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The definition of sin

2PhiloVoid

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Being pro-abortion doesn't mean that you advocate the killing of every unborn child in the whole world. It obviously entails conditions. The Bible, clearly, is pro-abortion and anti-choice.

Have I worded this to your satisfaction? Can you finally concur?

I really like it when I see you concede to conditions/qualifications. So yes, by your standard, I'm apparently "pro-abortion," just barely. But even if that is the case, it is a highly conditional "pro-abortion" stance, a stance that most liberals in America would barely recognize as one they would count as "pro-abortion." Or am I just a conditional Pro-Lifer? I don't know. I guess it will depend on who I ask.

Now, if I can just get you to see that our understanding of the truth of the Bible should incorporate similar forms of entailment, then maybe I can also get you to concede that Christian faith is indeed complex (as it should be seen to be) and not simple. And then, perhaps, we can get you to the baptismal ... ;) ... or at least back to the alter if you've already been baptized. I'd like to think that with God...anything is possible.
 
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When you're God, it's OK ... I thought we went over that already, what with there not being some extra-Platonic existence of morality apart from God Himself. ;)

You said that God can kill whenever he pleases, and that this is OK. I don't recall agreeing, and I don't have to commit to some form of absolute, objective morality to voice my opinion that it is a problem when a living thing dies.

I really like it when I see you concede to conditions/qualifications.

Why?

So yes, by your standard, I'm apparently "pro-abortion," just barely. But even if that is the case, it is a highly conditional "pro-abortion" stance, a stance that most liberals in America would barely recognize as one they would count as "pro-abortion."

They would call it out as the barbarism that it is, saying it is anti-choice. It is undeniably a human rights violation. No liberal would pat you on the back for taking this stance.

Or am I just a conditional Pro-Lifer? I don't know. I guess it will depend on who I ask.

Who cares? Politics is almost as big a joke as religion is, so I do not care about their labels or terms.

Now, if I can just get you to see that our understanding of the truth of the Bible should incorporate similar forms of entailment, then maybe I can also get you to concede that Christian faith is indeed complex (as it should be seen to be) and not simple. And then, perhaps, we can get you to the baptismal ... ;) ... or at least back to the alter if you've already been baptized. I'd like to think that with God...anything is possible.

Christian faith is simple. Do you or do you not believe that Jesus was crucified and then rose from the dead?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You said that God can kill whenever he pleases, and that this is OK. I don't recall agreeing, and I don't have to commit to some form of absolute, objective morality to voice my opinion that it is a problem when a living thing dies.
...then you simply have an opinion on ethics, and no one has to take it into consideration since it's not objective. Right? Unless...there's something within your ethical view that actually coincides with God's view on morality and ethics.

Because it would imply that even you can see that concepts like Christian faith are complex and nuanced, not simple.

They would call it out as the barbarism that it is, saying it is anti-choice. It is undeniably a human rights violation. No liberal would pat you on the back for taking this stance.
Barbarism? Maybe the reality is that those who are calling some act 'barbaric' are simply doing so from a highly liberalized, permissive and perhaps promiscuous point of view. Ay?

And you say it is obvious that God promotes a human rights violation? Well, it's obvious to me that modern human rights are partially at odds with God as to what right and wrong "are." In fact, there's very little (almost no, really) ontological substance to modern human rights. An educated and intelligent nihilist like yourself should be able to know and understand that. Modern Human Rights has no teeth ... and only one leg of truth. It thinks it stands tall, but it's really just hobbling around the world, offering the help of an already crippled point of view.

Of course no Liberal would pat me on the back. Nor would I want them to, especially since Jesus said, "Woe unto to you when all men speak well of you ..."

Who cares? Politics is almost as big a joke as religion is, so I do not care about their labels or terms.
You do realize that Human Rights is partially within the field of politics, right? If so, then it is partially a 'joke,' too. More "doublethink" on your part, NV. More "doublethink."

Christian faith is simple. Do you or do you not believe that Jesus was crucified and then rose from the dead?
Nope. It's complex. Surely you can see why since there is a big incongruity between your first sentence and the second here ... Can you see it?

ff525
 
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Oncedeceived

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...then you simply have an opinion on ethics, and no one has to take it into consideration since it's not objective. Right? Unless...there's something within your ethical view that actually coincides with God's view on morality and ethics.

Because it would imply that even you can see that concepts like Christian faith are complex and nuanced, not simple.

Barbarism? Maybe the reality is that those who are calling some act 'barbaric' are simply do so from a highly liberalized, permissive and perhaps promiscuous point of view. Ay?

And that what God does is "obviously" a human rights violation? Well, it's obvious to me that modern human rights are partially at odds with God as to what right and wrong "are." In fact, there's very little (almost no, really) ontological substance to modern human rights. An educated and intelligent nihilist like yourself should be able to know and understand that. Modern Human Rights has no teeth ... and only one leg of truth. It's thinks it stands tall, but it's really just hobbling around the world, offering the help of an already crippled point of view.

Of course no Liberal would pat me on the back. Nor would I want them to, especially since Jesus said, "Woe unto to you when all men speak well of you ..."

You do realize that Human Rights is partially within the field of politics, right? If so, then it is partially a 'joke,' too. More "doublethink" on your part, NV. More "doublethink."

Nope. It's complex. Surely you can see why since there is a big incongruity between your first sentence and the second here ... Can you see it?
Excellent points all.
 
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...then you simply have an opinion on ethics, and no one has to take it into consideration since it's not objective. Right?

False. It should be taken into consideration if it is useful. And it is indeed useful in constructing society. Biblical morality is what's worthless when constructing a society. Of the 10 Commandments, only 3 can ever be law in a modern society; of the 600+ commandments, that 30% plummets even further.

The first commandment contradicts America's first amendment, the last commandment contradicts America's capitalistic economy, and the rest of the list is sorry at best. In under 10 minutes I came up with a much better list of 10 Commandments:

I
Thou shalt not harm thy fellow human being except in self-defense or when under orders.

II
Thou shalt not harm the beasts of the earth except in self-defense or to make use of their flesh.

III
Thou shalt not cause unnecessary suffering when harming any living creature.

IV
Thou shalt not own thy fellow human being as property.

V
Thou shalt not rape.

VI
Thou shalt not kidnap.

VII
Thou shalt not steal.

VIII
Thou shalt not indoctrinate thy little ones.

IX
Thou shalt not persecute or promote a human being based on race or sexuality.

X
Thou shalt not observe evil and do nothing.

Unless...there's something within your ethical view that actually coincides with God's view on morality and ethics.

I'd certainly hope not.

Because it would imply that even you can see that concepts like Christian faith are complex and nuanced, not simple.

Again, Christian faith is simple.

Barbarism? Maybe the reality is that those who are calling some act 'barbaric' are simply doing so from a highly liberalized, permissive and perhaps promiscuous point of view. Ay?

No.

And you say it is obvious that God promotes a human rights violation?

Yep.

Well, it's obvious to me that modern human rights are partially at odds with God as to what right and wrong "are."

Yeah, also true. And aren't you glad? Or do you like slavery?

In fact, there's very little (almost no, really) ontological substance to modern human rights.

If someone owned you as property because you were lucky enough to be born to serfs, and then they raped you because they were simply inclined to do so at the moment, would you feel violated or would you first stop to consider the ontological substance of the situation?

An educated and intelligent nihilist like yourself should be able to know and understand that.

Yes, and it shows just how worthless philosophy is, doesn't it?

Modern Human Rights has no teeth ... and only one leg of truth. It thinks it stands tall, but it's really just hobbling around the world, offering the help of an already crippled point of view.

I know, right? All it offers is a vastly better quality of life than has ever been seen on Planet Earth.

Of course no Liberal would pat me on the back. Nor would I want them to, especially since Jesus said, "Woe unto to you when all men speak well of you ..."

Since when do Christians care what Jesus said?

9m2SMG8.jpg


You do realize that Human Rights is partially within the field of politics, right? If so, then it is partially a 'joke,' too. More "doublethink" on your part, NV. More "doublethink."

Good point. Almost a gotcha. Except read what I said again:

Who cares? Politics is almost as big a joke as religion is, so I do not care about their labels or terms.

Let me bold a portion:

Who cares? Politics is almost as big a joke as religion is, so I do not care about their labels or terms.

As long as human rights is a thing, I don't really care what it's called.

Nope. It's complex. Surely you can see why since there is a big incongruity between your first sentence and the second here ... Can you see it?

ff525

So when you say "Nope" I assume you're negating the first thing I said, and then you're ignoring the direct question. But the direct question directly proves that faith is a simple concept. Once again, the score is NV [max integer exceeded], 2PV 0. Thanks for playing!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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False. It should be taken into consideration if it is useful. And it is indeed useful in constructing society. Biblical morality is what's worthless when constructing a society. Of the 10 Commandments, only 3 can ever be law in a modern society; of the 600+ commandments, that 30% plummets even further.
Who said anything about using the Bible to directly cull out laws by which one might attempt to build a modern society? I don't hold to that form of Christian faith, so I'm not sure why you'd even suggest that I might be on that Christian Reconstructionist road. I'm definitely not. Furthermore, ethical ideas have to be more than just useful ... pragmatism isn't enough. And what does "useful" mean anyway? It sounds like a 'wax-nose' to me.

Both of my degrees are in social philosophy, and so far, you seem to be opening your mouth about things you obviously haven't thought through. Better stick with the mathematics teaching, NV. ;)

The first commandment contradicts America's first amendment, the last commandment contradicts America's capitalistic economy, and the rest of the list is sorry at best. In under 10 minutes I came up with a much better list of 10 Commandments:


I
Thou shalt not harm thy fellow human being except in self-defense or when under orders.

II
Thou shalt not harm the beasts of the earth except in self-defense or to make use of their flesh.

III
Thou shalt not cause unnecessary suffering when harming any living creature.

IV
Thou shalt not own thy fellow human being as property.

V
Thou shalt not rape.

VI
Thou shalt not kidnap.

VII
Thou shalt not steal.

VIII
Thou shalt not indoctrinate thy little ones.

IX
Thou shalt not persecute or promote a human being based on race or sexuality.

X
Thou shalt not observe evil and do nothing.

Yes, the 1st Commandment definitely DOES contradict the 1st Amendment. So, I guess there's a problem even from the get go as far as American political ideology is concerned, let alone the problem that remains with the ideology of the United Nations as it is instilled in the so-called Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a document that attempts to build an ethical commonality without the Trinitarian God as a foundation. But, I'm not surprised about all of that. Are you? It's not as if God didn't tell us ahead of time that the world was going to go that route.

Yeah, also true. And aren't you glad? Or do you like slavery?
Modern human rights that are not based on Jesus as Lord will ultimately fail. And as far as slavery is concerned, there is an inherent notion in the Bible that freedom from a lifetime of slavery--both political or spiritual-- can only truly be found by obeying Jesus as Lord.

If someone owned you as property because you were lucky enough to be born to serfs, and then they raped you because they were simply inclined to do so at the moment, would you feel violated or would you first stop to consider the ontological substance of the situation?
Uh...I'm not sure I understand the question ........................................................................ o_O Kind of like how you seem not to understand (or answer) my questions.

Yes, and it shows just how worthless philosophy is, doesn't it?
You're 'doing' philosophy right now, so if you think it is worthless, then perhaps you need to close your trap and leave CF, then you'll prove to me just how worthless you really think it is. But, being that you probably won't in any case, I would have to surmise that you're either ignorant or a liar. Which is it, NV? [Go push that 'report' button ... that'll take care of you having to defend your weak point of view with anything approaching integrity or academic quality. So, go ahead...make my day!]

I know, right? All it offers is a vastly better quality of life than has ever been seen on Planet Earth.
If you've followed the history of the United Nations, surely you'd know that they can't get everyone on earth on the same page. (You've studied Human Rights, I assume, right? Like me, you've got books on it, right?)

Since when do Christians care what Jesus said?
...talk to the hand, NV.

Good point. Almost a gotcha. Except read what I said again:

Who cares? Politics is almost as big a joke as religion is, so I do not care about their labels or terms.

Let me bold a portion:

Who cares? Politics is almost as big a joke as religion is, so I do not care about their labels or terms.

As long as human rights is a thing, I don't really care what it's called.
No, it was definitely a gotcha. Only someone like yourself who isn't studied in Ethics (a part of philosophy by the way) wouldn't see that you're now talking out of your behind. Does it make you angry for me to say so?

So when you say "Nope" I assume you're negating the first thing I said, and then you're ignoring the direct question. But the direct question directly proves that faith is a simple concept. Once again, the score is NV [max integer exceeded], 2PV 0. Thanks for playing!
... my pleasure (because I like it when people give me a reason to have to stand up for the Christian faith...) :cool:
 
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devolved

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As long as human rights is a thing, I don't really care what it's called.

Human rights imply moral obligations from the rest of the population to respect those rights, which rests on the system that maintains that order... and that system is almost certainly not written in a language of mathematical formulas.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Religion in general, and Christianity in particular, does not always want things to be clear. If, for instance, a clear outcome is expected after a session of prayer, then the effectiveness of prayer will be shown to be statistically equivalent to randomness.
Just to point out, the big bang is also random.


However, a religion like Islam, as far as I understand, makes it absolutely clear what is considered right and wrong. Any contradiction in scripture is resolved by the understanding that a later statement overrides an earlier statement. So Muslims have a clear understanding of what is expected of them (even though most, fortunately, ignore the clear commands to murder people). While being easily the world's most despicable religion, Islam is nevertheless clear, concise, and well defined by religious standards.

Christianity, on the other hand, does not make it clear what is right or wrong. One might think that the rules are similar to Islam in that the New Testament overrides the Old Testament, but that does not seem to actually be the case. Jesus and Paul, the two main founders of Christianity, did away with much of the Old Testament, but John - the fourth most important founder of Christianity behind Peter - says in 1 John 3:4 that "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." It would seem to make sense that the law as dictated by God through Moses is the "objective morality" that some Christians refer to, which would mean that sin is defined as defiance of any of the 600+ commandments in the law. Yet, essentially no Christian on earth would attest to the absolute authority of everything listed in the Mosaic law. I've never gotten a clear answer on this issue. Worse, I don't know if I've ever even seen two Christians agree on this. Worst, this is the criteria by which we will be evaluated as worthy of eternal hellfire, and yet we have no access to this criteria.
Generally, speaking, the apodictic and casuistic laws come from Ur-Nammu and are adopted in the laws of Hammurabi and similarily adopted in Exodus by Moses. The 10 commandaments are a hint themseleves, they are clay tablets. Scripture is generally papyrus, hence the clay tablets indicate Cuneiform.

The purpose of this thread is for someone to present a clear definition of sin. I must be able to apply your definition to any conceivable scenario and determine for myself if an action qualifies as sinful. If you think my expectations are unreasonable, please explain why Islam is capable doing this.
Originally the concept of sin comes from Sumer and even possibly older in Gobekli Tepe with the Proto Sumerian's. There are stele in Sumer that point this out, but originally sin was a personal offense against one's personal God or God's the person is worshiping. So in Sumer we would have city-states and those Gods would be worshiped, but a person would have a personal God they would worship in the home. Of course laws were often combined in a legal codex and would also concern religious laws in Ur or Uruk or any other city-state in Sumer. This is reflected in Mesopotamian literature as well, but the Israelite's will similarly adopt this concept of "sin".

So in a sense "sin" is a personal offense, but is later in the Latin "missing the mark". The Bible will confuse what "sin" is, because the Bible itself is an adoption of collective myths from Mesopotamian as well Indo-European cultures, and even some Afrocentric ideologies might be found in it.
 
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Tinker Grey

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Just to point out, the big bang is also random.
This is unknown and unknowable.

For something to be random there have to be more than one option to choose from. We simply don't know if this universe could NOT have existed.

Randomness implies pdfs (probability distribution functions). Tossing a coin has a uniform pdf. Throwing a single die has a uniform pdf. Throwing multiple dice and considering the sum a random variable gets results that being to approximate a normal (Gaussian) distribution. We can't begin to measure the randomness of BB events.
 
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ShamashUruk

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This is unknown and unknowable.

For something to be random there have to be more than one option to choose from. We simply don't know if this universe could NOT have existed.

Randomness implies pdfs (probability distribution functions). Tossing a coin has a uniform pdf. Throwing a single die has a uniform pdf. Throwing multiple dice and considering the sum a random variable gets results that being to approximate a normal (Gaussian) distribution. We can't begin to measure the randomness of BB events.

I was talking about the big bang, whether an oscillating theory is then added I do not know. Prayer in of itself is not really "random", the outcome might be random, but prayer has a point of "origin" if you will. I assume the big bang also has a point of origin.

I do not think there is enough collective data on prayer to make an conclusion whether the outcome is random or not.

This all relates to the supernatural, which is an area that needs to be vastly explored. To conclude that there is randomness in prayer is no more than concluding there is randomness in the big bang, we simply don't know enough.

But, the OP is talking about where the idea of sin came from. That is mainly what I was addressing, this might be off topic, even though I did add a sidebar statement.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I was talking about the big bang, whether an oscillating theory is then added I do not know. Prayer in of itself is not really "random", the outcome might be random, but prayer has a point of "origin" if you will. I assume the big bang also has a point of origin.

I do not think there is enough collective data on prayer to make an conclusion whether the outcome is random or not.

This all relates to the supernatural, which is an area that needs to be vastly explored. To conclude that there is randomness in prayer is no more than concluding there is randomness in the big bang, we simply don't know enough.

But, the OP is talking about where the idea of sin came from. That is mainly what I was addressing, this might be off topic, even though I did add a sidebar statement.
Outcomes for those prayed for can be (and have been) tested and have been shown (to within certain degrees certainty) to be random. That is, prayer has no effect.

No tests can be run on the BB.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Outcomes for those prayed for can be (and have been) tested and have been shown (to within certain degrees certainty) to be random. That is, prayer has no effect.

No tests can be run on the BB.

I am curious to know which tests those are and which studies have concluded that. That are not biased of course.
I could conclude then the Big Bang is as much a hypothesis as it is not a theory then.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I am curious to know which tests those are and which studies have concluded that. That are not biased of course.
I could conclude then the Big Bang is as much a hypothesis as it is not a theory then.
Here's an example: Music, imagery, touch, and prayer as adjuncts to interventional cardiac care: the Monitoring and Actualisation of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) II rand... - PubMed - NCBI

It should be noted that most literature reviews suggest that such studies a fraught. So, the conclusiveness of my original statement is perhaps overstated. Nevertheless, the point remains that the effectiveness and/or randomness of prayer can be studied.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Here's an example: Music, imagery, touch, and prayer as adjuncts to interventional cardiac care: the Monitoring and Actualisation of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) II rand... - PubMed - NCBI

It should be noted that most literature reviews suggest that such studies a fraught. So, the conclusiveness of my original statement is perhaps overstated. Nevertheless, the point remains that the effectiveness and/or randomness of prayer can be studied.

Yes I know it was overstated from the get go The study itself seems a bit confusing, one part states

"mortality at 6 months was lower with MIT therapy than with no MIT therapy (hazard ratio 0.35 (95% CI 0.15-0.82, p=0.016)"

and another

"Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterisation or percutaneous coronary intervention"

This could be due to the psychology of the mind itself. However, some polytheistic worshipers view their Gods as mental constructs and not as actual deities.

This doesn't do much to conclude that a study on the paranormal or supernatural is invalid or valid. There are a lot of unknowns, and sure it doesn't equate "God", it equates a study should be conducted.
 
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Human rights imply moral obligations from the rest of the population to respect those rights, which rests on the system that maintains that order... and that system is almost certainly not written in a language of mathematical formulas.

Why would you expect to find human rights agreements in mathematics? Do you eat hammers for lunch and drive in nails with sandwiches?
 
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Who said anything about using the Bible to directly cull out laws by which one might attempt to build a modern society? I don't hold to that form of Christian faith, so I'm not sure why you'd even suggest that I might be on that Christian Reconstructionist road. I'm definitely not.

Modern human rights that are not based on Jesus as Lord will ultimately fail.

contradictions-contradictions-everywhere.jpg
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What do you "mean?"

I mean, you're telling the truth. There really are "Contradictions; contradictions everywhere!"

...the only thing is, we Christians are more prone to just call all of those contradictions..."Sin." :rolleyes:
 
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ShamashUruk

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I mean, you're telling the truth. There really are "Contradictions; contradictions everywhere!"

...the only thing is, we Christians are more prone to just call all of those contradictions..."Sin." :rolleyes:

What do you "mean?"
Let's clear up this contradiction and sin motif in Biblical literature. Biblical contradictions are seemingly easy to point out. However, there are a wide range of varieties as to why the Biblical texts are contradictory, generally this has to do with P, E, J, D sources in the Biblical texts and much later this has to do with Church Councils in the New Testament, each author is bringing to the table a variation of translation concerning the Bible, historically.

However, there are such issues in the Bible as humans being created in the image of God which tends to violate holy law itself.

Divine image and representation concerning the creation of human life is an exception to the rule of creation by divine fiat, as signaled by the replacement of the simple ... Hebrew command (the jussive) with a personal, strongly expressed resolve, the cohortative. Whereas the earlier jussives expressed God’s will with a third person, nonagentive verb form, the cohortative is both first person and agentive. Unlike the jussives, too, the cohortative doesn’t itself create but prepares or introduces the creative act. With justification, then:

The man and the woman in Gen. I ... are ... created ... by God’s own personal decision (v. 26)—a decision unique in the Priestly document’s whole creation account.

Similarly, God participates more intimately and intensively in this than in the earlier works of creation. As the cohortative form suggests, P’s (P source) God anticipates a more active role, greater control, and stronger personal involvement in the human creation than in his previous seven creative acts. God’s involvement also runs deeper. As P (P source) tells the story, this last creative act coincides with an extraordinary divine event. When God initiates human creation, God takes the opportunity to identify himself, for the first time, in the self-referential first person. At the same time, God’s identity is invested in this human creature and is represented by two characteristics: a divine image and a divine likeness. Humanity resembles divinity through two inherent yet divine features. Of all God’s creations, only humanity is envisioned as comparable to divinity.

V. 27 will corroborate and will execute this vision. Its first clause names the creator, the human creature, and the divine image that God invests in human beings (v. 27aα ). Overlapping with the first, the second clause identifies the divine possessor of the image (v. 27aâ ). The third clause deletes reference to the image yet describes the human creature as a constituent pair (v. 27b). V. 27 therefore will reiterate the unique relationship between God and humanity, explains the relationship, and tracks it from its source to its individual heirs. So, the interpretive details of Gen :26–27 are unclear at best.

To be sure, the characteristics uniquely shared by creator and creature assert “the incomparable nature of human beings and their special relationship to God.”

But when its two nominal components—‘image’and ‘likeness’—are queried, the assertion of incomparability is quickly qualified. For example, what does the ‘image’ of God signify, and how does the human race reflect it? Or, what is a divine ‘likeness’, how does it compare to the divine ‘image’, and how is the ‘likeness’ reflected in humankind? The responses are often unsatisfying. Very little distinction can be made between the two words. The two terms are used interchangeably and indiscriminately and one has to conclude that “image” and “likeness” are, like “prototype” and “original,” essentially equivalent expressions. They do not seek to describe two different sorts of relationship, but only a single one; the second member of the word-pair does not seek to do more than in some sense to define the first more closely and to reinforce it. That is to say, it seeks so to limit and to fix the likeness and accord between God and man that, in all circumstances, the uniqueness of God will be guarded. These statements, then, testify to the problem.

The ‘image’ is problematic in its own right. For in most of its occurrences, íìö ‘image’ is a concrete noun. And as such, it refers to a representation of form, figure, or physical appearance.

Thus if the human race is created in the ‘image of God’, there is an unavoidable logical implication: God must also be material, physical, corporeal, and, to a certain degree, humanoid. Problematic, too, is the intertextual implication of a concrete, human ‘image’. Indeed, the very existence of such an ‘image’ seems to violate the second commandment, which forbids idols and idolatry (Ex 20: – ; Dt : –10; see also Dt :15–19, and, within the Priestly tradition, Lev 19: , 26: ).
 
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