The Delusions of Richard Dawkins

[Loudmouth]

Free will precludes objective proof of God, although the creation testifies of Him, and outward knowledge is intended to be a type to point us to eternal reality- which is God in Christ as the Spirit to mingle with our spirit. That alone is (subjective) proof of God: knowing Him organically by allowing Him to be one spirit with you. Satan believes in God. Many people state that they 'believe in God'. So what? Meaningless and doesn't change them from anyone else who doesn't believe in God. "As many as received Him, to them He gave authority to be sons of God". You need another life, a re-birth- in your Spirit. Its a free gift, but no one know the expiration date. amessageforthehumanrace

So I guess my parents took away my free will by making themselves obvious to everyone, including me. What they should have done is inspired several writers to write down rules that I was to follow, and then spend the rest of their lives hiding from me. That is what truly loving parents would do.

 

[pgardner31]

He has always referred to Himself (in both the O.T. & N.T.) as a husband in relation to His people. He wants a wife to express Him and to return His love. He doesn't want couch-potato lovers nor spiritual robots. That requires free-will faith, not coercion. The Bible is not a rule book, it is a love story- and God wants to be intimate (one spirit) and personal with as many as will respond to Him.
CHAPTER THREE
THE LOGIC OF IT ALL
I will do all my pleasure: ... I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it. (Isaiah 46:1011)
I. Divine Purpose
Granted the existence and reality of God, let us consider the following extremely relevant question: What would an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent being, knowing, having, and being capable of anything and everything, possibly want? The only possible thing that such a being would want would be an entity, perfectly complementary to Him, that was His of its own choice, and not out of necessity.
II. THE NECESSITY FOR A SECONDARY WILL
Obviously, if there existed only one will (God’s) in the universe, there would be no possible way for such a divine purpose to be realized, as all actions would necessarily be in response to that divine will. Therefore, it is absolutely essential to the attainment of such a divine purpose that there exist in addition to divine will a secondary, opposing will.
III. FREE WILL
It should be equally apparent that, in order for such a complementary entity to choose to belong to God, it must have an independent, free will.

 

[Loudmouth]

He has always referred to Himself (in both the O.T. & N.T.) as a husband in relation to His people.

Do husbands spend their entire lives hiding from their wives so it appears that they don't exist, just so they can preserve their wife's free will?

 

[pgardner31]

It is your free-will choice. To not choose to receive the free (free to us, God shed His own blood) gift of God in Christ as the Spirit is also a choice. If we choose to remain in the condition that we came into the world with, then the consequent result will be a judgment in righteousness.

 

[Loudmouth]

It is your free-will choice. To not choose to receive the free (free to us, God shed His own blood) gift of God in Christ as the Spirit is also a choice. If we choose to remain in the condition that we came into the world with, then the consequent result will be a judgment in righteousness.

How is this free-will choice taken away if God produces objective proof of his existence?

 

[Tomk80]

How is this free-will choice taken away if God produces objective proof of his existence?

In fact, how can one even speak of free will if it is not clear what the choices are.

 

[pgardner31]

How is this free-will choice taken away if God produces objective proof of his existence?

Has Christ returned, and I missed it? Or are you hearing voices. You can NOT empirically prove the existence of God, that would violate free will, leave no room for faith, and the Bible makes it clear that the spiritual things are invisible- at the present time.

 

[pgardner31]

In fact, how can one even speak of free will if it is not clear what the choices are.

'There is only one name under heaven in which is salvation" "As many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become sons of God." 'God shed His own blood" "In Him (Christ) dwells all of the fulness of the Godhead Bodily"
"Now the Lord is the Spirit" "There is a spirit in man" "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit" "The same Lord is rich unto all who call upon His name".

 

[HitchSlap]

'There is only one name under heaven in which is salvation" "As many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become sons of God." 'God shed His own blood" "In Him (Christ) dwells all of the fulness of the Godhead Bodily"
"Now the Lord is the Spirit" "There is a spirit in man" "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit" "The same Lord is rich unto all who call upon His name".

Is this from the BOM?

 

[TLK Valentine]

He has always referred to Himself (in both the O.T. & N.T.) as a husband in relation to His people. He wants a wife to express Him and to return His love.

Funny kind of love you got there...

Deuteronomy 7:1-4

When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Now, I don't know about your domestic situation, but I don't order my wife to kill anybody -- nor do I threaten to kill her if she refuses.

(Of course, part of the reason I don't do this might be because I'm not married, but that's hardly relevant now, is it?)

 

[pgardner31]

1. I said too much objective knowledge ABOUT God can easily interfere with subjective experience OF Him. I said nothing about it interfereing with free will. You cannot prove/disprove the Bible or God because doing so WOULD interfere with free will/faith. As to God's relationship and commands to His old testament people: 1. The most common and prevalent mistake unbelievers make is to create God in their own image, and to judge Him according to their finite, biased opinions. Sorry, God is ever-existing, and He is not going to make Himself imperfect just to suit you. 2. What you need to realize is that there is a spiritual war going on; and man no longer is an independent 3rd party. The independent human kingdom ended with the fall of Adam- which included all of his descendents. Man can only choose between receiving God in Christ as the Spirit into his human spirt, which gives him both eternal salvation and God's eternal life. If you do not actively choose Christ, then you passively remain in Satan's kingdom. The nations in Canaan were actively following Satan, and had to be dispossessed. If you read the word more closely, God always provided the option for 'the stranger' to be able to choose to become part of His people. The Jews were intended to be priests for God to the entire world, but they became proud and thougfht they were something special in themselves.

 

[Belk]

1. I said too much objective knowledge ABOUT God can easily interfere with subjective experience OF Him. I said nothing about it interfereing with free will. You cannot prove/disprove the Bible or God because doing so WOULD interfere with free will/faith. As to God's relationship and commands to His old testament people: 1. The most common and prevalent mistake unbelievers make is to create God in their own image, and to judge Him according to their finite, biased opinions. Sorry, God is ever-existing, and He is not going to make Himself imperfect just to suit you. 2. What you need to realize is that there is a spiritual war going on; and man no longer is an independent 3rd party. The independent human kingdom ended with the fall of Adam- which included all of his descendents. Man can only choose between receiving God in Christ as the Spirit into his human spirt, which gives him both eternal salvation and God's eternal life. If you do not actively choose Christ, then you passively remain in Satan's kingdom. The nations in Canaan were actively following Satan, and had to be dispossessed. If you read the word more closely, God always provided the option for 'the stranger' to be able to choose to become part of His people. The Jews were intended to be priests for God to the entire world, but they became proud and thougfht they were something special in themselves.

Funny, I see this from Christians here a lot. Oddly enough it is only when those "finite biased opinions" go against their own "finite biased opinions" that they seem to object to them. Apparently "finite biased opinions" is enough to deem him existent and "Good" but not good enough for anything else.

 

[pgardner31]

The fact is that every human being will meet the Lord. If it is only as a stranger, then the outcome might not be so pleasant. The closer we get to the end of this age, the more the fecal matter will have direct contact with the air moving unit. This is closely enough and accurately detailed enough such that even the most obstinate atheist will have doubts; and none will have excuse. If, at time of the last 3 1/2 years (the great tribulation) you still haven't received Christ, then at least do not follow the antichrist- and treat the jews and christians well. Then at least you will still have a shot at missing the lake of fire and having everlasting (NOT eternal) life. But you will never know God- Who is the reality of love- intimately, subjectively. Only outwardly, objectively. I tell you this NOT to try to convince you, but because I am obligated to tell you the facts. Read amessageforthehumanrace if you indeed are logical and objective.

 

[TLK Valentine]

The fact is that every human being will meet the Lord.

Actually that's the opinion.

If it is only as a stranger, then the outcome might not be so pleasant. The closer we get to the end of this age, the more the fecal matter will have direct contact with the air moving unit. This is closely enough and accurately detailed enough such that even the most obstinate atheist will have doubts; and none will have excuse.

And herein lies the problem with a religious belief based on fear -- it can only spread by fear.

Meaning that those who would seek to "evangelize" can only do it through fearmongering.

Unfortunately, they're not very good at it.