The Democratic Safe House

[Deviant Writer]

It is funny watching a conversation between a lawyer (who knows law) and those who think they care about the Constitution.

 

[stamperben]

It is funny watching a conversation between a lawyer (who knows law) and those who think they care about the Constitution.

Indeed it is. I've had issues with that member of the bar in the past (and present), but when he's right it's right on.

 

[stamperben]

I just got an email from the Clinton campaign offering a chance at having my name drawn to have dinner with her to discuss who I am and what's on my mind. (Where on earth they got my email from I don't know. Hacking into Bernie's site?) Anyway, I entered and if by chance my name is drawn I will wear my Sanders hoody sweatshirt that is on the way.

 

[stamperben]

I heard on the news this morning that during the "debate" last night the biggest hits on Twitter were the ones to the Sanders site!
The Dems won!

 

[Willtor]

I heard on the news this morning that during the "debate" last night the biggest hits on Twitter were the ones to the Sanders site!
The Dems won!

Noice!

 

[Gnarwhal]

Is anyone in this thread actually interested in voting for Hillary? I'm personally voting for Sanders, but I'm so curious to see actual polling data, not the stuff that's misrepresented in the media.

A friend of mine shared this on CBS, how they misrepresented poll numbers (they're flip-flopped from the actual Harvard poll)

(Scroll to slide #4 on the PDF)
http://www.iop.harvard.edu/sites/default/files_new/pictures/151208_Harvard IOP Fall 2015 Report.pdf

 

[Willtor]

Basically everybody who votes Democrat that I know likes Sanders and tolerates or dislikes Clinton. Also, online, it seems like all of the love goes to Bernie.

However, my sample is absurdly biased. Most of the people with whom I interact are in the tech community, and of those, most are young (20-somethings). Probably, the same kinds of biases exist online. I don't doubt there are a lot of people out there who want Clinton -- particularly older people (who vote in large numbers).

I suspect that a big part of the appeal that Clinton provides is her foreign policy experience and connections. She knows all of the key players, personally, and has nuanced perspectives on the various situations. That doesn't make her good (full disclosure, inasmuch as I think she's far too hawkish, I do think this is one of her really strong points), but it makes her reliable. People are uncertain about ISIS, and she presents a known quantity. This is a particularly good selling point for people who are afraid of blustering ignoramuses like Trump making things worse.

For a less politically-charged analogy, consider Hollywood. Why do they keep letting Michael Bay make movies? They're all the same: mediocre story, terrible writing, forgettable characters, poor-to-moderate performances from actors, weak, cliched dialogue, huge explosions, and amazing special effects. The answer is: He's a known quantity. You're never going to get a piece of art out of him. But if you back his movies, you'll make a profit. You can't say the same thing about an aspiring, but untried director who tells you he wants to make art and promises you it'll be profitable.

Hillary Clinton is Michael Bay. She isn't Quentin Tarantino, and people who like her aren't expecting her to be Quentin Tarantino. She's got her shtick, and her supporters find it adequate. Meanwhile, you have Bernie Sanders coming along saying, "I'm Quentin Tarantino -- I can make art, and I can make it profitable." Is he the Quentin Tarantino of foreign affairs? I'm a Sanders fan, and even I don't know. We've never seen his policies attempted. To me, he is appealing (particularly the fact that he's less quick to war). But I could appreciate for some people, uncertainty is frightening.

So, all that is to say, I suspect that Clinton has a lot more support than it might seem from looking online. This, even accepting the fact that the machine and the media want to crown her before the primaries.

 

[stamperben]

Is anyone in this thread actually interested in voting for Hillary? I'm personally voting for Sanders, but I'm so curious to see actual polling data, not the stuff that's misrepresented in the media.

A friend of mine shared this on CBS, how they misrepresented poll numbers (they're flip-flopped from the actual Harvard poll)
[snip]
(Scroll to slide #4 on the PDF)
http://www.iop.harvard.edu/sites/default/files_new/pictures/151208_Harvard IOP Fall 2015 Report.pdf

Primary vote: Sanders
General election: Whoever the Democrat is.
Of course I'd prefer Sanders for President. But a Bush/Trump/Cruz/Rubio or whoever ends up on top in the GOP as president scares the begeepers out of me. It should scare anyone who thinks with their brain. To risk a Republican president for a moment by suggesting that "I'm a purist, and if it's not Bernie I'm voting 3rd party" is to risk those principles that both you and I stand on, principles that will be legislated out of existence by a GOP sweep of all three branches.

I'm not a big fan of either of the two major political parties, just see my signature here. But I will work to ensure that those who are elected are ones I can work with to get progressive policies passed. I'm not going to take my ball and go home if I don't get exactly what I want. I'm an adult who knows the reality of the need for compromise, something you're not seeing on the far right wing side of the spectrum. We do not need to be like them.

 

[stamperben]

Any of The Three Are Fine with Me

 

[Arcangl86]

I never heard of O'Malley until a couple of months ago, but if it was a normal campaign session I would think he would be most electable. This year I don't think so because the frontrunners for the GOP are pretty radical and the democrats could probably run a yellow dog and win.

 

[stamperben]

O'Malley's biggest problem is how he did in Baltimore. Not very well.

 

[Willtor]

Any of The Three Are Fine with Me

I don't agree with this mentality. I don't think the country is actually headed in a good, progressive direction, as the author believes. Clinton will continue the current trajectory which can only be said to be "less bad" than what any of the Republicans will do. Certainly, if we have Clinton vs. Trump, we can't let Trump win. That's terrifying. We have to vote for Clinton. But it doesn't make her "fine." This is what the Democrats are doing. Because Trump (and Cruz and Rubio) is so bad, the Dems can get away with murder because even murder so much "less bad" than him.

 

[Arcangl86]

I don't agree with this mentality. I don't think the country is actually headed in a good, progressive direction, as the author believes. Clinton will continue the current trajectory which can only be said to be "less bad" than what any of the Republicans will do. Certainly, if we have Clinton vs. Trump, we can't let Trump win. That's terrifying. We have to vote for Clinton. But it doesn't make her "fine." This is what the Democrats are doing. Because Trump (and Cruz and Rubio) is so bad, the Dems can get away with murder because even murder so much "less bad" than him.

Honestly it's not just the Democrats. It's also the media and the Republicans. They are all working off the assumption that Hillary is going be the next nominee, so it's hard for anybody else to really gain any momentum.

 

[Willtor]

Honestly it's not just the Democrats. It's also the media and the Republicans. They are all working off the assumption that Hillary is going be the next nominee, so it's hard for anybody else to really gain any momentum.

This is true, of course. But the point that I want to drive home is that _we_, as progressives, have lowered our goals to call Clinton "fine" or "acceptable." If she wins the nomination, she's the alternative to Trump (or Cruz or Rubio). I wouldn't actually perceive her as anything more.

The author of the article is right in saying that 4 years of someone _more_ conservative than G.W. Bush is a nightmare scenario. That doesn't make a non-nightmare candidate "fine." It makes her the alternative to a nightmare candidate.

 

[stamperben]

I don't agree with this mentality. I don't think the country is actually headed in a good, progressive direction, as the author believes. Clinton will continue the current trajectory which can only be said to be "less bad" than what any of the Republicans will do. Certainly, if we have Clinton vs. Trump, we can't let Trump win. That's terrifying. We have to vote for Clinton. But it doesn't make her "fine." This is what the Democrats are doing. Because Trump (and Cruz and Rubio) is so bad, the Dems can get away with murder because even murder so much "less bad" than him.

At my age, and having had the pleasure of voting my conscience for many years in the past, I can say that "Less bad" is in fact LESS BAD. But it also means that I and other progressives CAN WORK with many of the more progressive Dems, but only if we do not keep our mouths shut. With a Clinton presidency you can be sure that Senator Sanders and those he caucuses with will hold her feet to the fire. I also hold no illusions that her big money backers won't also hold sway with her. But there's absolutely NO left wing push on any of the GOP's group. So yes, I'll take less bad, just as I've taken less bad for the past 7 years. I can see a populist movement coming up in the country. You see it with both Sanders and Trump's popularity. Yes, I said Trump is a sort of populist candidate.

 

[stamperben]

I was feeling all kinda worm and fuzzy after posting the Sinatra song. Then I clicked on a different thread...

Oh well, shoulda left well enough alone.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL! However you wish to celebrate.

 

[Arcangl86]

I've been thinking about the election and was wondering what the point was. At this point all we can do is damage control. I doubt anything will change for the better regardless of who is in the White House. So it's one of those things where I'm not voting for the people who I think would advance teh nation, but more trying to stop the other guys. That shouldn't be what voting is about.

 

[stamperben]

I've been thinking about the election and was wondering what the point was. At this point all we can do is damage control. I doubt anything will change for the better regardless of who is in the White House. So it's one of those things where I'm not voting for the people who I think would advance teh nation, but more trying to stop the other guys. That shouldn't be what voting is about.

No, it shouldn't be. That's what makes Bernie's call for political revolution so important. It is not the presidency alone that changes anything, we've seen that play out in the past 7 years with the obstructionist congress in place. It is only going to be if we, who describe ourselves as progressives or liberals or leftists, CONTINUE to be involved in each and EVERY election we have an opportunity to vote in, and vote for the most progressive of the choices presented. And that means battles on the primary front.

After talking about the importance of voting in the swing states the author below then goes on to say basically what I have been saying forever:

There are tactical considerations beyond the presidential election, however, and that’s what Sanders supporters should focus on after this campaign. Republicans are consistently losing national elections, but they do very well in congressional elections and at various state-level offices. Gerrymandering has a lot to do with this, but the problem is also turnout. Conservatives, in general, vote more than liberals and progressives, and that has to change. Recognizing this, Cooper writes:

“Therefore, for Sanders’ supporters, I suggest that the overriding electoral priority ought to be to continue to participate in the political system. Demonstrate that there is a bloc of votes out there for social democracy; tactics come second. Vote for the left-most candidate in the primaries, vote for the Working Families Party, vote for some single-issue candidate, or even try and get yourself elected to something.​

Read it all here at:

Bernie Sanders backers beware: It’s up to you to keep movement alive if Hillary Clinton takes primary

This is not a one time battle, I have been fighting the "good fight" for the majority of my 60 years, and it's not over, not by a long shot.

 

[cow451]

Merry Christmas to all and to all a Happy Holiday season.

 

[stamperben]

Merry Christmas to all and to all a Happy Holiday season.

Same to you cow. Now go buy a barbie.