The Definition of Monagamy -- a poll (r1)

[Thekla]

The Bible does not call this adultery. Adultery was called when David took another man's wife, but not when he took single women or widows or even the wife's handmaid. Same with Abraham, Jacob, etc.

as in the other thread, the OT is in part 'developmental'; as we move historically, and personally, closer to Christ one seems to undergo a shift from -if you will- rights to responsibilities, owing to the NT recognition that the person belongs to the Creator. Monogamy is, IIRC, one example of this shift; ie women are not 'owned' by any but God, and are fully persons in their own right.

(as a side note, at least in the west IIRC, the modern notion of human person was developed as a result of Christianity)

 

[Joykins]

as in the other thread, the OT is in part 'developmental'; as we move historically, and personally, closer to Christ one seems to undergo a shift from -if you will- rights to responsibilities, owing to the NT recognition that the person belongs to the Creator. Monogamy is, IIRC, one example of this shift; ie women are not 'owned' by any but God, and are fully persons in their own right.

(as a side note, at least in the west IIRC, the modern notion of human person was developed as a result of Christianity)

I don't argue this.

I am arguing that the opposite of monogamy is not adultery or fornication or promiscuity, but polygamy. For sequential but exclusive 1:1 sexual relationships the term serial monogamy could be used--and this could be either following widowhood, divorce, or other relationship breakup.

I think the concepts of fidelity and marriage are being deliberately fuzzified in this thread.

 

[Thekla]

I don't argue this.

I am arguing that the opposite of monogamy is not adultery or fornication or promiscuity, but polygamy. For sequential but exclusive 1:1 sexual relationships the term serial monogamy could be used--and this could be either following widowhood, divorce, or other relationship breakup.

I think the concepts of fidelity and marriage are being deliberately fuzzified in this thread.

thanks

so, in this sense, infidelity is defined as taking place outside the sphere of marriage -whether it is polygamous or monogamous ?

 

[Joykins]

thanks

so, in this sense, infidelity is defined as taking place outside the sphere of marriage -whether it is polygamous or monogamous ?

Yes.

Or, for the secondary definition of "monogamy", if it is outside the sphere of a committed relationship that was intended to be 1:1 (as for polyamory, I don't really know what poly folks consider infidelity.)

 

[SughaNSpice]

Definition of Monagamy -- a Poll

Am I the only one who read the link?...The information presented is misleading and a blatant misrepresentation of the sources by this commission…as far as I can tell this was something originally put out by Focus on the Family…a group notorious for being dishonest…It looks like thier stuff...


They misrepresent the study of Maria Xiridou…but a lot of Christians do that…but that doesn’t make it right…Is there anybody who doesn’t know it was about the sexual practices of nonmonogamous men with AIDS? Everyone over the age of thirty was excluded from the study, everyone who was HIV-negative was excluded (unless he was a partner of someone HIV-positive), and, most importantly, all monogamous couples were excluded! .... When you exclude monogamous couples from a study, it should come as no surprise that the non-monogamous couples you are studying are, well, not monogamous. … And when you exclude everyone over the age of thirty from a study, you will not find many long-lasting relationships…How many 25 year olds are able to celebrate their 30th anniversary?...How can you claim anything about monogamy of anyone when you exclude monogamous couples?


Eugene Volokh???...why is a law professor considered to be an expert on what is essentially a sociological question?... .its nice that he “estimates” that ‘the average American gay has twice as many lifetime sex partners as does the average straight male’ …but why would his “estimate” be valid?...I have read some real studies here on these forums showing his estimate isn’t true…so why aren’t they being used? … or is it because the real studies don’t support the desired conclusions?


Jonathon Rauch???...a journalist….not a social scientist…again why are experts ignored in favor of someone like this?...


Dennis Altman is misquoted here…Altman was actually criticizing claims about the lack of long lasting monogamous relationships of gay men…if the “commission” had quoted the entire sentence form Altman that would have been obvious.


David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison’s… They never claimed what they were writing was about gays and lesbians at all….their 1984 book was about a handful of couples they knew personallyin 1984.

 

[CaDan]

Eugene Volokh???...why is a law professor considered to be an expert on what is essentially a sociological question?... .its nice that he “estimates” that ‘the average American gay has twice as many lifetime sex partners as does the average straight male’ …but why would his “estimate” be valid?...I have read some real studies here on these forums showing his estimate isn’t true…so why aren’t they being used? … or is it because the real studies don’t support the desired conclusions?

Don't be ragging on Prof. Volokh. The then-GOP majority in the New Hampshire House took his statements out of context to reach their tendentious conclusion.

http://volokh.com/2003_06_22_volokh_archive.html#105618042499084603

As Prof. Dale Carpenter (University of Minnesota Law School) writes:

A very keen observer and blogger, law professor Eugene Volokh, has taken a look at the surveys and studies and concluded that the differences between gays and straights in numbers of sexual partners is not very large. And it should be noted that these small differences in levels of promiscuity have occurred under a culture and legal system that gives scant incentive for gays to settle down into couples.​

http://www.marriagedebate.com/2003/08/myth-of-gay-promiscuity-dale-carpenter.htm

 

[Texas Lynn]

What if two people on a tanker headed from Sumatra to El Segundo hook up just after they cross the international dateline, but, there's a typhoon afterward, which blows them back across it into yesterday. So the adultery never really happened, right?

 

[CaDan]

What if two people on a tanker headed from Sumatra to El Segundo hook up just after they cross the international dateline, but, there's a typhoon afterward, which blows them back across it into yesterday. So the adultery never really happened, right?

And what if there were flying monkeys overhead? Flying monkeys sent by an Enemy of Dorothy?

 

[Thekla]

What if two people on a tanker headed from Sumatra to El Segundo hook up just after they cross the international dateline, but, there's a typhoon afterward, which blows them back across it into yesterday. So the adultery never really happened, right?

although not directly related to the OP, this is an interesting question; in the eastern Christian tradition, marriage occurs within the body of Christ. Although no longer exclusively performed in conjunction with the Liturgy, the service still begins with the Liturgical statement (which acts not only as invocation, but a statement of spiritual location) "Blessed is the kingdom of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit". In this sense, the marriage is a spiritual and communal (Christian) event, and time as creature (created time) has a limited significance.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Am I the only one who read the link?...The information presented is misleading and a blatant misrepresentation of the sources by this commission…as far as I can tell this was something originally put out by Focus on the Family…a group notorious for being dishonest…It looks like thier stuff...


They misrepresent the study of Maria Xiridou…but a lot of Christians do that…but that doesn’t make it right…Is there anybody who doesn’t know it was about the sexual practices of nonmonogamous men with AIDS? Everyone over the age of thirty was excluded from the study, everyone who was HIV-negative was excluded (unless he was a partner of someone HIV-positive), and, most importantly, all monogamous couples were excluded! .... When you exclude monogamous couples from a study, it should come as no surprise that the non-monogamous couples you are studying are, well, not monogamous. … And when you exclude everyone over the age of thirty from a study, you will not find many long-lasting relationships…How many 25 year olds are able to celebrate their 30th anniversary?...How can you claim anything about monogamy of anyone when you exclude monogamous couples?


Eugene Volokh???...why is a law professor considered to be an expert on what is essentially a sociological question?... .its nice that he “estimates” that ‘the average American gay has twice as many lifetime sex partners as does the average straight male’ …but why would his “estimate” be valid?...I have read some real studies here on these forums showing his estimate isn’t true…so why aren’t they being used? … or is it because the real studies don’t support the desired conclusions?


Jonathon Rauch???...a journalist….not a social scientist…again why are experts ignored in favor of someone like this?...


Dennis Altman is misquoted here…Altman was actually criticizing claims about the lack of long lasting monogamous relationships of gay men…if the “commission” had quoted the entire sentence form Altman that would have been obvious.


David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison’s… They never claimed what they were writing was about gays and lesbians at all….their 1984 book was about a handful of couples they knew personallyin 1984.

A Big thanks to SughaNSpice for taking the time and effort to read the links and research the false statements being made.

Welcome to the forums Sugha

Someone rep the lady for me

 

[MercyBurst]

Am I the only one who read the link?...The information presented is misleading and a blatant misrepresentation of the sources by this commission…as far as I can tell this was something originally put out by Focus on the Family…a group notorious for being dishonest…It looks like thier stuff...

It looks like maybe you are the only person that DID NOT read the OP link because it goes straight to the New Hampshire government web-site, not to Focus on the Family. Your post reeks of more "conspiracy theory" spam like we typically hear from a forumite that shows up soley for the purpose of conjuring a gay persecution complex.

The commission didn't just read books to come to their conclusions -- they also interviewed gay advocates. The poll confirms the Commission report's findings cited in the OP. It looks spot on, and footnote 35 (in the report) makes the appropriate caveats for "lifetime gay partners."

They misrepresent the study of Maria Xiridou...Eugene Volokh???...

Jonathon Rauch???...

Dennis Altman is misquoted here…

David McWhirter and Andrew Mattison’s....

At a mere 10 posts, we're supposed to take you seriously...???

 

[MercyBurst]

A Big thanks to SughaNSpice for taking the time and effort to read the links and research the false statements being made.

Welcome to the forums Sugha

Someone rep the lady for me

And wouldn't ya know, BigBadWlf shows up to nurture his conspiracy theory with a spam partner no less.

Rather than veering off subject, as you are so well known to do, why not look at the poll results and the comments from gay participants in this thread that confirm the New Hampshire Commission's majority view on "gay monogamy"?

You are rather late in the thread and I see you have a "10 post" newbie as your tag-team partner, and reeking of dirty socks.
Your comments are nothing more than spam and yet another reason to close this forum...

 

[Vene]

It looks like maybe you are the only person that DID NOT read the OP link because it goes straight to the New Hampshire government web-site, not to Focus on the Family. Your post reeks of more "conspiracy theory" spam like we typically hear from a forumite that shows up soley for the purpose of conjuring a gay persecution complex.

Not, that is not a site owned by the government of New Hampshire, if it was the end of the link would be .gov instead of .com. That site is owned by house Republicans in New Hampshire. Would you trust a report issued by house Democrats as unbiased?

The commission didn't just read books to come to their conclusions -- they also interviewed gay advocates. The poll confirms the Commission report's findings cited in the OP. It looks spot on, and footnote 35 (in the report) makes the appropriate caveats for "lifetime gay partners."

You only have the personal experience of a single man when you make this conclusion. Tell me, is a single man representative of an entire group of people? I know! I'll use Fred Phelps as the representative of all heterosexual men!

At a mere 10 posts, we're supposed to take you seriously...???

I guess you can't refute the points so you attack the poster. Real classy of you. I'm sure you would make Jesus proud.

 

[Thekla]

And what if there were flying monkeys overhead? Flying monkeys sent by an Enemy of Dorothy?

well, then you call in these guys

 

[Tenebrae]

Thats a bent poll and it doesnt cover the actual definition of monogamy


Monogamy is defined as having 1 mate in a relationship. It is not defined by length of a relationship.


So, during that three year relationship did Sally and Sue stay exclusive to each other, or did they involve other people in the relationship. If they stayed exclusive to each other, they it was a monogamous relationship, if they involved a third or other people in their relationship then no it wasnt mongamous.


However if you want to do a poll on monogamy how about putting the actual definition of monogamy instead of something else

 

[MercyBurst]

Thats a bent poll and it doesnt cover the actual definition of monogamy


Monogamy is defined as having 1 mate in a relationship. It is not defined by length of a relationship.


So, during that three year relationship did Sally and Sue stay exclusive to each other, or did they involve other people in the relationship. If they stayed exclusive to each other, they it was a monogamous relationship, if they involved a third or other people in their relationship then no it wasnt mongamous.

However if you want to do a poll on monogamy how about putting the actual definition of monogamy instead of something else

OK then, what if Sally and Sue are have a relationship lasting 1 night with no third party involved? Your definition says one night can be monogamous since there is no time limit.

What if Sally and Sue have a one-time relationship lasting 10 minutes with no third party involved, would that be monogamous too?

 

[Tenebrae]

OK then, what if Sally and Sue are have a relationship lasting 1 night with no third party involved? Your definition says one night can be monogamous since there is no time limit.

What if Sally and Sue have a one-time relationship lasting 10 minutes with no third party involved, would that be monogamous too?

Monogamy is not defined as length of a relationship


People dont have one night relationships, thats known as a one night stand, or having a booty call. The only time it would be classified as a relationship would be in the vary rare instance when a couple have married, and then one mate was killed or died from an illness within 24 hours of them getting married. But even then they have the relationship before they got married


When you want to have a discussion with the correctly defined terms let me know

 

[Crazy Liz]

OK then, what if Sally and Sue are have a relationship lasting 1 night with no third party involved? Your definition says one night can be monogamous since there is no time limit.

What if Sally and Sue have a one-time relationship lasting 10 minutes with no third party involved, would that be monogamous too?

Were you in a monogamous relationship the day after you married your wife?

10 minutes after you married her?

If she had died the next year, your relationship would not have been long enough to be monogamous?

 

[MercyBurst]

Not, that is not a site owned by the government of New Hampshire, if it was the end of the link would be .gov instead of .com.

True... However, the report is published as "the Majority View" with Republicans holding the majority in the NH legislature. The Republicans have not alterred their view, as far as I know.

That site is owned by house Republicans in New Hampshire. Would you trust a report issued by house Democrats as unbiased?

I would trust a Democrat report to reflect the minority opinion. There is a minority opinion on SB 427, but I haven't bothered reading it. If you come up with something different, then by all means -- let us know.

You only have the personal experience of a single man when you make this conclusion. Tell me, is a single man representative of an entire group of people? I know! I'll use Fred Phelps as the representative of all heterosexual men! I guess you can't refute the points so you attack the poster.

Can't refute what points? Attack what poster?

So you have to bring up Fred Phelps a democrat and a civil rights attorney for african americans, I keep telling tulc that the gay-advocates need to stop bringing him up, but no-no-no, he's a fundie stereotype. He brought down the Jim Crowe laws in Kansas.

Real classy of you. I'm sure you would make Jesus proud.

Maybe if I knew what you were talking about I could respond, but I just hear somebody that's upset about the facts.

I think the real problem here is that you don't like the poll results.

I hear you say the commission findings were wrong about gay partnering, then I look at the poll, and it says you are wrong. You certainly aren't speaking for the polsters. They agree that monogamy in the gay sense can be rather short-lived (3 years or less). This is the same conclusion found in the commission report -- so gripe all you want.

 

[BigBadWlf]

It looks like maybe you are the only person that DID NOT read the OP link because it goes straight to the New Hampshire government web-site, not to Focus on the Family. Your post reeks of more "conspiracy theory" spam like we typically hear from a forumite that shows up soley for the purpose of conjuring a gay persecution complex.

The commission didn't just read books to come to their conclusions -- they also interviewed gay advocates. The poll confirms the Commission report's findings cited in the OP. It looks spot on, and footnote 35 (in the report) makes the appropriate caveats for "lifetime gay partners."



At a mere 10 posts, we're supposed to take you seriously...???

4990+ posts doesn’t make what you are presenting true. I never trust what you post to be honest and anyone who is smart will verify your claims. And when your OP claims were looked into, it was found that they were not true, what a surprise.



Also I could not help but notices that you didn’t actually address the fact that the information presented was false you just flamed someone smart enough to check what you presented and brave enough to present the truth