately, but rather at the Resurrection.

Also, the words absent and present are poorly translated. The Greek words actually mean to be among or away from one's own people.

Absent
1553 ἐκδημέω ekdemeo {ek-day-meh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to go abroad 2) emigrate, depart 3) to be or live abroad

Present
1736 ἐνδημέω endemeo {en-day-meh'-o}
Meaning: 1) to be among one's own people, dwell in one's own country, stay at home

So, how does this fit the passage? Who are the Christian's "own people"? His fellow Christians or the "Body" of Christ. So, Paul's desire is to be absent (away from one's own people) from the Body (of believers [his own people]) and to be present (with his own people)with the Lord, which takes place at the Resurrection. He's talking about two states of being, the current one and the Resurrection. His desire is the Resurrection.

Also, the idea that Paul is talking about being with the Lord immediately as a disembodied consciousness contradicts what he is actually saying. In this same passage he stated that He didn't want to be found naked.

14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
(2 Cor. 4:14-5:7 KJV)

Notice that the whole passage is about the Resurrection. Note that Paul doesn't want to be found naked, but rather clothed upon. The Greek word translated "clothed upon" means to put on over as one would put on a coat over their clothing. Paul is not looking to lose his body, be naked, but rather is looking to put on his heavenly body over the earthly one. In other words, he is looking for his mortality to on immortality. That happens at the Resurrection. That's why his desire is to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

If you'd like to listen to an audio further explaining this passage here is a link. Scroll down to number 14 "Absent from the Body."

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Hell.html

Jason0047 said:

But this concept is flawed because the Scriptures say,

"... thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27).​

For even God has a soul. Granted, God's soul is eternal and uncreated. But the Bible says He has a soul none the less.

• Leviticus 26:11
  And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
• Leviticus 26:30
  And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
• Isaiah 42:1
  Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
• Zechariah 11:8
  Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
• Matthew 12:18
  Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
• Hebrews 10:38
  Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him

Also, Scripture says there is spiritual body in relation to man's spirit.
It also says, that a person's spirit has a mind.
And also says a person's spirit can express emotions.
The spirit then returns to God (with all these characteristics still intact).
Their return is not in the sense of God destroying man's spirit but it so that they will be judged.


...

Click to expand...

The concept isn't flawed, it's straight out of the Scriptures. Gen 2:7 states plainly that a living soul consists of a body and the God's spirit of life. That's soul as it pertains to a man. Soul is also used abstractly in the Scriptures and is often translated, life. God is a living being an as such soul can be used abstractly of God's life. It also used abstractly of man's life. The point is that where man is concerned soul always requires a body because that's what a man is.

As I said, any interpretation has to accord with Gen 2:7. The key is to find a definition that will accommodate all of the passages in which the word occurs.

mark kennedy said:

The antitrust and false prophet are men possesed by demons, the antichrist is possesed by Satan himself half way through the Tribulation.

Click to expand...

John himself tells us where the beast comes from “the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit” (Revelation 11:7) This “beast” is not a human being. Humans do not come out of this pit. The apostle John wants us to know this beast is a demon by telling us his origins.

…Likewise, the false prophet is referred to as “another beast” (Revelation 13:11-17, Revelation 16:13 and Revelation 19:20). The Greek for “another” here is allos (al’-los), which means “another of the same kind.” Therefore, the false prophet is an evil spirit that originated from the Abyss as well.

Source:
http://www.hellhadesafterlife.com/revelation-20-10

Mark Kennedy said:

I don't know what to tell you about soul sleep but there are two New Testament words for death, thanatos and necros. When the saints die its thanks, everyone else it's necros. Thanatos is often translated sleep, when Paul in 1Cor 11 says some of you are sick and some of sleep he means believers are being judged for the mistreatment of the poor. They were not unconscious, they had died.

Click to expand...

But Jesus was laughed at when he referred to how the little girl was asleep when she was dead.
In addition, Jesus said Lazarus was asleep and yet he was dead.

In other words, Jesus is saying that there is a death of no return (i.e. the Second Death). Jesus sees the intermediate state of death as sleeping. So thus, even Paul uses such words, as well. Sometimes words can be more than what they are saying on the surface (even by looking at the Greek).

Mark Kennedy said:

Generally when I encounter this doctrine of soul sleep its due to confusion about thanatos and the Old Testament concept of Sheol. You appear to have developed Your ideas directly fron an exposition. All very interesting but as a biblical doctrine I still can't get soul sleep from the proof texts.

Click to expand...

And you can't build a doctrine by looking at Lexicons, either. It doesn't work that way. Homonyms exist in the Bible and looking at the context helps us to determine what a word is saying and not a Lexicon that was formulated by men long after the Scriptures came into being. Lexicons are merely one tool-set in understanding God's Word. They are not a code key to unlocking the secrets of the Bible. Context, cross references, and constant prayer all play their part, too.


...

Butch5 said:

The concept isn't flawed, it's straight out of the Scriptures. Gen 2:7 states plainly that a living soul consists of a body and the God's spirit of life. That's soul as it pertains to a man. Soul is also used abstractly in the Scriptures and is often translated, life. God is a living being an as such soul can be used abstractly of God's life. It also used abstractly of man's life. The point is that where man is concerned soul always requires a body because that's what a man is.

As I said, any interpretation has to accord with Gen 2:7. The key is to find a definition that will accommodate all of the passages in which the word occurs.

Click to expand...

You are misinterpreting what that verse is saying. For what you do with the Scriptures that say how God has a soul?


...

Butch5 said:

You admit that the passage doesn't state it outright. That means you're inferring it.

Click to expand...

Yes, there are many things Christians infer from the Bible.
Sola Scriptura is inferred from a set of passages in the Bible, but there is no one verse or set of verses or passages that says Scripture and Scripture alone is our authority. Oh, and yes. I have made a Biblical defense for Sola Scriptura here. But again, many of these verses are inferred. It doesn't mean Sola Scriptura is not true because a collection of verses infer such a truth.

Butch5 said:

So, we can't say the Bible is teaching that the dead are somehow alive from this passage.

Click to expand...

Yes, we can. But this verse is not alone, though. It is a collection of verses and passages (of which I mentioned that state that man will be conscious after he dies). The verses are clear to understand. What is your real motivation in not wanting to believe these verses? I know my motivation in wanting to defend those verses on the Conditional View of the Lake of Fire is to defend God's goodness or justice. I just do not see that as being necessary with trying to push "soul sleep", though. There is nothing unjust about hell. It is not a torture chamber of flames. It is more like a really bad prison.

Butch5 said:

This passage is one that is often misunderstood. Firstly, it's poorly translated.

Click to expand...

Please do not say God's Word is poorly translated. I believe God's Word is perfect and it was preserved today based on what Scripture says. Thank you.

Butch5 said:

Remember, translators translate based on how they understand the passage.

Click to expand...

Why would God inspire men to write His Word, just to have it later garbled and confused by men later on?
It doesn't make sense if you ask me.
That would mean we cannot trust God's Word.
How do you know which words are true or not?
Do you have a "Bible Word is True Detector"?

Butch5 said:

So, if the translator believes that when he dies he will instantly be with Jesus then he would believe that this passage is translated properly. However, what if he is wrong? Then it's possible that he translated it poorly or incorrectly.

Click to expand...

Yea, hath God said?
A person will know which Word of God is true, based on the fruit of that text.

Butch5 said:

The first thing to point out is that Paul is stating his desire, not a theological reality. He said he willing to absent from the body and present with the Lord. That doesn't mean that's what happens.

Click to expand...

If I said I will be absent at school, and present with my good friend instead (most people will not think I am talking about being absent from school to be sleeping at my friends house all week while he is playing video games). Being present with someone means you are sharing your time with them. For if I did sleep at my friends house all week while he wanted me to hang with him while we do fun things, then he could very well say that I was not even present with him (Because I was asleep - paying him no heed or thought to him).

Butch5 said:

Secondly there is not time element given in this passage. People just assume that being present with the Lord immediately follows being absent from the Body. Paul doesn't indicate that it is immediate. We know from Paul' writings that his earnest hope was the Resurrection. At the Resurrection Paul would be present with the Lord. So, what we need to know is what Paul's understanding of this time interval was. Did Paul believe that he would be with the Lord immediately upon death or at the Resurrection? Well, we can get his insight on this subject from his words to the Corinthians.

Click to expand...

Paul gives us no indication of a time gap in Corinthians. He says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Butch5 said:

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:13-18 KJV)

Click to expand...

No mention of any time gap of soul sleep here. Paul says to be absent from the body means to be present with the Lord.

Butch5 said:

Here Paul says if the dead don't rise those who died in Christ have perished. He doesn't say that they are with the Lord, he says if the dead don't rise they have perished. He's talking about believers here.

Click to expand...

No. Paul is saying that if Jesus did not die on the cross and rise from the dead, then there is no promise to save us. God knowing He can resurrect us at a future date (based on his death and resurrection) is a down payment of giving us life even after the body dies. However, today, when true believers die, they go to Abraham's Bosom. After that, when the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, believers who die will then go directly to Heaven.

Butch5 said:

We know form his words here that Paul didn't believe that believers were in some other state of being with the Lord. He says if the dead don't rise those who had died in Christ had perished. So, looking at his words in 2 Cor 5:8 he obviously doesn't expect to be with the Lord immediately, but rather at the Resurrection.

Click to expand...

No. Paul is talking about a what if scenario. That what if scenario would be, if Christ was not raised, then there would be no promise of salvation for us (either in the intermediate state or after the Judgment). The what if scenario of Christ not being risen is everyone perishing or being destroyed in the Lake of Fire.


....

Jason0047 said:

Yes, Jesus said, I come to give you life and that you may have it more abundantly. I have come to give you eternal life. These sayings would not make any sense if man just was going to have life more abundantly or eternal life on his own (with his soul being immortal already). The gift of eternal life or immortality is tied to the gospel or the life that is in Christ.


...

Click to expand...

I'm just saying as bad as sin, death and Hell are, the Gospel message is taught alongside them. Not a generally well known fact but Johnathan Edwards preached a sermon called sinners in the the hands of an angry God. He describes them as crossing a canyon on a rickety wooden bridge above molten lava and fire. It was the height of summer, no air condition and several of the women swooned. It sparked a revival called the Great Awakening that would inspire Weslyanism, the Bloodless Revolution and sandwich in between the great awakening 1 and 2, the American Revolution.

The fire and brimestone preachers are preachers of grace. The doctrine of Hell is an impetus for repentance and ministry.

So a couple of things I would like to bring up:

In your argument you presume to know what punishment God intends to use on the unsaved. But the answer isn't an easy one.
No matter what side of the argument someone stands on they cannot deny verses like

Matthew 10:15 "Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town."

or

Matthew 26:24

"The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

Just from these two verses we see there are varying degrees of punishment.

Is the punishment varied by heat of the flame? Or the depth of Darkness? Or perhaps... just perhaps a difference in duration.
What I do know is that Hell will be rightly administered by God.

The main argument of hell is in the text not in any philosophical or logical measurements. We can't comprehend the depths of our sin and the appropriate level of punishment. What we can do, however, is look at the text of the Bible.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So here we have Death in contrast to eternal life. One would have to make an argument why Death does not mean death and that also Eternal life doesnt simply mean eternal life.... but a good eternal life. Because if there was eternal concious torment, there would still be a person "concious" or alive to receive the punishment.

And that is what has me worried about the "traditional" view on hell. You have many passages that emphasize death as punishment. And one could argue that conditionalists or "annihilationists" Have to do the same thing.

The conditionalist perspective will say that for instance Revelation 20:10 "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
" that the forever and ever doesn't by necessity mean forever as the greek words Aionas ton Aionas which can be translated ages of the ages which might be a very long long time but not by necessity forever.

But this verse does not specifically mention humans.... it mentions the beast, false prophet and the devil.

When looking at the text issues of both sides, I find the anihilationist Biblical text arguments for there not being endless concious torment more compelling. I don't think its reasonable to argument based on feelings or that you don't think its right either view of hell because its not in Gods nature.. I will say again whatever hell is... it will be a perfect punishment by a perfect God.

Achilles6129 said:

Let me quote another passage then:

"8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." 1 Jn. 3:8-10 (NASB)

Click to expand...

Again, this passage does not communicate a familial relationship between the devil and his "children" but merely a similarity in their conduct. The passage itself makes this clear in its focus on works and practices. While God has adopted us as joint-heirs with Christ, the devil has no such arrangement with his "children." God disciplines and cares for His children, working all things together for their ultimate good. The devil has no such concern and makes no such effort toward his "children." It is a mistake, then, I think, to draw the direct parallel you have between children of God and "children" of the devil. The term "children" does not maintain a uniform meaning in both instances.

Achilles6129 said:

Actually, it is. If you would look at the verses I cited in my OP you would see that:

"20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. " Jn. 3:20 (NASB)

"15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 Jn. 3:15 (NASB)

Now read Jn. 3:20 again:

"20 For everyone who does evil hates (is a murderer of) the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." Jn. 3:20 (NASB)

Click to expand...

1 John 3:15 is speaking of an attitude of the heart, not the actual act of murder. In God's eyes, one who hates his brother has adopted the mindset or attitude of a murderer and in this way he is comparable to a murderer, but he is not a murderer in the way someone who has actually killed someone is. This seems pretty obvious to me...

Was Christ murdered? No, he makes it very clear that he is laying down his life willingly and that no man can take his life from him in the way one human might do to another when they commit murder.

John 10:17-18
17 Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Selah.

mmksparbud said:

That is the problem!! You must cling to the immortal soul for you to be able to take the stand you do! It is the crux of the issue and you refuse to admit that! Every passage of scripture that implies eternal hell has been gone over, and over and none of you will admit to the different meaning because you must still cling to the immortality of the soul. You can not see that God can destroy the sinner completely--your aunt lost a finger -ok-how does that prove hell goes on forever?? It was the result of her actions, how does thst prove hell is forever? I already said, many times, there is a hell, it is due to consequencoes of our own decisions, it is just, --it just is not eternal!!

Click to expand...

You hold this view in company with Jehovah's Witness cultists. The argument you propose about the soul has been made and refuted many times on this site by me and others. Check through the archives. I would also recommend you read the book "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ron Rhodes. In it he pretty thoroughly defeats the idea of soul-sleep, annihilationism, the denial of the immortality of the soul, etc.

Selah.

Jason0047 said:

John himself tells us where the beast comes from “the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit” (Revelation 11:7) This “beast” is not a human being. Humans do not come out of this pit. The apostle John wants us to know this beast is a demon by telling us his origins.

Click to expand...

Then in the next verse it says the city the row witnesses are in is Sodom and where our Lord was crucified. Prophetic imagery does this the meanings overlap. The beast is described as having seven heads, then is an eighth which is headed by the antichrist. Another time there are ten horns, the little horn uproots three. The historical and future, human and demonic run concurrent in the Revelation. The reference your using here is a reference to the demonically empowered kingdom.

…Likewise, the false prophet is referred to as “another beast” (Revelation 13:11-17, Revelation 16:13 and Revelation 19:20). The Greek for “another” here is allos (al’-los), which means “another of the same kind.” Therefore, the false prophet is an evil spirit that originated from the Abyss as well.

Click to expand...

The Abyss is a holding place for demons who will be released during the pouring of the vials of wrath. Apparently the kingdom of the Beast was demonically inspired, the original architects now held in the Abyss. The false prophet, the lamb that speaks like a Dragon, is the false Messiah. Contrast him with the Lamb that always slain from the foundation of the world.

But Jesus was laughed at when he referred to how the little girl was asleep when she was dead.
In addition, Jesus said Lazarus was asleep and yet he was dead.

Click to expand...

With the girl her spirit was still in her body, a guy fell asleep while Paul was preaching and fell out a window. The first thing Paul says is he is still in there. I pointed out that thanatos can be translated sleep, it's just a milder word then necros. The expression indicates the body resembling sleep when it dies. Thanatos is used exclusively of the death of believers which we know are conscious in the next life as the await the resurrection.

In other words, Jesus is saying that there is a death of no return (i.e. the Second Death). Jesus sees the intermediate state of death as sleeping. So thus, even Paul uses such words, as well. Sometimes words can be more than what they are saying on the surface (even by looking at the Greek).



And you can't build a doctrine by looking at Lexicons, either. It doesn't work that way. Homonyms exist in the Bible and looking at the context helps us to determine what a word is saying and not a Lexicon that was formulated by men long after the Scriptures came into being. Lexicons are merely one tool-set in understanding God's Word. They are not a code key to unlocking the secrets of the Bible. Context, cross references, and constant prayer all play their part, too.


...

Click to expand...

Sleep is just a way of expressing death, it does not imply or indicate an unconscious state of the spirit or mind although it could certainly include it in the case where it's some kind of coma rather the separation.

Jason0047 said:

You are misinterpreting what that verse is saying. For what you do with the Scriptures that say how God has a soul?


...

Click to expand...

What God has, has nothing to do with what we have. We are not God, we are only created in the image of God. Are you suggesting that God breathed His soul into Adam and Eve? Is the soul then transferable? Can I transfer my soul into you? What then becomes of my soul if I do? What became of God if He breathed His soul into Adam and Eve?? Did He breathe His soul into every angel and whatever other being He created, whatever other animals besides the ones we have on this earth? How many souls does God have? So far, it only says one. It doesn't say He has countless souls in His being. The breathe of life that He gave to Adam and Eve He gave to every living thing on this earth. Are they therefore immortal souls also? He breathed that life into the first bug ever created, is it alive in heaven also?? Is every living thing that God created then still alive in heaven or hell? Do animals go to hell? If not, all of them are in heaven, every fly, mosquito, everything that has the breath of life in it for all of life came from God and when they die that breath goes back to God. It says it goes back to God. Doesn't say it goes to heaven or hell, but to God. It is His power of life and it goes back to Him, and whoever had it, is nothing but dust, and will remain so unless He gives that breath back to them. If we are disembodied spirits conscious in heaven, then so are the animals--they too need to be resurrected and join their spirit to their body??

1Sa 25:29 Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling.
Job_27:8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?


The first death is a sleep that God will awaken us from, the 2nd death--there is no waking up from that--it is permanent unconsciousness. The little girl and Lazarus had not gone to heaven---why bring them back? There they are, gloriously happy in heaven, and they get hauled back to earth---what for, to make the people around them happy? They would have been horrified to have to come back to this miserable world after being in the presence of God and His angels and all the beauty of heaven--I'd be ticked off. Not to mention, neither said one single solitary word about having been in heaven. There were many who were resurrected when Christ died
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

They came out of their graves---doesn't say their souls were sent from heaven. God resurrected them. So they too, were hauled out of heaven and sent back here? They had been sleeping it says. Doesn't say they were in heaven. How long had they been sleeping? Supposedly we go immediately to heaven. Lazarus had been sleeping for 4 days.

Butch5 said:

Ok, please just remember we are looking for something that "teaches" that the dead are conscious. This is different than verses from which the idea is inferred.

Click to expand...

In addition to Luke 19:19-31, the story of Lazarus and the rich man, in Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
.....Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

mmksparbud said:

What God has, has nothing to do with what we have. We are not God, we are only created in the image of God. Are you suggesting that God breathed His soul into Adam and Eve? Is the soul then transferable? Can I transfer my soul into you? What then becomes of my soul if I do? What became of God if He breathed His soul into Adam and Eve?? Did He breathe His soul into every angel and whatever other being He created, whatever other animals besides the ones we have on this earth? How many souls does God have? So far, it only says one. It doesn't say He has countless souls in His being. The breathe of life that He gave to Adam and Eve He gave to every living thing on this earth. Are they therefore immortal souls also? He breathed that life into the first bug ever created, is it alive in heaven also?? Is every living thing that God created then still alive in heaven or hell? Do animals go to hell? If not, all of them are in heaven, every fly, mosquito, everything that has the breath of life in it for all of life came from God and when they die that breath goes back to God. It says it goes back to God. Doesn't say it goes to heaven or hell, but to God. It is His power of life and it goes back to Him, and whoever had it, is nothing but dust, and will remain so unless He gives that breath back to them. If we are disembodied spirits conscious in heaven, then so are the animals--they too need to be resurrected and join their spirit to their body??

1Sa 25:29 Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling.
Job_27:8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?


The first death is a sleep that God will awaken us from, the 2nd death--there is no waking up from that--it is permanent unconsciousness. The little girl and Lazarus had not gone to heaven---why bring them back? There they are, gloriously happy in heaven, and they get hauled back to earth---what for, to make the people around them happy? They would have been horrified to have to come back to this miserable world after being in the presence of God and His angels and all the beauty of heaven--I'd be ticked off. Not to mention, neither said one single solitary word about having been in heaven. There were many who were resurrected when Christ died
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

They came out of their graves---doesn't say their souls were sent from heaven. God resurrected them. So they too, were hauled out of heaven and sent back here? They had been sleeping it says. Doesn't say they were in heaven. How long had they been sleeping? Supposedly we go immediately to heaven. Lazarus had been sleeping for 4 days.

Click to expand...

The word "soul" used for God should let us know that the word is not exclusive to being different for us. For man was made in God's image.

Furthermore, consider the following passages, as well.

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Psalms 16:10).

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27).

9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? "
(Revelation 6:9-10).

As for the passages you are referencing:

God can destroy souls in the Lake of Fire once and for all.

For Matthew 10:28 says, fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

As for Lazarus and the little girl whereby Jesus said they were sleeping: I believe it is possible that sleep is in reference to a person who is still hanging around looking at their body (or they do not remember anything) before they come back from the dead. So when Jesus said that the little girl was sleeping and not dead, I believe it possible that He could have been referring to how she had not yet crossed over into the realm of the dead yet (Sheol). It makes sense, at least from Jesus's perspective. If we were talking about how sleep is dead than Jesus would have contradicted himself because Jesus said she is not dead but she sleepeth. Meaning, her body was dead but her spirit was not dead and gone yet and crossed over into the realm of the dead.


...

Der Alter said:

In addition to Luke 19:19-31, the story of Lazarus and the rich man, in Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9)Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול/sheol] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.
.....Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
.....Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezekiel 32:18-22, Ezekiel 32:30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. ​

Click to expand...

While we may not always agree, and while things might have been heated before, I actually agree with you on this one. Well, said.

Anyways, may God's love shine upon you this fine day.


...

aiki said:

You hold this view in company with Jehovah's Witness cultists. The argument you propose about the soul has been made and refuted many times on this site by me and others. Check through the archives. I would also recommend you read the book "Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ron Rhodes. In it he pretty thoroughly defeats the idea of soul-sleep, annihilationism, the denial of the immortality of the soul, etc.

Selah.

Click to expand...

Guilty by association of a particular truth doesn't always follow in every case. For example: Would you claim that the Trinity is not true just because Catholics also believe in the Trinity? Surely not. The Bible is the final Word of authority here.


...

Jason0047 said:

The word "soul" used for God should let us know that the word is not exclusive to being different for us. For man was made in God's image.

Furthermore, consider the following passages, as well.

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Psalms 16:10).

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27).

9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? "
(Revelation 6:9-10).

As for the passages you are referencing:

God can destroy souls in the Lake of Fire once and for all.

For Matthew 10:28 says, fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

As for Lazarus and the little girl whereby Jesus said they were sleeping: I believe it is possible that sleep is in reference to a person who is still hanging around looking at their body (or they do not remember anything) before they come back from the dead. So when Jesus said that the little girl was sleeping and not dead, I believe it possible that He could have been referring to how she had not yet crossed over into the realm of the dead yet (Sheol). It makes sense, at least from Jesus's perspective. If we were talking about how sleep is dead than Jesus would have contradicted himself because Jesus said she is not dead but she sleepeth. Meaning, her body was dead but her spirit was not dead and gone yet and crossed over into the realm of the dead.


...

Click to expand...

Image---Not clone. Ken and Barbie are made in our image----are they the same as us, the same skin, the same insides, the same hearts and lungs -an image is a representation, not the actual thing, and no matter how closely they can make dolls look human--=they never will be. They even make corncob dolls in our image.

Yes, now it's they hang around a while--how long? First it was immediately we go to heaven--absent from the body, present with the Lord you say---now it's I'll just hang around and see what happens to me?? She is not dead but sleepeth- from this sleep she can be awakened, not from the 2nd death. Death only comes to the lost--permanent death. We only sleep until God awakens us.

Jason0047 said:

You are misinterpreting what that verse is saying. For what you do with the Scriptures that say how God has a soul?


...

Click to expand...

I'm not misinterpreting the passage. I explained that soul is used abstractly of life. However, when it is used concretely it is used of a living being that has a body.

24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. (Gen. 1:24 NKJ)

19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. (Gen. 2:19 NKJ)

In each of these passages the word "creature" is translate from the word Nephesh which means soul. So, the animals are also living souls.

As I said in the other post one must come to the text already believing that man can live apart from the body because that idea is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

Jason0047 said:

The word "soul" used for God should let us know that the word is not exclusive to being different for us. For man was made in God's image.

Furthermore, consider the following passages, as well.

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (Psalms 16:10).

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27).

9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? "
(Revelation 6:9-10).

As for the passages you are referencing:

God can destroy souls in the Lake of Fire once and for all.

For Matthew 10:28 says, fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

As for Lazarus and the little girl whereby Jesus said they were sleeping: I believe it is possible that sleep is in reference to a person who is still hanging around looking at their body (or they do not remember anything) before they come back from the dead. So when Jesus said that the little girl was sleeping and not dead, I believe it possible that He could have been referring to how she had not yet crossed over into the realm of the dead yet (Sheol). It makes sense, at least from Jesus's perspective. If we were talking about how sleep is dead than Jesus would have contradicted himself because Jesus said she is not dead but she sleepeth. Meaning, her body was dead but her spirit was not dead and gone yet and crossed over into the realm of the dead.


...

Click to expand...

The Old Testament word for soul just like the New Testament word mean breath. When Adam became a living soul it was because he started breathing.

Galilee63 said:

Please bear with me I am editing at the same time.
Fear God our Creator, as God Himself said through His Prophets and Priests and as Jesus has said within His New Testament yet trust in Jesus, turning to Jesus to receive His Mercy now and eternally through repentance of sins in remorse to Jesus regularly, receiving God's Blessed Holy Sacraments - His Blessed Flesh and Blood, His Eucharist/Holy Communion from hearts open to Jesus and thanking Jesus afterwards, because Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit are Present and Manifested at every Mass.
I agree with Jason through my relationship with Jesus, God, The Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary - The Holy Spirit leads me to every one of God's Holy Passages within His Holy Word of which applies to my soul here now and soul salvation illuminating my most serious sins committed against Jesus, past sins unrepented and Holy Guidance from God to do His Holy Will and not my own earthly will that would be of satan.
The Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts through God's Holy Word if we pray with The Sign of The Cross in particular just prior to opening God's Holy Word, pray and talk to Jesus and The Holy Spirit and Mother Mary, then wait and open God's Holy Word randomly and/or unless The Holy Spirit has already shown us God's Holy Passage to read prior to opening up His Holy Word/His Bible.
God our Creator allowed His only Begotten Son Jesus to 'descend' to earth - and Jesus was there with God and The Holy Spirit since the foundations of His Earth were layed - Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit laying the Foundations of His Earth then to suffer the worst persecutions, humiliations, Agonies, tortures and Bitter Passion here, with God never taking our Lord's Cup away from Him, then ascending Jesus back into Heaven with Him.
One point is if we think that God is going to let our souls rise up to Him in sin without repentance and without being Baptized (and receiving His Blessed Holy Sacraments) after Jesus and Mother Mary as God's Holy Examples have shown us His Holy Ways in which to walk one being when God led Joseph and Mary to have Jesus Baptized in His Church at Jerusalem and after allowing His only Begotten Son Jesus to suffer the worst sufferings here on earth, then we need to seriously think again. That is what satan would have us believe in order to claim more souls.
Jesus said to His Saints/Nuns each Century including Saint Marie Marthe Chambon, Saint Faustina, Saint Bridget and hundreds of other Saints, Nuns and others, that so many souls perish despite His Mercy available, that is to say, Jesus has said, to those of whom repent sins to Jesus and turn to Jesus during their lives here; they receive His Mercy now and at the hour of death avoiding The Just Hand of His and His Father's. God's Holy Will is God our Heavenly Father's Holy Will and no soul nor mankind can ever change God's Holy Will in Judgement, it is then too late.
Jesus sorrows greatly over lost souls to Him, claimed by satan of which God allows in His Holy Will, because it is only through Jesus' Mercy that we are saved and God our Heavenly Father mentioned this on numerous occasions within His Old Testament:
"My Messiah is forthcoming with His Mercy".
God our Creator has not changed from God in His Old Testament with the exception of Jesus descending to earth, suffering His Bitter Passion and dying for us, in order to be given the "Opportunity" to receive His Mercy with Holy Conditions attached one of which Jesus mentions within His New Testament:
"Repent and believe in The Good News".
It is through Jesus' Precious Holy Wounds and Precious Holy Blood through Prayer to Jesus, Trusting in Jesus, Repentance of sins to Jesus and Receiving Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit's Blessed Holy Sacraments and through the Holy Intercession of our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary that our souls can be saved.
In relation to infants and Children and souls dying in their Mother's wombs - all children/souls are to be Baptized as God has taught us within His Holy Word with Jesus and Mother Mary God's Holy Examples given to us. Joseph and Mary travelled in obedience to God, to have Jesus Baptized as an Infant. Jesus was later Baptized with The Holy Spirit again at the River Jordan for people at the time to learn this and for the other reasons involving John The Baptist.
Jesus delivered one of His many many Prayers within His Divine Mercy Novena given to Saint Faustina for mankind to pray to Him at 3pm one of which is the following;
"For all helpless Children who die in the womb of their Mother, I pray that all of these little souls will be given eternal life by our Lord Jesus Christ, within His Divine Mercy, and I beg Jesus that I be allowed to spiritually Baptise a little soul born dead and I do so by saying
"I Baptise you (given name, preferably a Saint's Name) in The Name of The Father, and of The Son, and of The Holy Spirit, Amen".
Satan has pulled the wool over the eyes of so many of us during our lives in order to claim souls dragging them into hell with him and his evil spirits.

Click to expand...

While there is nothing wrong with praying for children, infants, the unborn, mentally challenged etc. it is unnecessary. God provided for them in scripture already.

Jason0047 said:

While we may not always agree, and while things might have been heated before, I actually agree with you on this one. Well, said.
Anyways, may God's love shine upon you this fine day.
...

Click to expand...

Things have never been heated for me here. I simply state what is written in scripture.