The Doctrine of Election?

[KagomeShuko]

I don't believe in this, but when I posted in one of my journals:

I also believe that God loves everybody. I believe he sent Jesus to save us. I believe we are all born with a sinful nature, but when we decide to receive the gift of salvation given to us that Jesus sees us as righteous even though we are in a constantly sinful state. I also believe that God gives the gift of salvation to all, but we must accept it. It is available to all. It is not or our works that we are saved, for even when we doubt, God has the gift of salvation. It is just that we must accept it. When we accpet, God rejoices. We are the sheep that returns to the shepherd's flock. We are the coin that the finder finds.

A friend replied:​

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Hmmm... that I disagree with. Scripture speaks clearly on the doctrine of election - that not all are chosen. Only those chosen (predestined) will be saved. It is true that all who accept His gift will be saved, but God chooses us before we choose Him. A casual reading of John or Romans makes these points clear.​

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Where in John or Romans would one find such things? No verses were given and I've read John and Romans. I already has a discussion with a friend here about not accepting this view and giving verses supporting that (though more are always welcome!) ​

Stein Auf!​

Bridget​

 

[seebs]

Ooh! You face here a very nasty bit of theology, containing apparently contradictory claims. Romans 8:39-40, I think, is the usual citation... But what it means, especially in context, I am not sure.

The notion of people God doesn't wish to save strikes me as probably in error.

 

[KagomeShuko]

Ooh! You face here a very nasty bit of theology, containing apparently contradictory claims. Romans 8:39-40, I think, is the usual citation... But what it means, especially in context, I am not sure.

The notion of people God doesn't wish to save strikes me as probably in error.

Is it??? This is the "nothing can separate us from the love of God" verse.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[seebs]

I might have misremembered. It's on point, though; it's used to argue that if God loves you, you are necessarily saved.

 

[Arikereba]

There are a few things I don't hate about the doctrine of election (cursing with faint praise, there!). I have an absolute belief in free will--and, yes, I DO believe that we can choose God with our own free will, because God has first chosen us. All of us. But I find that hard to reconcile with my impression of my own conversion as...God fwapping me repeatedly until I got the point.

Here's an idea I kind of like: that though all of us are loved by God, perhaps saved (I'm not entirely a universalist), there are some of us who are called--elected-- to be the visible church. To visit widows and orphans, and to talk about God's love for us, and to bring about the kingdom of God in the world as much as is possible.
(I also have problems with this idea, 'cause, man, you don't think an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God would've so much picked Jerry Falwell or Fred Phelps to be the visible church...but hey, it's a theory).

 

[Im_A]

ahh, pre-destination vs. free-will discussion has reached our forums.


i don't know about this "election" theory anymore. i mean if there is a set few, chosen to believe in God, then what would that mean towards Jesus's death?

but, could it possibly mean that the pre-destination is only aiming at the people who have used their free-will to chose salvation? like basically meaning, that God knows all the people that will chose to follow Him, and that is actually pre-destination.

or does it really go on the lines of pre-determined? and if that is true, then wouldn't that go against the verse that says, "God is not a respector of men?"

 

[Im_A]

plus, i have a hard time accepting this "election" theory, because it seems to make the Great Commission Christ gave us as a pointless action.

just some thoughts on this election theory.

 

[KagomeShuko]

plus, i have a hard time accepting this "election" theory, because it seems to make the Great Commission Christ gave us as a pointless action.

just some thoughts on this election theory.

Yes, I don't believe in the predestination of people, either. If there's predestination, all that would mean to me is that God "predestined" those who come to believe through the free will given them. Then that the doctrine of election is only for the comfort of Christians to be able to say, "We are God's children."

I've read the verses others have given me and I can somewhat see how they get predestination, but I still don't totally get how they can with all the other free will verses and Jesus died for all verses.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[McCravey]

All true....I think....duh....I dunno.

But, I do believe in my own election and predestination.

 

[apenman]

Have this debate over in liberal theology and I'll be happy to help.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I don't think it's a debate (yet?) Apenman.

Besides, if anybody here would like to debate you, I think GT would be a better forum than LT.

...but then again, I don't feel like debating.

 

[newname]

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Rev. 3)

the church is the Body of Christ, Christians,

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."(Rev 3)

"To him that OVERCOMETH will i grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne, He that hath an ear, LET HIM HEAR WHAT THE SPIRIT SAITH UNTO THE CHURCHES." (Rev. 3)

God says that many are called and few are chosen, don't reject these words because they are hard, consider what the Spirit says and seek the truth diligently,

those that OVERCOME are those who have been willing to "turn" in the way of truth when God turns them, they did not fight against it and came unto repentance, knowledge that saves,

the church, are those who have been "called" out of the world, by God, and the "chosen", the overcomers are those who are "taken" out of this world, no longer being influenced by the world or by the spirit of error,

the church has been given faith, knowledge that moves one to seek God, the knowledge that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation,

those of the body of Christ, the church, must seek the kingdom of God above everything else, loving truth above all, only then will God give you the ability to overcome the lies, it's God who searches the hearts, and at the appointed time, IF one "keeps the commandments" loving truth above all, will he give you the ability to "overcome", (John 14)

consider what the Spirit says,

the church must be willing to be corrected, not leaning on their own understanding,
those who love THIS life will lose it, the church must seek a new life, not of this world,

newname