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The difficulty of talking to Atheist

Colter

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The Atheist have come out from behind their material hiding place and joined the Christian forum to tell us that our experience with God isn't real.... according to what could only be a non-material assessment, but they are exempt from telling us why or how they know this because their conclusions are supposedly strictly expressions of electrochemical phenomenon from soulless automatons.

If Atheist were right then one has nothing to loose "imagining" another existence other than that of a meaningless life.
 
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JGG

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The Atheist have come out from behind their material hiding place and joined the Christian forum to tell us that our experience with God isn't real.... according to what could only be a non-material assessment, but they are exempt from telling us why or how they know this because their conclusions are supposedly strictly expressions of electrochemical phenomenon from soulless automatons.

If Atheist were right then one has nothing to loose "imagining" another existence other than that of a meaningless life.

I think you misunderstand. There are an infinite number of possibilities for what may lay beyond what we know. You are making assertions that your belief is correct, without any way to back it up. I just don't believe you. And why should I? There are billions of other people who would convince me that their contradictory belief is correct. Why shouldn't I believe them?

But I do not assume I am correct. In fact, I haven't made a claim yet. You may be right. But I doubt it. The problem is you claim this life is meaningless, and thus you want to escape it, and have dreamt up one where you're actions have some deeper meaning.

My life does have meaning. I don't feel the need to escape it with fantasy. Since my life has meaning, I know that you're wrong about this being a meaningless life. Why would I need to imagine another one?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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The Atheist have come out from behind their material hiding place and joined the Christian forum to tell us that our experience with God isn't real.... according to what could only be a non-material assessment, but they are exempt from telling us why or how they know this because their conclusions are supposedly strictly expressions of electrochemical phenomenon from soulless automatons.

If Atheist were right then one has nothing to loose "imagining" another existence other than that of a meaningless life.

This strikes me as double standards. You want to hold atheists to the epistemic standards that you consider yourself exempt from. Given what you've said, why shouldn't an atheist merely assert that your experience isn't genuine? Why should he or she have to explain why or how they know this to be the case? You apparently think you don't have to, so why should they?
 
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Colter

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This strikes me as double standards. You want to hold atheists to the epistemic standards that you consider yourself exempt from. Given what you've said, why shouldn't an atheist merely assert that your experience isn't genuine? Why should he or she have to explain why or how they know this to be the case? You apparently think you don't have to, so why should they?

This is the difference m8, you came to this forum of Christian believers to denigrate the subjective experience of faith when you just as well could enjoy the fellowship of like minded pessimists on the Atheist forums. I don't need to prove to myself the faith based experience with God that I am having and I have already conceded that we cannot translate the spiritual experience into material proof. Considering that you often stand behind the rigid scientific method, as if you really do that in every aspect of your life, then it is appropriate to ask by what technique you claim to know that we do not know? [This question doesn't even address the fact that you are transcending the material universe to make the observation about the value of another's observations/experiences while presupposing that such a realm does not exist].
 
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Loudmouth

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I don't have any miraculous signs or proofs that will satisfy you. Jesus demonstrated that such anomalies still aren't enough for the professional skeptic.

Where did Jesus demonstrate that?

In the case of Jesus, when pressed for authority to teach as he did, he replied that no sign shall be given, but then he said "tear down this temple (pointing to his body) and in three days I will raise it up again." He did just that, but even for us disciples we still grapple with living the same faith life that Jesus lived.

Where is the evidence that Jesus rose after three days? Stories in books are not evidence.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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This is the difference m8, you came to this forum of Christian believers to denigrate the subjective experience of faith when you just as well could enjoy the fellowship of like minded pessimists on the Atheist forums.

No, I came to this forum years ago, as a Christian.

I don't need to prove to myself the faith based experience with God that I am having and I have already conceded that we cannot translate the spiritual experience into material proof. Considering that you often stand behind the rigid scientific method, as if you really do that in every aspect of your life, then it is appropriate to ask by what technique you claim to know that we do not know? [This question doesn't even address the fact that you are transcending the material universe to make the observation about the value of another's observations/experiences while presupposing that such a realm does not exist].

But I don't have to do that. I could just emulate you and claim special exemption.
 
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Loudmouth

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The Atheist have come out from behind their material hiding place and joined the Christian forum to tell us that our experience with God isn't real....

What we have done is ask for evidence demonstrating that it is real. That is not the same as claiming that it isn't real. This is a simple concept that you can't seem to understand.

When you claim that something exists it is incumbent on you to provide evidence for that claim.

If Atheist were right then one has nothing to loose "imagining" another existence other than that of a meaningless life.

An atheist doesn't need to worship a deity in order for find meaning and purpose in life.
 
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Belk

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Well, God is living. Bible says it, so what do you want me to do about that?

Nothing. This is quite obviously beyond you. I just wished to point it out.

As for definition, mine for living would be that God is a conscious, feeling, thinking entity. There may be other ways to say it, but that's my way at this time of the night.


Is that what the book says or are you reading into it?
 
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Loudmouth

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This is the difference m8, you came to this forum of Christian believers to denigrate the subjective experience of faith when you just as well could enjoy the fellowship of like minded pessimists on the Atheist forums.

I am quite fine with defining religious belief as a subjective and faith based belief.

What we disagree with is that there is objective evidence for the existence of God. We also disagree when some christians feel it necessary to tear down real objective evidence in order to produce a false equivalence between their subjective faith and real facts.

I don't need to prove to myself the faith based experience with God that I am having and I have already conceded that we cannot translate the spiritual experience into material proof.

You are right. You have already convinced yourself. However, you are making the claim that atheists are without excuse for not being convinced by the evidence you have presented. That is an animal of a different color.

Considering that you often stand behind the rigid scientific method, as if you really do that in every aspect of your life, then it is appropriate to ask by what technique you claim to know that we do not know? [This question doesn't even address the fact that you are transcending the material universe to make the observation about the value of another's observations/experiences while presupposing that such a realm does not exist].

You don't stand behind the rigid scientific method? I really doubt that you reject the scientific method.

If you were a juror in a murder trial, would you ignore all of the forensic science because it was gathered and tested with that rigid scientific method? Would you instead find the defendant guilty based on the faith based claims of the prosecutor telling you that the defendant is guilty?
 
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Colter

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I think you misunderstand. There are an infinite number of possibilities for what may lay beyond what we know. You are making assertions that your belief is correct, without any way to back it up. I just don't believe you. And why should I? There are billions of other people who would convince me that their contradictory belief is correct. Why shouldn't I believe them?

But I do not assume I am correct. In fact, I haven't made a claim yet. You may be right. But I doubt it. The problem is you claim this life is meaningless, and thus you want to escape it, and have dreamt up one where you're actions have some deeper meaning.

My life does have meaning. I don't feel the need to escape it with fantasy. Since my life has meaning, I know that you're wrong about this being a meaningless life. Why would I need to imagine another one?

* And you won't believe me unless and until you experience it yourself.

* I'm making the assertion that I am having a faith experience with a spiritual reality, we symbolize that with the term "God". My perceptions of the spirit are similar to others who are having the same, this isn't to be confused with the dogma of religious institutions who unfortunately try to standardize the experience, it's interpretations as well perpetuating other unfortunate byproducts of ecclesiasticism.

* I don't claim that life is meaningless, I observe that the philosophy of the Atheist is ultimately meaningless in that it terminates in eternal death from which there is no recollection, consciousness, future, present or past. Ultimately life meant nothing after the fact. However, some Atheist do claim that they leave behind meaningful doctrines of doubt in posterity for the good purpose of dissuading future generations of would be religionist....all for the betterment of the world which will one day be gobbled up by the sun. Such is life in the mind of the materialist.

* If religion is the opiate of the masses, its not the religion of Jesus of Nazareth. My faith is not merely a part of my life, an escape from life, a ritual or a tradition, my faith encompasses the totality of life, of all reality.

"But do not make the mistake of trying to prove to other men that you have found God; you cannot consciously produce such valid proof, albeit there are two positive and powerful demonstrations of the fact that you are God-knowing, and they are:


1) The fruits of the spirit of God showing forth in your daily routine life.

2) The fact that your entire life plan furnishes positive proof that you have unreservedly risked everything you are and have on the adventure of survival after death in the pursuit of the hope of finding the God of eternity, whose presence you have foretasted in time.
 
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Colter

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I am quite fine with defining religious belief as a subjective and faith based belief.

What we disagree with is that there is objective evidence for the existence of God. We also disagree when some christians feel it necessary to tear down real objective evidence in order to produce a false equivalence between their subjective faith and real facts.



You are right. You have already convinced yourself. However, you are making the claim that atheists are without excuse for not being convinced by the evidence you have presented. That is an animal of a different color.



You don't stand behind the rigid scientific method? I really doubt that you reject the scientific method.

If you were a juror in a murder trial, would you ignore all of the forensic science because it was gathered and tested with that rigid scientific method? Would you instead find the defendant guilty based on the faith based claims of the prosecutor telling you that the defendant is guilty?

Two different realms, I respect and even enjoy science in it's discipline. The realm of the spirit is no place for the scientific method and visa versa.



"The scientist, as such, is limited to the discovery of the relatedness of material facts. Technically, he has no right to assert that he is either materialist or idealist, for in so doing he has assumed to forsake the attitude of a true scientist since any and all such assertions of attitude are the very essence of philosophy". UB

I haven't presented convincing evidence, I already knew from the beginning that people don't find God based on scientific methods. That is the meaning behind the OP. I don't claim to have such proofs.
 
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Colter

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What we have done is ask for evidence demonstrating that it is real. That is not the same as claiming that it isn't real. This is a simple concept that you can't seem to understand.

When you claim that something exists it is incumbent on you to provide evidence for that claim.



An atheist doesn't need to worship a deity in order for find meaning and purpose in life.


In the same way that you cannot provide evidence that God does not exist using the scientific method we cant provide evidence that he does.

Any meaning and purpose you had in life will be extinguished by death.
 
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Loudmouth

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In the same way that you cannot provide evidence that God does not exist using the scientific method we cant provide evidence that he does.

"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."--Bertrand Russell

It is your burden of proof to show that God does exist.

Any meaning and purpose you had will be extinguished by death.

The effects we have had on friends, family, and society will not be extinguished.
 
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BL2KTN

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Colter said:
I don't claim that life is meaningless, I observe that the philosophy of the Atheist is ultimately meaningless in that it terminates in eternal death from which there is no recollection, consciousness, future, present or past.

How silly to assume that humans a millions years from now won't be able to manipulate time and space to resurrect those who perished before.
 
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Colter

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"Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time."--Bertrand Russell

It is your burden of proof to show that God does exist.



The effects we have had on friends, family, and society will not be extinguished.

After the earth is eaten by the Sun your friends, family and society won't exist. This doesn't prove God or that meanings can grow into eternal realities, but an intellectually honest Atheist would have to concede an ultimate meaninglessness at some point in the future to anything in the earths history that was lofty, noble and good.
 
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Loudmouth

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After the earth is eaten by the Sun your friends, family and society won't exist.

The knowledge that I add to society can live on with humanity in space or on other planets.

You are simply wrong about the idea that an atheist's meaning and purpose die with them. They live in on the people that we love and the societies we are a part of. It is rather disappointing that you feel the need to denigrate atheism in order to feel better about your own faith.

This doesn't prove God or that meanings can grow into eternal realities, but an intellectually honest Atheist would have to concede an ultimate meaninglessness at some point in the future to anything in the earths history that was lofty, noble and good.

I don't have to admit to any such thing. Atheists choose their own meaning and purpose in life, just as you chose to have christianity as a central part of the meaning in your life.
 
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