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The Doctrine of Eternal Security-Is It Biblical?

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Normann

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Luke 8:13
They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

This is not the first time I've given this passage.

Notice how it is explained away by some?

Luke 15:4
What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luke 15:24
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
 
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SeekingTheTruth0819

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AnthonyE1778 said:
(John 3:16) A moment of faith alone in Christ alone shoots you into the innermost circle entitled "Experiential Truth". Inside this inner circle you earn eternal rewards (Matthew 6:19-20; 1st Corinthians 3:11-15) and you have personal fellowship with God (1st John 1:3-10). It is a temporal blessing. However, unconfessed sin will put you into the outer circle of fellowship in which the believer will recieve discipline (Hebrews 12), will lose rewards (Galatians 5; Ephesians 5), and enables the doctrine of sinning unto death (1st John 5:16). The believer still has, however, eternal life forever in the family of God (John 1:12-13) and is still born again (John 3:3-18). Once the believer confesses his/her known sins (1st John 1:9) they are back in the inner circle. Anyplace outside these two circles of course is also known as the "state of the unbeliever".

You take great liberties with the word of God. I looked at the passages you cited and found that you are completely misquoting the scripture.
 
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AnthonyE1778

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Normann said:
Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.


IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

This verse, therefore, refers to unbelievers as they cannot bring forth good fruit...
 
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J

jonas3

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"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off." - Ps 37:28

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." - Jn 6:39


"8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." - 1Cor 1:8-9

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." - 1Pet 1:5
 
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AnthonyE1778

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jonas3 said:
"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off." - Ps 37:28

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." - Jn 6:39

"8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." - 1Cor 1:8-9

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." - 1Pet 1:5

So you're for or against OSAS? I'm taking it that you are for?
 
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tommiegrant

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As normal when this subject comes up it generates much debate, and this is good a well structured and throughout debate is a wonderful way to learn. To that end I have noticed that one person regularly post verses as proofs against the doctrine of eternal security so in this post I will endeavor to take these passage and show that they in fact do not disprove eternal security.

We will begin our survey in the Gospels with Matthew chapter 3, the one verse that was pointed out was verse 10, however as any student knows we must look at a verse within its context this we will do taking Matthew 3:1-12



[font=&quot](NKJV) Matthew 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" 3 For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.' " 4 And John himself was clothed in camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 "and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as [our] father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 "His winnowing fan [is] in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."[/font]

As we can see this verse in context has nothing to do with eternal security this falls within John the Baptist’s reproach of the Pharisees and Sadducees. The reference is to the apostate sty of the leaders of the Jews. The public ministry of Jesus is fixing to start and the New Convenient ushered in. Thus this verse has nothing to do with the subject at hands.

Next we will look at Matthew 10:38 which our friend has brought up.Again we must find the context for this verse, which falls within chapter 10 verses 32-39.



[font=&quot]32 [/font][font=&quot]" Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. 34 " Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 "For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36"and 'a man's enemies will be those of his [own] household.' 37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it. [/font]

As is clear this verse falls within the context of Jesus teaching about Himself and what it is to be His follower. In this passage He is talking about those you are coming to Him and what it takes to be a true believer and has nothing to do with the subject at hand.



We will next turn our attention to the verses from Dr. Luke’s Gospel starting in chapter 8 the verse that was sighted is verse 13. We will look now to the context for a full understanding of what is being communicated. The context we find is verses 4-15.



[font=&quot]4 [/font][font=&quot]And when a great multitude had gathered, and they had come to Him from every city, He spoke by a parable: 5 "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. 6 "Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. 7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. 8 "But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" 9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, "What does this parable mean?" 10 And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest [it is given] in parables, that 'Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.' 11 " Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 "But the ones on the rock [are those] who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 "Now the ones [that] fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 "But the ones [that] fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep [it] and bear fruit with patience. [/font]

Here we have the Parable of the Sower and it’s explanation by Jesus Himself and I am not worthy to go any further with this as Jesus has clearly explained what He means and it does not deal with the subject at hand.

The next verse that is brought up is Luke 15:4, the context we find this verse in is 15: 1-10



[font=&quot](NKJV) Luke 15:1 Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. 2 And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying, "This Man receives sinners and eats with them." 3 So He spoke this parable to them, saying: 4 "What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 "And when he has found [it,] he lays [it] on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 "And when he comes home, he calls together [his] friends and neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' 7 "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. 8 " Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search carefully until she finds [it?] 9 "And when she has found [it,] she calls [her] friends and neighbors together, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the piece which I lost!' 10 "Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [/font]



This verse not only does not discredit eternal security but I believe clearly shows the reality of the doctrine of eternal security and the joy of all of Heaven when a person comes to the point of repentance and comes to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

The next verse brought up is Luke 24 the context for this verse is 11-24. At this time I will depart from the usual format and comment on this passage now rather than later. This passage just reinforces the last passage if you will it is an extension of the same thought.

[font=&quot]11 [/font][font=&quot]Then He said: "A certain man had two sons. 12 "And the younger of them said to [his] father, 'Father, give me the portion of goods that falls [to me.'] So he divided to them [his] livelihood. 13 "And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 "But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 "Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 "And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him [anything.] 17 "But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 'I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 "and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants." ' 20 "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.' 22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Bring out the best robe and put [it] on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on [his] feet. 23 'And bring the fatted calf here and kill [it,] and let us eat and be merry; 24 'for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry. [/font]
 
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tommiegrant

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Continued from last post.
The next verse we will deal with is Romans 8:1, the context for this verse is 8:1-11.



([font=&quot]NKJV) Romans 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God [did] by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those [who live] according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded [is] death, but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ [is] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin, but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. [/font]

My My a whole passage about the leading of the Holy Spirit and the work of the Holy Spirit and Paul explains this well. If you have the Holy Spirit you will be in touch with Christ and dead to the law but if one does not have the Holy Spirit he is lost and has never belonged to Christ. No evidence against eternal security.



Lastly we will look at 1st Cor. 15:31 the context for this is 15:20-58

[font=&quot]20 [/font][font=&quot]But now Christ is risen from the dead, [and] has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man [came] death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those [who are] Christ's at His coming. 24 Then [comes] the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy [that] will be destroyed [is] death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under [Him," it is] evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. 29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage [is it] to me? If [the] dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" 33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits." 34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak [this] to your shame. 35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain -- perhaps wheat or some other [grain.] 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. 39 All flesh [is] not the same flesh, but [there is] one [kind of] flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, [and] another of birds. 40 [There are] also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. 41 [There is] one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for [one] star differs from [another] star in glory. 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. [The body] is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam [became] a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man [was] of the earth, [made] of dust; the second Man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [was] the [man] of dust, so also [are] those [who are made] of dust; and as [is] the heavenly [Man,] so also [are] those [who are] heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the [man] of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly [Man.] 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed -- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where [is] your sting? O Hades, where [is] your victory?" 56 The sting of death [is] sin, and the strength of sin [is] the law. 57 But thanks [be] to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord[/font]

A defense of the doctrine of resurrection and Christ victory over death but again nothing to do with the doctrine of eternal security at least to disprove if this passage does anything in our context it would be to support the doctrine.

Within this post I have handled 7 of the verses that have been brought out in opposition in my next post I will deal with the Hebrews chapter 6 verse that was brought out I really hope that this sheds some light on the issue.

In the Love Of Christ, Tom

[font=&quot] [/font]

[font=&quot] [/font]
 
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tommiegrant

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An answer to the problem of Hebrews chapter 6: 4-8


4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, [it is] rejected and near to being cursed, whose end [is] to be burned.

This passage as well as the passage in chapter 10:26-30 have caused much debate among Christians as to the security of their salvation. This I do not believe was the writer’s intent nor do I believe that it was the understanding of the letters first audience. This belief of mine however is not universal many take this passage to teach that one can loose their salvation after having truly having been born again. While others believe this to be a form of Jewish argument where the writers takes an ideal to it’s logical conclusion to show the full impact of he ideal in question either proving or disproving it. This has been the position I have always taken on this passage up to now however I will attempt to show that while this is a good reading there is another that we have not yet considered.
Turn your thinking with me now to the entire book of Hebrews and let us consider the context for these two passages within the whole scope of the letter. First, let us consider the letter in the context of history.
First, who wrote Hebrews? The answer to this question is truthfully unknown to us today, however we can safely assume that the original readers knew who wrote the letter. There are some things we do know about the author first he had an intimate knowledge of the Old Testament and The Law his knowledge would be above average for the time. He was an educated man this we know from the polished style of the writing next he had an intimate knowledge of God’s work through history leading up to the birth life death and resurrection of Jesus of the Christ. Let me give some evidence for these ideals. Look at the introduction in chapter 1(1-4) and see the writer reference the work of God through history culminating in the work of Jesus. Next see the arguments the writer gives for the Godhood of Jesus (chapter1:5-14). Going a little deeper with this point in the next few chapters the writer shows how Jesus has fulfilled the Old Covenant how He is superior to all that has come before and that is the fulfillment of what God has promised to His people. The writer goes on to show that only in Jesus are the promises of God fulfilled and that to neglect this to reject the fulfillment of God’s promises and to turn ones back on God.
Now the question comes up whom was this written to and when was it written? The general thoughts concerning the who is that the letter was written to Christians of Jewish roots in Rome. I can agree with this however I see no reason to believe that Rome would have been the only audience for this letter this letter could well have circulated to many of the early communities of Christians. As to the date of the authorship, no one knows for sure but from internal evidences, it is safe to assume that the letter had to be written before 64 AD. The reason we can assume this is that the first century Jewish historian Josephus place 64AD has the beginning of the Jewish Roman War. Also from the writings of Josephus, we know that at this time the Jewish people where divided into factions among themselves. This begs back to my earlier point of the ideal that the readership of this letter need not be limited to Rome. The War started out in the empire and worked its way to both Rome and Jerusalem. The situation after 64AD is well described by J. Stuart Russell. “The Jewish war, under Vespasian commenced at the furthest distance from Jerusalem in Galilee, and gradually drew nearer and nearer to the doomed city. The Romans were not the only agents in the work of slaughter that depopulated the land; hostile factions among the Jews themselves turned their arms against one another, so that it might be said every man’s hand was against his brother.” Josephus puts it like this “Every city was divided into two armies encamped against one another… so the daytime was spent in shedding blood and the night in fear.” (Wars, 2: 18:2) Therefore, for the above-mentioned reasons we can safely say this letter was of early origin and the purpose for it was to warn, encourage, prepare, and educate the people of Christ as to the great times of tribulation ahead.
 
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tommiegrant

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Hebrews explanation continued.
With this background, we will now turn out attention to the passage at hand.
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put [Him] to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briars, [it is] rejected and near to being cursed, whose end [is] to be burned.
When we read this passage it begs an answer what is the author talking about. This is the question I will now try to answer. With the background given, think if you will about the who in this question. I believe it is true born again Christians that the author is addressing I do not think there is anyway to deny this just look at the very vivid description he gives. Enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. This could only describe one that is truly born again. No great revelation there virtually everyone agrees on that point. It is in the next part of this passage that the real question comes. What is the author warning the reader about? What I believe the author is warning the reader about is the judgment that is right at hand. At this point in history many Jews who had converted to Christianity where not growing in their faith and had little understanding of the way the way God was working they were being attacked from all sides by both the Jews and Romans. Therefore, they were like the wilderness wonders thinking of falling back to the old ways and beliefs of Judaism or maybe even trying emperor worship with the Romans. What the author is telling them is that this is no good these are the very two institutions coming under the wrath of God. Jerusalem for rejecting its Messiah and going into open apostasy and Rome for its decadence. If these early Christians went back to the Jewish way then they would have to reject Jesus as the Messiah and His finished work on the cross in essences saying that it needed to be done again and this is not going to happen. When Jesus comes back next time it will be as a conquering King not a servant. The author writes with such passion because he sees what is happening and thought the guide of the Holy Spirit has a far greater understanding of what is happening and going to happen than anyone else so he therefore write with passion born of love and concern to these people urging them to stay the course. The author sees that the end of Judaism is at hand that God’s wrath is going to fall on Rome just as it did on Egypt and Babylon. The writer sees that the Old Covenant is being closed forever that it is now roughly a generation after the earthly ministry of Jesus and that God is cleaning the books. Apostate Israel is being judged the time of temple worship is over. The Law has been fulfilled and it is time to move on. To go back is to go back to judgment to go back to that which God has said to flee from. To go back is to step out of God’s protection and into the path of God’s judgment and wrath. This is of course dealing with what is happening at that particular time in history and the warnings have to do with earthly judgment not eternal. There is nothing in this passage that makes it necessary to see the judgment described as an eternal judgment. When we read things like” whose end is to be burned” this can easily be referring to the judgment that is being passed on the apostates and that if a believer where to fall back into this system then they would meet the same fires of judgment here on earth that the apostates are enduring. This can be said without saying that their eternal destiny is same.
Therefore, to recap it is my view that the judgment spoken of in this passage is dealing with an earthly judgment for those believers who willingly walk out from under God’s protection and into the path of His wrath.
I realize that this is an ideal that as far as I know has been presented or if it has was not given any real consideration. Some would say to hold this view takes away from the scripture. I disagree this view takes nothing away from scripture I would argue that it clarifies scripture and gives us even more evidence to see that the Bible is divine rather than human in origin. First seeing this warning within the context I have set adds to the prophecy aspect of scripture as these warnings are written before the actual events in order to prepare the people then we see in history the fulfillment this points to the inspiration of the scripture. It teaches us a great lesson about God and the way He deals with His people. It shows His longsuffering and mercy by waiting to bring His judgment against Israel , and by sending faithful servants to warn of the coming wrath just as He did in Noah’s day. We See God holding off His judgment through the lifetime and ministry of Jesus then for another 30 plus years while the gospel is spread and the people are warned. Finally, we see God doing what He said He would do and that is bringing judgment on those who have rejected Him and His Christ. Another thing we learn about God is that He wants the best for us makes every possible way for us to have the best but leaves it up to us to choose. In the case at hand God has provided warning and encouragement to the people of Christ but if they choose to reject that and walk in to the path of God’s wrath as it is poured out on the apostate Israel then they to will suffer. Not God’s doings but man’s. Having begun to see scripture this way so much of what I struggled with as become clear and the glory majesty and holiness of God as shown through so clear that is like the sun coming out bright and clear after many days of clouds darkness and rain, both welcomed and longed for.

Works Cited.
1. All scripture taken from the New King James Bible, Thomas Nelson Publishers Nashville TN.
2. J. Stuart Russell quote taken from “ Revelation: Four Views” by Steve Gregg, Thomas Nelson Publishers Nashville Tn.
3. Josephus, “ Wars , 2: 18:2”
4. Josephus “ Wars”
5. The Nelson Study Bible 2885 BG
 
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tommiegrant

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One thing that all of us must guard against is proof texting or taking the scriptures out of context. This does no one any good. Scripture was written within a specific context for a reason and that reason was so that we would have a complete understanding of the idea being communicated. When we remove scripture from its context to prove a point then we are dishonest with ourselves and others. We all wish to share our views of Scripture and through this interaction to learn but for this to happen we have to be carefull to keep the context of the verses and passages we quote. I am sure there is no intent to be misleading on the part of anyone here just a zeal for learning and being able to apply the Word of God. But lets please reframe from proof texting when making an argument.
In The Love Of Christ, Tom
 
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GQ Chris

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Once saved always saved would mean that suicides will still get to go to Heaven, and then by that rational, someone who committed murder and then dies shortly after could also still merit Heaven, how does that make sense?
 
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AnthonyE1778

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GQ Chris said:
Once saved always saved would mean that suicides will still get to go to Heaven, and then by that rational, someone who committed murder and then dies shortly after could also still merit Heaven, how does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense...Salvation is based on grace through faith alone! Works is not a condition...it is true that one can still 'sin unto death', but that does not mean that the believer is not going to heaven...that would mean that God is backing out on his promise and that is pure blasphemy!
 
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cygnusx1

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GQ Chris said:
I don't think eternal security is Biblical. Daniel Corner has an 800 page book out called "The Believer's Conditional Security". I have not read it yet, but it's been getting rave reviews.

Our Security is conditional ................. it is based upon Free Grace.

Those who want salvation and then don't want it are sad and misguided !

Can anyone imagine being saved and then saying , no I don't think I want salvation now......... madness.

Also , mankinds natural thinking is to have the full say in salvation , and the full say in rejecting it ............ but that is because men naturally want salvation by works ........ and then along comes God's Word and pulls the carpet out right under our feet and says .... there is no salvation by works. :D
 
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tommiegrant

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Stay away from proof texting because by its veru definition you are taking a text out of its context so that you may make it mean whatever it you want it to. proof texting is not the same as providing proof from the text. When proof is provided from the text it means that you use the text within its given context to prove the point of the text.
In Christ Tom
 
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tommiegrant

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Yes if someone commitas suicide and that person is really a believer then they will go to Heaven. I am not avocating the taking of ones life it is a sin but it is not the unforgiveable sin. Remember that God knew you would do this when He saved you.
Next we can never merit salvation or entrance into Heaven that comes by grace alone through Jesus Christ alone, this is why we can not loose our salvation we do not hold it He does, and what He holds He does not loose.
In Christ,Tom
 
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AbideInChrist

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Am I debating or pontificating on behalf of Jesus? One Pope is enough.
Where is the 'Spirit of Truth Who guides into all Truth'? Do I have the testimony of this? Have I really been expressing unbelief in this and in the Bible's assertion that we should by faith become of 'one mind'?
I have considered a lot of dogma, philosophy and self contradicting argument but do I grasp the principles of God's Government; understand the concepts and implications of both doctrines and can I better put forward my 'opponents' argument than they and still disprove it? I need divine inspiration; not to dogmatically use the Bible as a club to beat down others. We need faith in an answer from Heaven, all of us, on both sides.

Yours in hope,
AbideInChrist.
 
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AnthonyE1778

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AbideInChrist said:
Am I debating or pontificating on behalf of Jesus? One Pope is enough.
Where is the 'Spirit of Truth Who guides into all Truth'? Do I have the testimony of this? Have I really been expressing unbelief in this and in the Bible's assertion that we should by faith become of 'one mind'?
I have considered a lot of dogma, philosophy and self contradicting argument but do I grasp the principles of God's Government; understand the concepts and implications of both doctrines and can I better put forward my 'opponents' argument than they and still disprove it? I need divine inspiration; not to dogmatically use the Bible as a club to beat down others. We need faith in an answer from Heaven, all of us, on both sides.

Yours in hope,
AbideInChrist.

The problem with everybody is that we all seem to think that being Dogmatic is a bad thing...if there is only one way to Christ...one way to heaven...than being Dogmatic is kinda necessary!
 
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