The difficulty of talking to Atheist

[Colter]

If faith is proof, then any statement can be shown to be true just by believing it is true. You have just demonstrated that "Religion has no epistemology whatsoever". Epistemology is a set of rules for determining what is and isn't true. According to you, there are no rules and anything can be true.



They point out that you can't present objective evidence to support your claims, which continues to be true.

You drew a false conclusion and presented the straw man in your argument.

"Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion......UB 1955

Epistemology is only as good as far as it goes. In the realm of the spirit it is useless.

 

[Loudmouth]

You drew a false conclusion and presented the straw man in your argument.

"Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion......UB 1955

Where is the strawman?

Epistemology is only as good as far as it goes. In the realm of the spirit it is useless.

Just as I said, religion has no epistemology. Anything can be true if you believe hard enough.

 

[Colter]

The above is full of stolen concepts. Concepts such as "reason", "truth", "valid" and "knowledge are genetically dependent on the axioms of philosophy which you have stated are "false constructs". Therefore by your own admission the passage above is not true and can not be true. So what is your point in posting it.

Let us know who we "stole" those from, and you will owe them considerable royalties yourself.

 

[Colter]

Where is the strawman?



Just as I said, religion has no epistemology. Anything can be true if you believe hard enough.

* This was your straw man "If faith is proof, then any statement can be shown to be true just by believing it is true." That's not true and I did not say that.

The religionist believes in ultimate truth and we are in search of it. When one starts out upon the faith adventure, right then and there is born the subjective consciousness of his quest. Atheist, or at least the sincere ones, demand proof before the adventure and that's no adventure at all!

 

[Loudmouth]

The religionist believes in ultimate truth and we are in search of it.

How do you determine if you have found it?

When one starts out upon the faith adventure, right then and there is born the subjective consciousness of his quest. Atheist, or at least the sincere ones, demand proof before the adventure and that's no adventure at all!

If you ignore evidence and rely on faith, then anything can be true if you believe it hard enough. That is the consequence of your path.

 

[Aldebaran]

How do you determine if you have found it?



If you ignore evidence and rely on faith, then anything can be true if you believe it hard enough. That is the consequence of your path.

Or if you experience something that convinces you of the truth. Not all convincing requires objective proof.

 

[Loudmouth]

Or if you experience something that convinces you of the truth. Not all convincing requires objective proof.

I have no doubt that people are convinced to believe something without valid evidence. I do not dispute the existence of the gullible.

How do we determine if what they believe is true? Is it true by the mere fact that they believe it?

 

[bhsmte]

I have no doubt that people are convinced to believe something without valid evidence. I do not dispute the existence of the gullible.

How do we determine if what they believe is true? Is it true by the mere fact that they believe it?

IMO, in regards to belief without verifiable evidence, it comes down to becoming the truth, because they have a "need" for it to be true.

 

[Aldebaran]

IMO, in regards to belief without verifiable evidence, it comes down to becoming the truth, because they have a "need" for it to be true.

Or you just need to have your eyes opened. Only God can do that for you.

Have you ever attempted to talk to a person about color who was blind from birth? How would you go about describing it to them, much less prove to them that colors exist?

 

[Loudmouth]

Or you just need to have your eyes opened. Only God can do that for you.

What if it is your eyes that need to be opened?

Have you ever attempted to talk to a person about color who was blind from birth? How would you go about describing it to them, much less prove to them that colors exist?

The same way that I would describe microwaves and xrays to you, the kinds of light that you can't see. There are objective ways of measuring light that does not require a functioning retina.

 

[True Scotsman]

Let us know who we "stole" those from, and you will owe them considerable royalties yourself.

They are stolen from Objectivism. You know the axioms that you said were "false constructs". How ironic that you must accept and use the fundamentals of an atheist philosophy in order to claim your religious beliefs.

 

[Aldebaran]

What if it is your eyes that need to be opened?

Reverse psychology. You never answered my question.

The same way that I would describe microwaves and xrays to you, the kinds of light that you can't see. There are objective ways of measuring light that does not require a functioning retina.

How can you do that with the blind man? He hasn't the first clue as to what colors are because he has no idea what sight is. He's never had it. So how will you relate to him in a way that will make him understand?

 

[Loudmouth]

Reverse psychology. You never answered my question.

Then show the evidence if it is my eyes that need to be opened.

How can you do that with the blind man?

The same way that I do it with isotopes that release light I can't see.

Scintillator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He hasn't the first clue as to what colors are because he has no idea what sight is.

You can still prove the existence of photons to both a sighted and blind person using objective, scientific evidence. That is the fact that you keep ignoring.

So how will you relate to him in a way that will make him understand?

The same way that I would convince you of the existence of wavelengths that you can't see. The wavelengths that make up white light are a tiny, tiny fraction of the light that does exist.

 

[Aldebaran]

Then show the evidence if it is my eyes that need to be opened.

Your responses are the evidence.

The same way that I do it with isotopes that release light I can't see.

Scintillator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The blind man has no idea what light is. He's never seen it, or seen anything else. It's not something he can relate to.

You can still prove the existence of photons to both a sighted and blind person using objective, scientific evidence. That is the fact that you keep ignoring.

I had asked you about describing color to him. How would you describe color?

 

[Loudmouth]

Your responses are the evidence.

Evidence of what?

The blind man has no idea what light is. He's never seen it, or seen anything else.

You don't have to see photons in order to discover what light is. No one can see x-rays or microwaves, and yet we can understand what they are through objective and scientific evidence.

I had asked you about describing color to him. How would you describe color?

The same way that I would describe different frequencies of photons outside of the range of human eyes.

 

[Colter]

How do you determine if you have found it?



If you ignore evidence and rely on faith, then anything can be true if you believe it hard enough. That is the consequence of your path.

The same way you know love without having to analyze it. Just as there is the realm of the material, there is the realm of the spiritual. Former Atheist that I know come to God as the result of reaching a point in their lives where they become dissatisfied with themselves, usually an ego deflating, psychic trauma. They describe finding God as a reality that they just could not have realized, known or figured out with their previous attitude towards such religion. It was that way with me. I was never Atheist, I was simply indifferent.

 

[Aldebaran]

Evidence of what?

I was responding to the question you just asked me, "Then show the evidence if it is my eyes that need to be opened." You seem to have a short memory.

You don't have to see photons in order to discover what light is. No one can see x-rays or microwaves, and yet we can understand what they are through objective and scientific evidence.

Without understanding what light is (which we can see), we can't understand Xrays and microwaves.

What I'm trying to point out is that a blind man who has never seen before will not be able to relate to sight.

 

[Loudmouth]

The same way you know love without having to analyze it.

I can demonstrate, with evidence, that the person I love actually exists. That's the difference.

Just as there is the realm of the material, there is the realm of the spiritual.

Evidence, please.

Former Atheist that I know come to God as the result of reaching a point in their lives where they become dissatisfied with themselves, usually an ego deflating, psychic trauma. They describe finding God as a reality that they just could not have realized, known or figured out with their previous attitude towards such religion. It was that way with me. I was never Atheist, I was simply indifferent.

That is only evidence for a belief. We are asking for evidence that God is real.

 

[True Scotsman]

* This was your straw man "If faith is proof, then any statement can be shown to be true just by believing it is true." That's not true and I did not say that.

The religionist believes in ultimate truth and we are in search of it. When one starts out upon the faith adventure, right then and there is born the subjective consciousness of his quest. Atheist, or at least the sincere ones, demand proof before the adventure and that's no adventure at all!

What are truth and proof? What is there to be true or to prove if consciousness and existence don't exist as you said they don't when denying the axioms?

Do you now recant your objection to the axioms?

 

[Aldebaran]

I can demonstrate, with evidence, that the person I love actually exists. That's the difference.

Good for you. If only that was what we were talking about....

Evidence, please.

Just look around you--and see it, if you're willing.

That is only evidence for a belief. We are asking for evidence that God is real.

If something is real, don't you believe it?