The definition of sin

RaymondG

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Obviously false. There's nothing liberating about having the inclination to touch, yet feeling guilty about doing it.

What about those who do it and have no feelings of guilt or shame? I would expect that they feel fully liberated.

Nonsensical.

Exactly right. The carnal mind cannot understand the things of God. woe to those who believe they can learn the exact meanings of the spirit through reasoning of the mind.

I believed for the first 18 years of my life. I was given nothing. I don't see why I should give anything more until I see results.

Nice, I spent 30 years in belief before desiring to know....wish I came to my sense after only 18 years. Coincidently, it is at these very moments that the spirit seems to come and reveal. When each cloud of my own perceived understanding is removed, the light of God shines through.

yet I have 30 years of clouds....you only 18. But you can view the full joys of heaven before me, if you want, No matter who gets there first...we will get the same reward. But don't try to beat me there.....as the race is not given to the swift.

Strange how those who believe they are so far, can be the ones who are the closest........I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
 
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Soyeong

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Even the ceremonial law?

Of course. There ceremonial laws are God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct in accordance with His holiness, and in 1 Peter 1:13-16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus, where God was giving instructions for how to do that.


But sin was defined before the mosaic law.

Genesis 4:6-7 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
The concept of sin exists apart from the law. Cain knew that he had sinned.

Indeed, there is much evidence of God's laws already being in place throughout Genesis prior to when the Law was given to Moses. So the Mosaic did not invent the concept of sin, but rather it revealed what has always been and will always be sin.
 
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To be clear, are you saying that it is sinful to work on the Sabbath? Is it sinful to not execute someone for working on the Sabbath? Also... pork and shellfish?

It is sinful to work on the Sabbath.

The civil issue of enforcing biblical law is complicated and there's some disagreement and debate as to how those civil laws given to Israel ought to apply to modern nations and to the church.

The dietary laws are abrogated within Biblical Law because Biblical Law includes the New Testament.
 
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Tree of Life

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Even the ceremonial law?

The ceremonial law fits within the broader idea of the Law of God which includes both OT Law and NT adjustments. So the answer is yes and no. For example, it would be unlawful today to offer an animal sacrifice at a temple even though this is prescribed in the OT. This is because the advent of Jesus has made the temple system obsolete and now the only sacrifice for sins which remains is Christ. So, in Christ, we are fulfilling the command to approach God with a sacrifice. Yet we have a better sacrifice than any animal.
 
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Also, just because there are some things that are unclear and some areas of debate (i.e. whether or not ceremonial and civil laws apply and how) does not mean that we can say nothing about sin. There are many aspects of the Law which are very clear and agree upon by the whole Church. Most notably the 10 Commandments (Sabbath issues aside).

So to raise a stink about the fact that there's some debate in order to make it seem as if we cannot know anything about God's will is an evasion.
 
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Everybodyknows

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The ceremonial law fits within the broader idea of the Law of God which includes both OT Law and NT adjustments. So the answer is yes and no. For example, it would be unlawful today to offer an animal sacrifice at a temple even though this is prescribed in the OT. This is because the advent of Jesus has made the temple system obsolete and now the only sacrifice for sins which remains is Christ. So, in Christ, we are fulfilling the command to approach God with a sacrifice. Yet we have a better sacrifice than any animal.
Ok thanks. Usually people mean the mosaic law when they say law of God. I see you mean it in a broader context. :)
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Religion in general, and Christianity in particular, does not always want things to be clear. If, for instance, a clear outcome is expected after a session of prayer, then the effectiveness of prayer will be shown to be statistically equivalent to randomness.

However, a religion like Islam, as far as I understand, makes it absolutely clear what is considered right and wrong. Any contradiction in scripture is resolved by the understanding that a later statement overrides an earlier statement. So Muslims have a clear understanding of what is expected of them (even though most, fortunately, ignore the clear commands to murder people). While being easily the world's most despicable religion, Islam is nevertheless clear, concise, and well defined by religious standards.

Christianity, on the other hand, does not make it clear what is right or wrong. One might think that the rules are similar to Islam in that the New Testament overrides the Old Testament, but that does not seem to actually be the case. Jesus and Paul, the two main founders of Christianity, did away with much of the Old Testament, but John - the fourth most important founder of Christianity behind Peter - says in 1 John 3:4 that "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." It would seem to make sense that the law as dictated by God through Moses is the "objective morality" that some Christians refer to, which would mean that sin is defined as defiance of any of the 600+ commandments in the law. Yet, essentially no Christian on earth would attest to the absolute authority of everything listed in the Mosaic law.

I've never gotten a clear answer on this issue. Worse, I don't know if I've ever even seen two Christians agree on this. Worst, this is the criteria by which we will be evaluated as worthy of eternal hellfire, and yet we have no access to this criteria.

The purpose of this thread is for someone to present a clear definition of sin. I must be able to apply your definition to any conceivable scenario and determine for myself if an action qualifies as sinful. If you think my expectations are unreasonable, please explain why Islam is capable doing this.
There are multiple schools of Islamic Jurisprudence that all define what is or is not acceptable or sinful, differently. Often they don't even agree within the school.
For instance, there are four major Sunni schools: Hanbali, Shafi'i, Hanafi, Maliki; and a whole host of minor ones.

Anyway, to illustrate: In the 19th century the Muslim inhabitants of the Cape asked the British to send them a learned jurist in Islamic Law. Victoria officially requested one from the Ottoman Empire, who sent Abu Bakr Effendi to the Cape. He was schooled in the four schools mentioned above. The majority of the population followed Shafi'i, but all four were present, as the Dutch had taken Islamic slaves from various places and deposited them here. On his arrival, he promptly started correcting local muslim abuses and declared the consumption of Snoek haraam or unlawful. Now Snoek was a major part of the fishermen's diet and there was an outcry.
As a consequence, some complied and others refused, with local Islamic Jurists disagreeing that the consumption of Snoek was sinful. So in the end, there are 8 opinions today, a yes and no, for each of the four schools and they still have not decided whether it is sinful or not.
So Sin in Islam is not clear at all...

In Christianity, Sin is what separates us from God. As Jesus said, you are to Love God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself. Anything not confirming to this, is Sin.
Now how do we determine that? It is very difficult. For instance, a man that spends his entire life helping the poor, but he does it for acolades of others, is essentially a hypocrite eaten up by pride, and has essentially placed something else before God. This would therefore be Sin and we would not necessarily be able to know it.
Each person bears their own burden of sin and has to face their Maker to account someday. It is a personal affair, what sin a person finds he has set between him and God.
This is why there is the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, where often the sheep were unaware that they were followers and the goats are rejected in that Jesus did not know them, in spite of their claiming to be His followers.
Another example is the Publican and the Pharisee, where the sinner is redeemed, but the prideful Pharisee, who appears righteous from outside, is not.

So quite frankly, it is far too complex for us to be able to completely and objectively determine what is sin. This is why we are taught not to Judge. Sometimes it is simple, like in theft or murder, but often murky. We can give guidelines, but no rules can be "applied to any scenario" and "be able to determine for myself if an action qualifies as sinful". This is simply impossible and cannot be answered by our fallable and incomplete human perspectives. This is true in Islam as well, in spite of your pangyric approach to how clear and concise their rules supposedly are.
 
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Sojourner1

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The purpose of this thread is for someone to present a clear definition of sin. I must be able to apply your definition to any conceivable scenario and determine for myself if an action qualifies as sinful. If you think my expectations are unreasonable, please explain why Islam is capable doing this.

From Wayne Grudem's book "Systematic Theology":

"We may define sin as follows: Sin is any failure to conform to the moral law of God in act, attitude, or nature. Sin is here defined in relation to God and his moral law. Sin includes not only individual acts such as stealing or lying or committing murder, but also attitudes that are contrary to the attitudes God requires of us. Sin is also a failure to conform to God's moral law not only in action and attitude, but also in our moral nature. Our very nature, the internal character that is the essence of who we are as persons, can also be sinful. Before we were redeemed by Christ, not only did we do sinful acts and have sinful attitudes, we were also sinners by nature."
 
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Everybodyknows

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Religion in general, and Christianity in particular, does not always want things to be clear. If, for instance, a clear outcome is expected after a session of prayer, then the effectiveness of prayer will be shown to be statistically equivalent to randomness.

However, a religion like Islam, as far as I understand, makes it absolutely clear what is considered right and wrong. Any contradiction in scripture is resolved by the understanding that a later statement overrides an earlier statement. So Muslims have a clear understanding of what is expected of them (even though most, fortunately, ignore the clear commands to murder people). While being easily the world's most despicable religion, Islam is nevertheless clear, concise, and well defined by religious standards.

Christianity, on the other hand, does not make it clear what is right or wrong. One might think that the rules are similar to Islam in that the New Testament overrides the Old Testament, but that does not seem to actually be the case. Jesus and Paul, the two main founders of Christianity, did away with much of the Old Testament, but John - the fourth most important founder of Christianity behind Peter - says in 1 John 3:4 that "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." It would seem to make sense that the law as dictated by God through Moses is the "objective morality" that some Christians refer to, which would mean that sin is defined as defiance of any of the 600+ commandments in the law. Yet, essentially no Christian on earth would attest to the absolute authority of everything listed in the Mosaic law.

I've never gotten a clear answer on this issue. Worse, I don't know if I've ever even seen two Christians agree on this. Worst, this is the criteria by which we will be evaluated as worthy of eternal hellfire, and yet we have no access to this criteria.

The purpose of this thread is for someone to present a clear definition of sin. I must be able to apply your definition to any conceivable scenario and determine for myself if an action qualifies as sinful. If you think my expectations are unreasonable, please explain why Islam is capable doing this.
In christianity sin is more of a relational concept than a list of dos and don'ts. The more important part of sin is its result on the human condition rather than human actions. Sinful acts are merely a result of the sinful nature. This is why the new testament doesn't bother with giving a list of behaviours to adhere to, rather the emphasis is on growing into particular qualities or virtues, becoming the people we are meant to be. Nature is more important than action, and this is seen in the teachings of Christ where the emphasis is on motives and heart, rather than blind adherence to the code. I see it as more akin to a virtue based ethics system where one aspires to emulate the virtues of Christ. Sin is destructive and grace is restorative to the human condition.
 
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gadar perets

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There are at least four NT definitions of sin;

1) 1 John 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
2) 1 John 5:17a All unrighteousness is sin:
3) Romans 14:23 And he that doubts is damned if he eat, because he eats not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
4) James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.
Sin is brought forth through lust.

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

Lust causes us to break YHWH's laws. Faith causes us to keep them and avoid sin.
 
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gadar perets

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Mark 7:19.
Mark 7:19 reads, "Because it enters not into his heart, but into his belly, and goes out into the draught, purging all meats." (KJV) The last three words do not mean all unclean food is now cleansed as deceived translators of modern versions would have us believe. Yeshua simply meant that waste food was carried off by the digestive tract. The body was cleansed of whatever was eaten. The word “draught” in the KJV would refer to the toilet bowl in our day.

The scribes and Pharisees had seen the disciples eat bread without first washing their hands. This was contrary to their traditional beliefs. At that time, however, the disciples only ate clean food. Therefore, the context is eating clean food with unwashed hands. It has nothing to do with eating unclean animal flesh.

As a result of their question in verse 2, Yeshua rebukes their tradition and their hypocrisy and sums up his statements in Matthew 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defiles not a man." This chapter has nothing to do with cleansing unclean meat. The issue was centered on tradition and outward ritual cleansing, which made them appear holy. But Yeshua wants us to have complete change of heart and mind, not of the outward appearance.
 
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I would recommend the book No God but One by Nabeel Quereshi, who was an ex-Muslim who converted to Christianity, which compares and contrasts their teachings.

Why not recommend someone who converted the other way so that you appear objective?

Sin is inclusive of everything the Law prohibits, but the Law was never intended as an exhaustive list of everything that is sinful, so if that's what you're looking for, then you won't find it. For example, God is righteous and He has given instructions for how to act in accordance with His righteousness, but there are more ways to do that than by following those instructions. Rather, those instructions were given to teach us how to live according to the principle of righteousness so that we can know what to do when we come across situations that not listed in the Bible. For example, the Bible doesn't specifically say anything about stem cell research, so rather than taking the position that it is not specifically prohibited by the Bible, so it must be ok, we can base our decision off of the principles that are taught in the Bible. So it should be clear to you that sin includes everything that transgresses Law and from that we can infer other things that are sin. Things that are not explicitly prohibited are naturally not as clear, but are not poorly defined either.

So far, I'm liking this answer best - in terms of simply being consistent and well defined. However, the Old Testament law would make a criminal of anyone who followed it. The OT law is quite terrible and immoral. I do not think you genuinely believe it is right. What do we do from here?
 
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What about those who do it and have no feelings of guilt or shame? I would expect that they feel fully liberated.

I'm sure they do. What's your point and how does this help it?

Exactly right. The carnal mind cannot understand the things of God. woe to those who believe they can learn the exact meanings of the spirit through reasoning of the mind.

You've just stated that the apologetics forum is worthless. Why are you here?

Nice, I spent 30 years in belief before desiring to know....wish I came to my sense after only 18 years. Coincidently, it is at these very moments that the spirit seems to come and reveal. When each cloud of my own perceived understanding is removed, the light of God shines through.

It seems you are saying that you know God exists, and not that you merely believe God exists. If that's what you're saying, then we both know you're being dishonest.

yet I have 30 years of clouds....you only 18. But you can view the full joys of heaven before me, if you want, No matter who gets there first...we will get the same reward. But don't try to beat me there.....as the race is not given to the swift.

Accountability and justice: totally absent from Christianity.

Strange how those who believe they are so far, can be the ones who are the closest........I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

You're saying I could be easier to convert than an apathetic atheist?
 
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It is sinful to work on the Sabbath.

The civil issue of enforcing biblical law is complicated and there's some disagreement and debate as to how those civil laws given to Israel ought to apply to modern nations and to the church.

The dietary laws are abrogated within Biblical Law because Biblical Law includes the New Testament.

So then I assume you have no problem with slavery, since it was clearly never abrogated in the NT. Also, the execution of homosexuals was never abrogated. Do you think we should still be executing them? What about witches? Do you believe they exist? If so, what are their powers and should we execute them?

Also, please go in depth on the rape laws in the OT because I think they are severely lacking.

God has made it very clear through his revealed will - otherwise known as the Law of God.

And that seems to be precisely the problem. The law was written by men who had no issues with slavery, rape, genocide, racism, or sexism. And you are saying I am accountable to that on pain of infinite torture.
 
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From Wayne Grudem's book "Systematic Theology":

"We may define sin as follows: Sin is any failure to conform to the moral law of God in act, attitude, or nature. Sin is here defined in relation to God and his moral law. Sin includes not only individual acts such as stealing or lying or committing murder, but also attitudes that are contrary to the attitudes God requires of us. Sin is also a failure to conform to God's moral law not only in action and attitude, but also in our moral nature. Our very nature, the internal character that is the essence of who we are as persons, can also be sinful. Before we were redeemed by Christ, not only did we do sinful acts and have sinful attitudes, we were also sinners by nature."

Thanks. This is basically what I thought. But God's morality and his law are very immoral. Slavery, rape, genocide, mass murder, racism, sexism: all good things?
 
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In christianity sin is more of a relational concept than a list of dos and don'ts. The more important part of sin is its result on the human condition rather than human actions. Sinful acts are merely a result of the sinful nature. This is why the new testament doesn't bother with giving a list of behaviours to adhere to, rather the emphasis is on growing into particular qualities or virtues, becoming the people we are meant to be. Nature is more important than action, and this is seen in the teachings of Christ where the emphasis is on motives and heart, rather than blind adherence to the code. I see it as more akin to a virtue based ethics system where one aspires to emulate the virtues of Christ. Sin is destructive and grace is restorative to the human condition.

This doesn't tell me anything.

On Christian theology, we were created without consent and placed in a game with infinite torture as the inevitable result of breaking rules which are either totally immoral (rape and slavery are OK, genocide and mass murder too) or else totally unclear (sin is... whatever it is you're saying it is).
 
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There are at least four NT definitions of sin;

1) 1 John 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I listed this verse in the OP. You are listing it as though it is new information in this thread. Did you skim the OP, or not read it at all?

2) 1 John 5:17a All unrighteousness is sin:

That explains nothing.

3) Romans 14:23 And he that doubts is damned if he eat, because he eats not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

So if a woman drowns her children because she thinks God told her to do it, is she sinning?

This is not intended as a "gotcha" because I would be committing the Denying the Antecedent fallacy. But it is a serious question.

4) James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.

Wouldn't it be good for you to sell your TV and use the money to feed the poor? Surely your TV causes you to sin - remember, if your right hand causes you to sin, what should you do with it?

Sin is brought forth through lust.

James 1:14-15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death.

Lust causes us to break YHWH's laws. Faith causes us to keep them and avoid sin.

Lust is natural and inevitable. God created us with it. While your proposition here is self-consistent, it paints theology as pure lunacy.
 
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