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The Definition of Monagamy -- a poll (r1)

Sally and Sue had a 3 year relationship, was it mongamous?

  • Yes, it was monogamous if they were committed to each other

  • No, the relationship was too short to be monogamous

  • There is a third answer


Results are only viewable after voting.

MercyBurst

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Mentiroso!

If you judge commitment by one gay couple then you must also judge commitment by a straight couple

Precisely :clap:


and your entire monogamy argument is found sagging and limp,

well umm... actually your definition of monogamy is found ....non-existent..

unable to lift itself from the darkest depths where you went searching to find it.

umm yeah...."gay monogamy" is rather dark now that you mention it..... :sorry:
 
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MercyBurst

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I think he already answered that. If they intend to be monogamous, they are monogamous until they have sex with someone else, however long that may be. 10 minutes, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 years.

In other words "intentions" define monogamy regardless of whether there is any real substance behind those intentions. The intentions you have just stated are not a true basis for marriage. Genuine love doesn't cross the moral bounderies whenever somebody more attractive comes along. Genuine love "forsakes all others until death do us part." If it's not that kind of a commitment, then it's not genuine love, and it is not a basis for a marriage, regardless of whether it's gay or straight.

Now consider the gay definition of monogamy. Apparantly when someone is looking for a monogamous relationship (whatever that means), they can have sex in a one night stand, and that is justified (using the gay definition of monogamy, whatever that is) because the intention is to eventually become monogamous with somebody (whoever that might be if anyone at all). I must admit, in all honesty that sounds rather promiscuous.

Does this pretty well capture the gay spectrum of "monogamy"? If not, then please clarify the criteria for monogamy.
 
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MercyBurst

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Why did you include false information in the OP in the first place?

SughaNSpice sez it's false -- must be then.... can you prove it?

Prove that "gay monogamy" is indeed equal to the monogamy required for marriage.

Looking at the poll I'd say it's rather unlikely.
 
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MercyBurst

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Why? Because this is an extended exercise in question-begging.

I've provided the criteria for monogamy in marriage. Real love is a commitment that lasts a lifetime.

I didn't decide I wanted new parents after 3 years in their home -- that's because I love them.

This concept of a "monogamous relationship" you gay-advocates propose is not real love. That's what I've learned from this excercise.

Here is what the Bible says about love:

1Cr 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
1Cr 13:5 It is not rude, it is not self‑seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
1Cr 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
1Cr 13:7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
1Cr 13:8 Love never fails.

Real Love NEVER EVER FAILS ...period.. end of sentence. Im sorry, but broken relationships weren't made out of the real thing.
 
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MercyBurst

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Of course: monogamy is whatever MercyBurst says it is, and his definition is different if the couple is gay or lesbian!

If I had realized this thread was an exercise in mind-reading I'd've been out way before now.

I don't hold gays to a higher standard than straights regarding monogamy.

Monogamy is defined by love. Apparantly gays are willing to accept a whole lot less than the real deal. Real love lasts a lifetime. That is my standard for monogamy ---real love, and it is based on the Bible.

I am sorry for some of you. I would be very depressed with such a short-term view of human relationships. Reading some of the studies on aging gay men, depression is apparantly a reality for them after teezing apart all the social, economic, partnering relationship, and cultural factors.

Here's a study on Aging Gay Men from the IASR Presentations:

Psychological well-being in older homosexual and bisexual men

Kertzner, R.M., Dolezal C. HIV Center for Clinical and Behavioral Studies, New York State Psychiatric Institute, New York NY, USA


A multi-dimensional model of psychological health in homosexual and bisexual men over forty may help tease apart reciprocal socio-cultural and individual mental heath influences on subjective reports of well-being in this population. These influences include heterosexually-oriented social age norms; age norms within gay sexual culture; more universal aspects of psychological change associated with aging; and the expression of underlying psychiatric diatheses, when present. Previous studies report levels of self-acceptance in older gay men that were comparable to heterosexual peers and higher than in young gay men, although these findings were based on convenience samples.

In a secondary data analysis of a probability sample study of midlife development in adults in the United States (the MIDUS survey), the authors examined the effects of sexual orientation and age on six dimensions of psychological well-being in men, adjusting for education, income, partnership status, self-reported health status, and depressive symptomatology. Classification of sexual orientation was based on whether respondents were attracted to women, men, or both (N=1730 heterosexual, 31 homosexual and 26 bisexual men); for data analytic purposes, the homosexual and bisexual groups were combined. The main outcome variable in this analysis was Ryff’s assessment of psychological well-being, comprised of subscales measuring personal autonomy, environmental mastery, personal growth, positive relations with others, sense of purpose in life, and self-acceptance (Ryff, 1989). In multiple linear regression analyses, interactive effects of homosexual/bisexual status and older age (> 40 years of age) predicted lower scores on two dimensions of psychological well-being, sense of purpose in life and self-acceptance; these effects remained significant after adjusting for the above co-variates (sense of purpose in life, Beta -.068 [p .03]; self-acceptance, Beta -.063 [p .04]).

These findings suggest that in a sample of homosexual and bisexual men defined by sexual attraction, older age is associated with less sense of purpose in life and self-acceptance. These results should be interpreted with consideration of how sexual orientation was defined, the inclusion of homosexual and bisexual men together for data analytic purposes, generational age-cohort effects, and modest effect sizes. Nonetheless, sexual orientation together with age may be an important factor influencing dimensions of psychological well-being which are sensitive to age norms that define valued social identities and roles.
 
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Vene

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I've provided the criteria for monogamy in marriage. Real love is a commitment that lasts a lifetime.

I didn't decide I wanted new parents after 3 years in their home -- that's because I love them.

This concept of a "monogamous relationship" you gay-advocates propose is not real love. That's what I've learned from this excercise.

Here is what the Bible says about love:

1Cr 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
1Cr 13:5 It is not rude, it is not self‑seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
1Cr 13:6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
1Cr 13:7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
1Cr 13:8 Love never fails.

Real Love NEVER EVER FAILS ...period.. end of sentence. Im sorry, but broken relationships weren't made out of the real thing.
If that's the definition you want, then TrueLove™ is as rare for heterosexual couples as homosexual couples.
 
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Joykins

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Monogamy is not "defined as love." If you insist on applying a meaning to a word that no one else in the world uses, you are condemned to be perpetually misunderstood.

I think it's time to trot out Humpty Dumpty again...

`I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'


`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'
 
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MercyBurst

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Monogamy is not "defined as love." If you insist on applying a meaning to a word that no one else in the world uses, you are condemned to be perpetually misunderstood.

The definition I'm using is in the dictionary, so it's not "just me."

A marriage made with real love lasts a lifetime. Without real love it fails.

mo·nog·a·my n.

  1. The practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time.
    1. The practice or condition of being married to only one person at a time.
    2. The practice of marrying only once in a lifetime.
Source: monogamy. Dictionary.com. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/monogamy (accessed: June 15, 2008).
__________________
 
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Joykins

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The definition I'm using is in the dictionary, so it's not "just me."

A marriage made with real love lasts a lifetime. Without real love it fails.

Nonsense. If you don't let anyone divorce or remarry, they're basically stuck. Love or not.

mo·nog·a·my n.

  1. The practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time.
    1. The practice or condition of being married to only one person at a time.
    2. The practice of marrying only once in a lifetime.
Source: monogamy. Dictionary.com. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Houghton Mifflin Company, 2004. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/monogamy (accessed: June 15, 2008).
__________________

Apparently I'm looking for love in all the wrong places....where is it...ah!


mo·nog·a·my n.

  1. The practice or condition of having a single sexual partner during a period of time.
    1. The practice or condition of being married to only one person at a time.
    2. The practice of marrying only once in a lifetime.



There are 3 definitions there. Which one is the gay one?
 
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ChaliceThunder

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I don't hold gays to a higher standard than straights regarding monogamy.

Monogamy is defined by love. Apparantly gays are willing to accept a whole lot less than the real deal. Real love lasts a lifetime. That is my standard for monogamy ---real love, and it is based on the Bible.

Real love does last a life time.

I have just passed the moment in time when I can say that I have spent over half of my life with the one man with whom God has joined me. (he can say the same thing too, since we are only 3 months apart)

THAT is a lifetime - not that I live by your standards and definitions - but if I did, I would certainly qualify.
 
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MercyBurst

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Nonsense. If you don't let anyone divorce or remarry, they're basically stuck. Love or not.

What you call "stuck", many of us married folks call "commitment." Marriage is a commitment and it can't work without love. Ask any marriage counselor.

Commitment is loving your other for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, forsaking all others, as long as we both shall live. These ARE the marriage vows my wife and I both married to, and it's standard fare at a wedding. Ask any marriage counselor if you don't believe it.


Apparently I'm looking for love in all the wrong places....where is it...ah!


There are 3 definitions there. Which one is the gay one?

That's what I've been trying to figure out, and that's why I opened the OP and asked "what is gay monogamy"? The answer is that "gay monogamy" contains an imperfect love at its very best.
 
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MercyBurst

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Real love does last a life time.

I have just passed the moment in time when I can say that I have spent over half of my life with the one man with whom God has joined me. (he can say the same thing too, since we are only 3 months apart)

THAT is a lifetime - not that I live by your standards and definitions - but if I did, I would certainly qualify.

Chalice,

That would meet some of the requirements of a monogamous relationship. On the otherhand, has the relationship been tested with the downsides of aging, health issues, family conflicts, economic woes, and loss of physical attraction? Maybe your relationship has survived these tests as well.

Secondly, I don't think your relationship will ever be perfected as God made marriage to work. God's perfect plan yields a family. Some opposite sex marriages fail in this area because of sterility (a health issue), and some result in divorce because of it. Adoption is an alternative, but with gay marriage it's the ONLY alternative. Sterility is ALWAYS the outcome of gay partnering.

That's why I believe gay partnering isn't God's will. Why would God give people the perfect ability to reproduce but not with each other in a same-sex relationship? Either God is rather cruel, or it wasn't His will.
 
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Joykins

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What you call "stuck", many of us married folks call "commitment." Marriage is a commitment and it can't work without love. Ask any marriage counselor.

Define "work." It is still monogamy if you live together even if you hate each other and use your children to carry message to one another. A "working" i.e. healthy marriage is obviously best, but other marriages are still marriages no matter how dysfunctional.

Commitment is loving your other for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, forsaking all others, as long as we both shall live. These ARE the marriage vows my wife and I both married to, and it's standard fare at a wedding. Ask any marriage counselor if you don't believe it.

Why would any marriage counselor know what particular vows you took with your wife :scratch:


That's what I've been trying to figure out, and that's why I opened the OP and asked "what is gay monogamy"? The answer is that "gay monogamy" contains an imperfect love at its very best.

Whereas heterosexuals who also intend well and divorce or break up are somehow qualitatively different or better? Oh, please.
 
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Vene

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That's what I've been trying to figure out, and that's why I opened the OP and asked "what is gay monogamy"? The answer is that "gay monogamy" contains an imperfect love at its very best.
No, the answer is that there is no difference in standards. Just realize that monogamy as a lifetime commitment is not the norm for hetero couples. Or do I really have to pull out the divorce statistics?
 
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Crazy Liz

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Chalice,

That would meet some of the requirements of a monogamous relationship. On the otherhand, has the relationship been tested with the downsides of aging, health issues, family conflicts, economic woes, and loss of physical attraction? Maybe your relationship has survived these tests as well.

Secondly, I don't think your relationship will ever be perfected as God made marriage to work. God's perfect plan yields a family. Some opposite sex marriages fail in this area because of sterility (a health issue), and some result in divorce because of it. Adoption is an alternative, but with gay marriage it's the ONLY alternative. Sterility is ALWAYS the outcome of gay partnering.

That's why I believe gay partnering isn't God's will. Why would God give people the perfect ability to reproduce but not with each other in a same-sex relationship? Either God is rather cruel, or it wasn't His will.

Interesting last paragraph.

It parallels the most common argument used by Christian gays perfectly. That's why many believe gay partnering must be God's will. Why would God give people the perfect ability to love but not with anyone they are attracted to? Why would God make sexual people and then tell them they are condemned either to a life of celibacy or to an empty relationship? Either God is rather cruel, or it wasn't His will.

It seems using your logic, there is only one possible answer. God is cruel.
 
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