The Difference Between Rhema vs Logos vs Graphe

[AudioArtist]

Yes, He will indeed, and I know this because He tells us this through the written scriptures that this faith was delivered once for all delivered to the saints. There isn't any more necessary. We have what we need.

I mean this kindly, but why are you on a Charismatic forum? This quote clearly goes against basic charismatic beliefs. In fact, I read something not unlike it in a thread on a Puritan Forum I occasionally browse (but don't participate in in order to honour the house rules). The thread was discussing the falsity of charismatic beliefs (they are practically all cessationists on the board). It's also a key cessationist argument against the 1 Corinthians 14 practice of receiving and sharing new prophetic revelations (and rhema words.)

 

[Faulty]

I mean this kindly, but why are you on a Charismatic forum? This quote clearly goes against basic charismatic beliefs. In fact, I read something not unlike it in a thread on a Puritan Forum I occasionally browse (but don't participate in in order to honour the house rules). The thread was discussing the falsity of charismatic beliefs (they are practically all cessationists on the board). It's also a key cessationist argument against the 1 Corinthians 14 practice of receiving and sharing new prophetic revelations (and rhema words.)

Saying the scriptures is everything we need isn't the same thing as saying signs and miracles have stopped. In fact, they aren't even related to each other.

If you never received anything else "extra" from God from this point forward, you would still have everything you need.

 

[probinson]

In the OP, K2K was actually saying something quite beautiful and something that will deepen a relationship with the Lord. It's a shame we leap to argue over points rather than try to receive the overall truth that is being said.

It is a shame. The OP is advocating a relationship with God on a Charismatic forum and finding much opposition to the idea that God speaks to us today. Sad.

We could explore avenues together rather than walk in constant suspicion. Nobody has said the Bible isn't inspired or said anything disparaging about it;

True enough. Unfortunately, that won't stop people from bearing false witness against the OP.

That's one of the main reasons I think so many people find it so discouraging to attempt to discuss things on this forum.

 

[Alive_Again]

I don't want to make this sound like a hammer against Karl. I'm sure he is a brother who wants people to listen to the Lord. It is important to point out that seeking God in the written Word is not of itself misguided. The Holy Spirit confirms the Word and even draws us to that Word. It is not amiss to call it the (written) Word. We do not just live our life based on principles. We follow the Spirit and in whatever measure of revelation that we have, we endeavor to walk in it. We seek additional revelation while reading the written Word, with the intent of following it. With the intent of being renewed, conformed and transformed even by hearing it with the spiritual ear. With the hope of God quickening it and feeding us, in a manner you really only receive from the written Word (with the Spirit).

I believe this demonstrates the problem. This all starts well enough. Listening to God (the Word) and walking with Him in a relationship.

If you know Him you'll listen to Him.

If you were truly listening to Him you would want others to know they too can listen to Him!!

You get to know a perons by listening to what He has to say to you personall...

...that Jesus Christ is our Lord becauase He is walking with us and talking with us, and giving us instructions.

We know all of this, and this is part of the preaching. You can know the Lord. It's part of the New Covenant from the least to the greatest.

If it stopped there, that would be great... He assumes that the Spirit of God is not with us in our "searching the scriptures". If we have a seeker's heart, He will be. Also, that we walk with Him.

If you want the Spirit of God to bless you instead of being cursed, preach hearing Him the Word of God by faith...

Reading a book doesn' mean you know the author. Nor does seeing a movie mean you know the director. So we tell people that they have to get to know Him, which means having conversions with Him.

Reading the Scriptures is not hearing with your spiritual ears. The Spirit can talk to you while reading the Scriptures, but will you listen?

He is the Word of God that speaks to you via the Spirit of God. But He does not speak to you through the Scriptures but throught the Spirit of God.

I live by what the Scriptures say - no maybe I should live by what the Lord says

The Scriptures impart something to me - or maybe it's the Lord that imparts things to me

The Scirptures are our frim foundation - or is it the Lord that is our frim foundation?

How much better would it be for you and for everyone else if we really made Him Lord of our life and not just Lord of our Bible?

If you honest think the Scirptures speak, who are making an idol out of the Scriptures. You are acting just like the Jews who thought that searching the Scriptures gave them life.

f you think the the Lord speaks through the Scriptures instead of speaking through the Holy Spirit, you will only be looking to hear from Him about what is written in the Scriptures.

The problem is that many others are leading people to think that the Holy Spirit only checks in while they are reading their Bible. And this has had a terrible effect on others.

Thinking that the impartation is from the Scriptures and not God is making the Scriptures your god!

Then we assume that loving the scriptures as the written Word of God is something horribly amis!

The preacher, even one that knows the Lord, who raises the Scriptures up over their head stating "I am going to preach the Word of God" meaning the Scriptures is confussed. He is being blown around (being disturbed) by spirits (demons) trying to distort the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Scriptures are not another gospel, but preaching the Scriptures instead of using the Scriptures to preach Jesus Christ is preaching another gospel!!

Do you not know that what you lift up over your head (spiritually speaking) is your god?

Someone else said: The Law/Scriptures were started by the fact that people would rather read or listen to others rather than the Lord .
The same is more today than then . "What does the 'bible' say about this ?" "What did the preacher say ?" It is the all the same .

(Which you heartily agreed to.)

We do not preach the Scriptures (the Word), we preach the Lord (the Word).

If you want to honor the GREAT I AM, do what He says. Doing what "He said" is not believing He is the GREAT I AM, but rather the Great I was.

It is not about what *was* spoken but what He *is* speaking now to the individual . It is not about writings of which we no longer have the originals to verify authenticity but about a personal message . And , how many people are living off bread made thousands of years ago ?

Their is a proper regard of the scriptures, or the wirtten Word of God, and the learning and preaching of it.

I said: The Lord said to teach men all things that I have commanded you.

Is that what you are after? Are you trying to hook other people up with Him or with you?

The proper perspective in the freedom of seeking God's ways in the scripture.

...Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation... 2 Peter 1:20 (KJV)
...think that the scripture saith in vain... James 4:4-5 (KJV)
...the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Tim 3:15 (KJV)
...unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; John 10:35 (KJV)
...Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. Matt 22:29 (KJV)
...Apollos, ...mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. Acts 18:24 (KJV)

The idea that "the word" means "Scriptures" only leads back to the idea that the Law brings righteousness and salvation .

I'd like to agree with Karl on the good points of what he says. There IS an imbalance that needs to be corrected. It is the Word and Spirit. I've noticed that the Word and the Spirit, although they agree are not the same. Feeding on the Word (by means of the written Word) is different than being filled with the Holy Spirit. It is a different experience. There is a nourishment.

If the meat is to do His will, then is not seeking to find to do His will and to line up with His ways lead to a partaking of that very meat. Although the doing is a lot more than reading, the seeking in the written Word of the living Word is a righteous pursuit, not to be condemned or made to be thought of as idolatrous.

 

[Faulty]

It is a shame. The OP is advocating a relationship with God on a Charismatic forum and finding much opposition to the idea that God speaks to us today. Sad.

Actually, the opposition is that God's written word does not take a backseat to anything. Your portrayal isn't accurate.

True enough. Unfortunately, that won't stop people from bearing false witness against the OP.

What has been false exactly? Can you prove something as a 'false witness' here, or is being a 'false witness' something you are doing with this accusation?

 

[dkbwarrior]

It is a shame. The OP is advocating a relationship with God on a Charismatic forum and finding much opposition to the idea that God speaks to us today. Sad.

With respect Probison, (and I do respect you), who has said that God does not speak to us today? I certainly haven't, have I missed something that somebody else has said? And if no one has said this, then isn't your accusation here really the only false witness? (I'm thinking that mabey you haven't really read the thread to closely and are speaking from lack of knowledge of everything that has been said???)

I certainly believe God speaks to us today, both through revelation of the written Word of God, through inward impression, and through prophetic utterances. However, both the inward impression, and the prophetic voice are subject to the living written Word fo God.

True enough. Unfortunately, that won't stop people from bearing false witness against the OP.

That's one of the main reasons I think so many people find it so discouraging to attempt to discuss things on this forum.

What false witness has been borne? Please reference for me. I for one have been making only two points:

1. The Opening Poster has said in repeated posts that the scriptures are not the Word of God. I disagree.
2. The Opening Poster has also said in repeated posts that the scriptures are not alive. I disagree.

How either of these points is a false witness is beyond me. In addition, throughout this thread, the Opening Poster has implied over and over that those of us that study the scriptures as our primary source to know Him are not in relationship with Him at all, but are idolizing a book. And has repeatedly tongue in cheek used the statement of Jesus "Why can you not understand what I am saying" as though those of us that do believe that the scriptures are the written Word of God, and believe that the written Word of God is alive, are not able to descern the voice of God.

I have purposely not allowed myself to respond in kind, and accuse him of not hearing God, (though I have been tempted), as I am certain He does hear from God, just as I do, though we disagree on the role of the scripture. However, if there is any false witness here, I would say that his inference that those of us who look to revelation of the scriptures by the Holy Ghost as our primary source of revelation of the Father are worshipping a book would be more along the lines of a false witness than my belief that the scriptures are the Word of God and that they are alive.

Peace...

 

[dkbwarrior]

In the OP, K2K was actually saying something quite beautiful and something that will deepen a relationship with the Lord.
Clearly, Scripture is "sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart" - and I love it. It is powerful, and God speaks to us through it as the Spirit explains it to us (because the carnal mind can't understand it).

I am not sure if you have fully read this thread AA. I agree with your sentiment above, but the OP would not, because the OP does not believe that the scriptures are the Word of God, which is why we are having this discussion in the first place.

What I am discussing with the OP is his contention that the scriptures are not the Word of God, and his contention that they are not alive. To fully quote the verse you give above:

12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
-Hebrews 4:12

According to the OP this is not referring to the scriptures at all, as you state that it is, and is one of the main reasons for our debate. The OP is inferring an entirely different look at the scriptures than you or I or the charismatic movement as a whole, or heterodox theology for that matter hold too. That is why I am discussing the issue.

Peace...

 

[probinson]

What has been false exactly? Can you prove something as a 'false witness' here, or is being a 'false witness' something you are doing with this accusation?

Since you asked for proof, here's one post containing three false witnesses, all made by you, in just two paragraphs no less;

You have an inherent problem. You expect people to believe that you follow what you say the Lord is speaking to you today, but (1) you repeatedly despise what we know for sure the Lord already said, and when asked, you use (2) the scriptures you denigrate to bolster your claims for following that voice.

There is no reason for anyone to believe that you respect a 'today' word, when (3) you do not respect a word which is written. They don't go together. At best, one could say you appear to think the words of God have a shelf-life, that they tend to go stale over time, and "fresh" words are needed to sustain the believer, and if that's so, you can't rightly quote any scripture as authoritative with any credibility whatsoever. ​

AudioArtist tried to say it nicely in his post;

"...Nobody has said the Bible isn't inspired or said anything disparaging about it..."
​

I would agree. You are bearing false witness against the OP, saying that he "despises" the written Word, that he is "denigrating" it and "not respecting" it, but that's not the least bit true. In fact, the OP himself said;

"...Truly the one thing necessary is listening to Him. The first words He told me were, "Read Your Bible", so I'd be surprised to find out that He didn't tell all those capable of reading and having access to a Bible to read it...

"...So think (meditate) about Him, operate in the gifts, read and study your Bible, but understand clearly that only one thing is truly needed and that is listening to Him like Mary was doing...
​

These are not the words of a person who "despises", "denigrates" or disrespects the Bible.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Since you asked for proof, here's one post containing three false witnesses, all made by you, in just two paragraphs no less;

You have an inherent problem. You expect people to believe that you follow what you say the Lord is speaking to you today, but (1) you repeatedly despise what we know for sure the Lord already said, and when asked, you use (2) the scriptures you denigrate to bolster your claims for following that voice.

There is no reason for anyone to believe that you respect a 'today' word, when (3) you do not respect a word which is written. They don't go together. At best, one could say you appear to think the words of God have a shelf-life, that they tend to go stale over time, and "fresh" words are needed to sustain the believer, and if that's so, you can't rightly quote any scripture as authoritative with any credibility whatsoever.
​

AudioArtist tried to say it nicely in his post;

"...Nobody has said the Bible isn't inspired or said anything disparaging about it..."
​

I would agree. You are bearing false witness against the OP, saying that he "despises" the written Word, that he is "denigrating" it and "not respecting" it, but that's not the least bit true. In fact, the OP himself said;

"...Truly the one thing necessary is listening to Him. The first words He told me were, "Read Your Bible", so I'd be surprised to find out that He didn't tell all those capable of reading and having access to a Bible to read it...

"...So think (meditate) about Him, operate in the gifts, read and study your Bible, but understand clearly that only one thing is truly needed and that is listening to Him like Mary was doing...
​

These are not the words of a person who "despises", "denigrates" or disrespects the Bible.

I guess this would be a matter of perspective Probison. I knew what he meant when he said it. I guess it would have been nicer if he had changed out the adjectives "depsise" and "denigrate" to "hold in less esteem than I or heterodox christian theology does", or something along those lines.

(Am I really defending Faulty here?)

However, in my mind it was simply tit for tat, as the OP has been making statements implying that those who believe that the scriptures are the Word of God and that they are alive are not hearing God, or are not in relationship with God, or are idolizing a book. I have tried not to respond in kind, but it did not suprise me when someone did finally. From the persective of one who believes that the scriptures are the Word of God and alive, the OP's viewpoint might well be viewed as "denigrating" in comparison. I don't think subjective adjectives a false witness make. After all, adjectives reflect an opinion, and opinions are subjective. I don't see how an opinion qualifies as a false witness. That is why, in a court of law, such adjectives would be challenged and struck from the record, because of the fact that they are subjective, and not factual. Therefore they would never rise to the level of a false witness in any case.

Peace...

 

[Alive_Again]

I suppose the most distasteful thing of all in this whole thread is the idea (not the practice) that we are putting hearing the Lord in our walks, apart from the scripture on a lower plane than seeking and hearing from Him in the written Word.

In many threads on the forum, people throw about terms like "sola scriptura" as though it is the only source of our revelation.

The correct terminology (IMO), is the "Word and the Spirit". The Bible is a closed book without the Spirit of God.

It is much like using the word "tradition" in a spiteful way. It all depends on the tradition. It is the tradition of many charismatic churches to elevate the testimonies of God. It was the same in the Jewish culture. That is a good tradition.

It is also distasteful to assume that though we "search the scriptures" that we assume that the letter alone gives life, when as seeking Christians the Spirit of God quickens the Word and His Words become life. We are not as the example provided where Jesus rebuked the Jews who did not come to Him.

The Bereans (almost hate to use the term because many so called "Bereans" often do not perceive the move of the Spirit and are quick to label many anointed men false prophets) searched the scriptures to verify and confirm what is a solid foundation of understanding.

It is a worthwhile pursuit to reason from the scriptures themselves that God refers to the scriptures as the "Word of God" (howbeit the written Word). We learn the scriptures better as we have examined what is said and why or how it does not support statements that are made. It would be better to refine our delivery in true meekness and patience (even though we despise what is sweet in our life as being compared to idolatry.

On an number of occasions I thought to go back to what I had said earlier thinking that I may have said the wrong thing as a reaction, but in reading it, it seemed very reasonable and balanced.

 

[probinson]

With respect Probison, (and I do respect you), who has said that God does not speak to us today? I certainly haven't, have I missed something that somebody else has said?

It has been directly stated in this thread that the scriptures are "everything we need" (here). The scripture used to support this idea is;

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (NIV)
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
​

What these scriptures say is that all scripture is inspired and useful. What these scriptures do not say is that scripture is the only thing we need.

And if no one has said this, then isn't your accusation here really the only false witness? (I'm thinking that mabey you haven't really read the thread to closely and are speaking from lack of knowledge of everything that has been said???)

I've read the thread. I honestly think you're talking past each other.

I certainly believe God speaks to us today, both through revelation of the written Word of God, through inward impression, and through prophetic utterances. However, both the inward impression, and the prophetic voice are subject to the living written Word fo God.

No argument here.

What false witness has been borne? Please reference for me.

Done. See my last post.

I for one have been making only two points:

The Opening Poster has said in repeated posts that the scriptures are not the Word of God. I disagree.
​

And I don't think you're hearing him fully. What I hear him saying is that the scriptures, in and of themselves, are not the "Word of God". Jesus is the Word of God. He is the One the scriptures speak of, the one that gives life to the words on the page, the one that quickens us and reveals to us the Truths contained in the inspired, written Word.

The Opening Poster has also said in repeated posts that the scriptures are not alive. I disagree.

Again, I don't think you're hearing the OP fully. The scriptures, in and of themselves, are not alive. Jesus talked of those who studied scripture "diligently", yet it didn't profit them one bit. Does that mean that scriptures are unprofitable? Of course not, but it does go to illustrate that scriptures can be absent the life and power, or rather, the power and life that the scriptures have can sit dormant to a person.

How either of these points is a false witness is beyond me.

See my last post.

In addition, throughout this thread, the Opening Poster has implied over and over that those of us that study the scriptures as our primary source to know Him are not in relationship with Him at all, but are idolizing a book.

No, I don't think he has. I think the OP is simply pointing out that the Bible is a book, and it is God who makes those Words inspired.

And has repeatedly tongue in cheek used the statement of Jesus "Why can you not understand what I am saying" as though those of us that do believe that the scriptures are the written Word of God, and believe that the written Word of God is alive, are not able to descern the voice of God.

To be quite honest, I don't know why you can't understand what he's saying either. Like AudioArtist, I saw the general Truth contained in the OP;

In the OP, K2K was actually saying something quite beautiful and something that will deepen a relationship with the Lord.

All of us have read the same things, yet some people take offense, while others saw something beautiful that will help our relationship with God. I agree with AudioArtist. Maybe it's just as important as to how we receive something vs. what is said...

I have purposely not allowed myself to respond in kind, and accuse him of not hearing God, (though I have been tempted), as I am certain He does hear from God, just as I do, though we disagree on the role of the scripture.

I really don't think you do, at least not as much as you seem to believe so. I'm not the OP, so I don't know, but most of what I've read from him does not lead me to believe that he in any way disparages the Bible.

However, if there is any false witness here, I would say that his inference that those of us who look to revelation of the scriptures by the Holy Ghost

See! You just affirmed what the OP has been saying all along! You didn't just say "those of us who read scriptures". You said, "those of us who look to revelation of the scriptures by the Holy Ghost." That's what I've heard the OP saying all along, and that's why I said it sounds to me like you're talking past each other.

 

[probinson]

I don't think subjective adjectives a false witness make. After all, adjectives reflect an opinion, and opinions are subjective. I don't see how an opinion qualifies as a false witness. That is why, in a court of law, such adjectives would be challenged and struck from the record, because of the fact that they are subjective, and not factual. Therefore they would never rise to the level of a false witness in any case.

If you say so.

If you think it's OK to say someone is "despising" (i.e. feeling contempt and deep repugnance for) scripture when they are clearly not because it would be an OK opinion in a court of law, then so be it.

Personally, I don't think that the inspired, written word of God uses the US justice system's methods for determining what is and is not a "false witness", but that's just my opinion.

 

[dkbwarrior]

If you say so.

If you think it's OK to say someone is "despising" (i.e. feeling contempt and deep repugnance for) scripture when they are clearly not because it would be an OK opinion in a court of law, then so be it.

Personally, I don't think that the inspired, written word of God uses the US justice system's methods for determining what is and is not a "false witness", but that's just my opinion.

I didn't say it would be admissable, I said it would be inadmissable. Nor did I imply that God uses the US justice system's methods. I was simply stating that adjectives describing a persons feelings about what someone does are subjective, and are not allowed in a court of law for that reason; because they are not witnessing facts, but ones opinions. An opinion is not a false witness, just because it disagrees with your opinion.

Mabey that is why we are miscommunicating? You are not fully reading what I am writing?

Peace...

 

[Alive_Again]

I think the OP is simply pointing out that the Bible is a book, and it is God who makes those Words inspired.

If only the general truth was said. It went way beyond that though, and to preach that the expectation of the prophetic voice as the primary way of following or hearing God is misguided.

An even briefer perspective is given here...

...Reading the Scriptures is not hearing with your spiritual ears.
...will you listen?

This presumes that your "ears are off". Why?

...But He does not speak to you through the Scriptures but through the Spirit of God.

We know that the Spirit of God makes the written Word real to us.

...if we really made Him Lord of our life and not just Lord of our Bible?

Another assumption that we are not.

...the Scirptures speak, who are making an idol out of the Scriptures.
...Thinking that the impartation is from the Scriptures and not God
...making the Scriptures your god!

Catch my drift? We honor the testimony of God. His Spirit makes it real to us whether we're in the written Word or "listening" to the many ways He speaks to us.

...I am going to preach the Word of God" meaning the Scriptures
...He is being blown around (being disturbed) by spirits (demons)

Sad indeed! How about, "I'm going to declare what God has said", giving Him something to agree with.

...preaching the Scriptures instead of using the Scriptures to preach Jesus Christ is preaching another gospel!!

OK, who are we preaching here? Why assume we're not preaching Jesus?

...what you lift up over your head (spiritually speaking) is your god?

...We do not preach the Scriptures (the Word)
...we preach the Lord (the Word).

Doing what "He said" is not believing...but rather the Great I was.

We do preach the scriptures, we don't make the book our God, we do what He has said AND is saying. Since He doesn't speak in the prophetic voice all of the time (go ahead and admit it), then doing what He said is honoring Him.

...It is not about what *was* spoken but what He *is* speaking now to the individual .
...how many people are living off bread made thousands of years ago ?

He IS speaking what has already been said. His speaking is not confined to a "voice" as our minds would like it to be. His Word is for us today. Meditating in the scriptures WAS and IS a command that was given by the Spirit and doing this coupled with doing the scripture (in the ability He provides) makes your way prosperous.

I think it's all been said. The question is, can the OP recognize that the scriptures are the written Word of God? Will he recognize that seeking Him in the scriptures is a valid pursuit? Will he lay down the mindset that this is the only way some choose to seek and know God? The mindset that honoring the ways of God as revealed in the scriptures is making the Bible an idol? That you can preach Jesus as you preach the scriptures? That meditating in the scriptures (as a seeker) produces faith (which comes by hearing)? Will the OP acknowledge this?

It's all been demonstrated and the Lord has shown MANY times to us personally to do these things. I can do so in faith and not waver.

 

[dkbwarrior]

It has been directly stated in this thread that the scriptures are "everything we need" (here). The scripture used to support this idea is;

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (NIV)
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
​

What these scriptures say is that all scripture is inspired and useful. What these scriptures do not say is that scripture is the only thing we need.

Okay, but I didn't take him to mean what he said in the fashion that you did. But, he will have to speak for hmiself on that.

I've read the thread. I honestly think you're talking past each other.

That is what I thought at first. But as I tried to nail him down more specifically to see if that was the case, he repeatedly said that the scriptures are not the Word of God, and that they are not alive.

And I don't think you're hearing him fully. What I hear him saying is that the scriptures, in and of themselves, are not the "Word of God". Jesus is the Word of God. He is the One the scriptures speak of, the one that gives life to the words on the page, the one that quickens us and reveals to us the Truths contained in the inspired, written Word.

I disagree. The scriptures, in and of themselves, are the Word of God. And as I stated before:

Nobody in this thread believes that the ink and paper is the Word of God, rather, the knowledge that it contains, the information that the words convey, the data contained therein, is the Word of God.
​

Again, I don't think you're hearing the OP fully. The scriptures, in and of themselves, are not alive. Jesus talked of those who studied scripture "diligently", yet it didn't profit them one bit. Does that mean that scriptures are unprofitable? Of course not, but it does go to illustrate that scriptures can be absent the life and power, or rather, the power and life that the scriptures have can sit dormant to a person.

Well, now, these are two very different things Probison. Saying the scriptures are not alive is different than saying the scriptures are not alive in me, yet they live. I agree with the latter, but not the former. I am confident that the OP would agree with the former, but not the latter. The scriptures are a record of things God has said, they are His Word, they are always alive. As I also asked before:

Gods Words don't die when they leave His lips. They are just as alive today as the day that He spoke them. That is why we can read them and receive revelation. Because they are alive. I like what Kenneth Hagin said, "Some poeple say that the scriptures have to be quickened; but I say, they are already alive."

​

I further posited this, which was never answered by the OP:

I have a question for you, if the written Word of God is not alive, when did it die? How much time must elapse after God speaks before His Words die? Once someone writes them down? Is that when they die? And if they don't die, then how can you say that the scripture is not alive?

​

Now, I agree that my understanding has to be enlightened or quickened, in order for them to be profitable to me. But Gods Words do not have to be quickened to be alive, they already are.

Saying that the scriptures are not alive, because one can read them and receive nothing, is poor logic. Do we then have to judge Jesus as not being alive also, because many that heard Him received nothing? In fact, many heard Him then turned right around and crucified Him. No, it is not the Word that is dead, is is our understanding that often is. Both the Word made flesh, and the written Word are fully alive and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword.

I think the most important point is the following:

The scriptures and the person of Jesus are not the same thing, yet they are. Just as a seed is not a full grown tree, yet it contains all the information of the full grown tree. Both the seed and the tree have life. The life in the seed however is dormant until released; while the life in the tree is active. Jesus said the Word is a seed, and it is. The sower soweth the seed of the Word of God. That seed was planted in the womb of Mary and grew into the person that we call Jesus. The seed of the spoken Word/written Word became the person. Jesus grew in wisdom through revelation of the written Word of God by the Father, just as we are to do. He found Himself in the written Word of God, the scriptures.

​

You said above that Jesus gives life to the written Word. I understand that what you actually mean by that is Jesus enlightens or quickens my understanding to receive it. However, it would be more correct to say that it is the Spirit that quickens us to receive understanding of the spoken/written Word of God. It is the spoken/written Word of God that gave life to Jesus. Gods spoken Word was the seed that birthed the Messiah. That spoken Word was written down in the form of scriptures. But those words of God are still alive today, in fact they will never die. They are life eternal, He is life eternal.

It would be fair to say, in a nutshell, that the scriptures are the seed that begat Jesus. Therfore they are both "Him". One is Him in the form of information, (data), while the other is "Him" in the form of revelation, (personal relationship).

You said, "those of us who look to revelation of the scriptures by the Holy Ghost." That's what I've heard the OP saying all along, and that's why I said it sounds to me like you're talking past each other.

Then we're all good.

Peace...

 

[probinson]

I didn't say it would be admissable, I said it would be inadmissable. Nor did I imply that God uses the US justice system's methods. I was simply stating that adjectives describing a persons feelings about what someone does are subjective, and are not allowed in a court of law for that reason; because they are not witnessing facts, but ones opinions. An opinion is not a false witness, just because it disagrees with your opinion.

Let me come at this from a different angle.

The statement made was that the OP despised scripture. You say this is an "opinion", and therefore it is not a false witness.

What if someone were to make the statement, "dkbwarrior despises God." Their opinion, or a false witness against you?

 

[probinson]

I disagree. The scriptures, in and of themselves, are the Word of God. And as I stated before:

Nobody in this thread believes that the ink and paper is the Word of God, rather, the knowledge that it contains, the information that the words convey, the data contained therein, is the Word of God.
​

Well, now, these are two very different things Probison. Saying the scriptures are not alive is different than saying the scriptures are not alive in me. I agree with the latter, but not the former. I am confident that the OP would agree with the former, but not the latter. The scriptures are the written Word of God, they are always alive. As I also said before:

Gods Words don't die when they leave His lips. They are just as alive today as the day that He spoke them. That is why we can read them and receive revelation. Because they are alive. I like what Kenneth Hagin said, "Some poeple say that the scriptures have to be quickened; but I say, they are already alive."

​

I further posited this, which was never answered by the OP:

I have a question for you, if the written Word of God is not alive, when did it die? How much time must elapse after God speaks before His Words die? Once someone writes them down? Is that when they die? And if they don't die, then how can you say that the scripture is not alive?
​

Now, I agree that my understanding has to be enlightened or quickened, in order for them to be profitable to me. But Gods Words do not have to be quickened to be alive, they already are.

Saying that the scriptures are not alive, because one can read them and receive nothing, is poor logic. Do we then have to judge Jesus as not being alive also, because many that heard Him received nothing? In fact, many heard Him then turned right around and crucified Him. No, it is not the Word that is dead, is is our understanding that often is. Both the Word made flesh, and the written Word are fully alive and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword.

I think the most important point is the following:

The scriptures and the person of Jesus are not the same thing, yet they are. Just as a seed is not a full grown tree, yet it contains all the information of the full grown tree. Both the seed and the tree have life. The life in the seed however is dormant until released; while the life in the tree is active. Jesus said the Word is a seed, and it is. The sower soweth the seed of the Word of God. That seed was planted in the womb of Mary and grew into the person that we call Jesus. The seed of the spoken Word/written Word became the person. Jesus grew in wisdom through revelation of the written Word of God by the Father, just as we are to do. He found Himself in the written Word of God, the scriptures.

​

You said above that Jesus gives life to the written Word. I understand that what you actually mean by that is Jesus enlightens or quickens my understanding to receive it. However, it would be more correct to say that it is the Spirit that quickens us to receive understanding of the spoken/written Word of God. It is the spoken/written Word of God that gave life to Jesus. Gods spoken Word was the seed that birthed the Messiah. That spoken Word was written down in the form of scriptures. But those words of God are still alive.

IMO, I think you're all playing a game of semantics and straining at gnats while dismissing the Truths the others bring to the table.

I suppose it's all in how we perceive what is being said.

I'll go back to lurking in the corner now.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Let me come at this from a different angle.

The statement made was that the OP despised scripture. You say this is an "opinion", and therefore it is not a false witness.

What if someone were to make the statement, "dkbwarrior despises God." Their opinion, or a false witness against you?

This would be a subjective statement. For those who believe that I am in a cult called WOF, this would certainly be true from their perspective. Or to a Muslim, or a Mormon, or a JW, subjectively true.

It wouldn't neccesarily be a false witness, though it would be a little mean and too personal.

IMO, I think you're all playing a game of semantics and straining at gnats while dismissing the Truths the others bring to the table.

I suppose it's all in how we perceive what is being said.

True, it certainly is. Mabey I am straining at gnats, it certainly wouldn't be the first time for me, (nor you either)...

Peace...

 

[Alive_Again]

IMO, I think you're all playing a game of semantics and straining at gnats while dismissing the Truths the others bring to the table.

I'd like to take with this thread the reminder that we do hear from God, not just in the scriptures. That He wants us to be more and more expectant.

When I was very young in the Lord, someone in a leadership position (very gifted) used to strongly advocate the position that unless Jesus spoke in a discernible voice, that we weren't really led of God. (I'm sure he'd argue the wording, but that was the gist.) At that time, I was not even aware if I had EVER heard the prophetic voice of the Lord. So a lot of frustration and head banging was going on by me.

Also, he used to get a list of scriptures by word of knowledge (including chapter and verse) of what to read in the Bible. That these were really only the true ways to follow God and that my intense (God given) desire to read the written Word was intellectualism.

I used to feel as a result, that my desire to delve deep into the Word was a guilty pursuit and the Lord gave me a dream that He Himself was in! The anxiety and uncertainly kind of promoted a form of intellectualism because I was going to get into the Word no matter what! Even my flesh wanted the Word.

To add to the confusion, a book called "The Seduction of Christianity" came out that openly dissed many teachers I was partaking of as being "new age" and of seducing spirits. Quite to the contrary, I was getting fed mightily in these teachings, yet this person was greatly anointed (and usually right) and he bought into the Hunt book (with the hook). The resulting fruit was that I'd excitedly come forward with something I was getting from the Holy Spirit, he'd express his concern, shake his head, and blame the warfare problems I was having on these "seducing spirits".

Thank God that the Lord confirmed what He had been sharing with me, let me know that others don't have the revelation I was getting (not that I was sharper, I was just getting this revelation). It was ok to get into the scriptures and get into them deeply and to not be anxious or to feel guilty about it. Doing this promoted the natural man to rise up and choke the Word inside me. I was also to live a more balanced life with prayer and worship too. These things promote walking in the Spirit, where the Word is where we all want it to be.

So discussions like these take me back to a misunderstanding of a sole reliance on the Spirit of God without the Word of God (which He also quickens). It's not the same and the one compliments the other.

Promoting the lack of balance causes division (certainly evident here) and leads to arguments about definitions of words and a misjudging of others' intents.

I'm fully prepared to leave this discussion with the awareness described in the first paragraph and be at peace with the understanding that the Holy Spirit and the written Word of God work together and the preaching of the same under the anointing brings the full counsel of God without any confusion or idolatry.

 

[probinson]

Mabey I am straining at gnats, it certainly wouldn't be the first time for me, (nor you either)...

Who me?