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The definition of EMBEDDED AGE

Paulos23

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You betcha, I do. He wants the credit --- He gets it. Credit where credit is due.

OK, fine.

Good --- because that's not what I say. Embedded history is Omphalism, and I'm not Omphalos. Instead, I say God embedded age. (I know --- I still lose credibility, right? Since you're so hell-bent on making me look incredulous.)

Fine, so it is embedded age. There is still no evidence that he did it the way your saying he did it. Why make the universe, make it look like it has been running for billions of years when he just made it, leaving no evidence that he did this. And then have someone write a book that has no physical evidence supporting it.

Why the act? Why the deception? This makes no sense.

I would think if God wanted worshippers he would leave some better evidence behind.
 
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AV1611VET

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Why the deception?

:sigh:

It's like I say --- it's not like He hasn't been accused of this before.

Matthew 27:63 said:
Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
 
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Paulos23

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:sigh:

It's like I say --- it's not like He hasn't been accused of this before.

You still didn't answer the question. Come on AV, this is your big chance to show us why we should believe in your idea of God.

Why the deception? And if you think it is not a deception, why isn't it a deception?
 
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AV1611VET

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You still didn't answer the question. Come on AV, this is your big chance to show us why we should believe in your idea of God.

Why the deception? And if you think it is not a deception, why isn't it a deception?

It's not deception when He documented what He did, when He did it, why He did it, how He did it, where He did it, and who the eyewitnesses were --- is it?
 
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Paulos23

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It's not deception when He documented what He did, when He did it, why He did it, how He did it, where He did it, and who the eyewitnesses were --- is it?

And yet the physical evidence doesn't support the documentation. We have learned a lot and have done much poking and prodding the universe and coming up with our own manual of how the universe works (a manual that admittedly incomplete).

If that documentation is from God then he has lied about how the world works, as well as how the world was made. What you have given us AV is the best reason to chuck the Bible, or at least the first book in it.
 
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Psudopod

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If that documentation is from God then he has lied about how the world works, as well as how the world was made. What you have given us AV is the best reason to chuck the Bible, or at least the first book in it.

Not to mention not trust the bible on anything else it says.
 
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Nathan Poe

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It's not deception when He documented what He did, when He did it, why He did it, how He did it, where He did it, and who the eyewitnesses were --- is it?

Too bad He didn't do that -- might have helped if He did.

Besides, even if He did. why should I believe a confessed liar?
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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MOK, I've used this example before only once --- I'll bring it up again, since you seem to be sincere in trying to convince me that I'm wrong.
I'm sincere in trying to eradicate absurd beliefs from the universe. If yours is absurd then, yes, I'm trying to convince you you're wrong. If not, you can demonstrate otherwise.

Let me state beforehand that I do not think this is how God did it. This example is just to show you one way that it can be done logically.
OK, fair enough, but... why not tell me how you think God did it?

If a second dimension of time existed, one could go out at 10:00:00, enter the 2nd dimension, mow his lawn, take a shower, read the paper, then return and resume his duties.

While his watch may say 17:00:00 (5pm), a clock on the wall of his house would still read 10:00:00. Yet the lawn is mowed, he has taken a shower and read the paper.

God could have created Adam on the 6th day at 06:00:00, entered him into a 2nd dimension of time for 30 years, then returned him to 06:00:00 --- and voila --- a 30 year-old-man in the blink of an eye.

HOWEVER --- there's a problem with this. Adam, in those 30 years has acquired a memory of things he did then. He may have a few scars. Tooth decay - (okay skip that one). Longer hair. A deeper voice, etc.

So, to circumvent this, God could have created Adam on the 6th day at 06:00:00. Entered him into the 2nd dimension for 30 years, then brought him back to 06:00:00 in pristine, perfect condition, with no memory of events, no longer hair, no cuts or bruises, no nothing.

And while I do believe in a 2nd (and 3rd) dimensions of time, I emphatically do not believe God used them to embed age into His Creation.

Ah, but my objection was to the inherent logical contradiction of age being time in existence. This explanation you've given still uses time in existence, just in a different dimension: Adam is 30 years old because he's existed for 30 years (somewhere, somehow). That's fine, but seems to contradict the stance you were taking before that God could create maturity without history. Your explanation has history -- history in another dimension, yes, but history nonetheless.

Beyond that, I don't know if there's much point dealing with the details of this, since you've said you don't actually believe it. But...

I also don't see how this isn't functionally equivalent to Omphalism. Or, technically, "reverse Omphalism", I guess. Off-the-shelf, vanilla-flavored Omphalism has God create Adam last Thursday with implanted memory of the last 30 years; you've just gone the other way: God creates Adam 30 years ago and erases all memories except those since last Thursday. The difference is cosmetic, the similarity is fundamental: you still have a God doing one thing but pulling tricks to make it appear to be something else.

And, of course, none of this gets around the theological problem of why God is deceptive, when the Bible clearly states that God is not so. So far, your only answer to that seems to be that He provided the Bible so that we're not deceived. Why? Why not just make it not deceptive in the first place? Is God not omnipotent? Is God not Truth? Suppose I made a car; the car has three pedals under the steering wheel; the one in the middle says "brake" on it; every time you push it, the cars slows down; but the owner's manual says "the middle pedal is the time-delayed ejector seat"; would you believe it? why should you? sure, it could be true that eventually you'll be flung violently out of the car for having pushed the "brake" pedal, but all the evidence suggests that it's just a regular brake pedal. Why would you take me seriously if I did such a thing? And what possible pure motive could I have for that? If I wanted people to avoid the middle pedal, I'd put it somewhere that didn't make it look like a brake, label it "warning: ejector seat!", and (if possible*) make sure the car didn't slow down when you pushed it.

Bottom line: this theology speaks very poorly of God. But perhaps I shouldn't hold God to a "higher standard"?


*which it is, of course, because I'm omniscient and omnipotent
 
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MasterOfKrikkit

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If that documentation is from God then he has lied about how the world works, as well as how the world was made. What you have given us AV is the best reason to chuck the Bible, or at least the first book in it.

Exactly. Assuming that God has provided two references (the world and the Word) why do they not agree? And why should we take the word (ahahaha) of one over the other? If that's the choice, I'd say you'd evaluate the track records of the two. In the case of explaining the physical world, the track record of science beats the track record of the Bible. So... if the shoe fits... (That's not to say that Bible doesn't necessarily have a good record in other areas.)
 
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Loudmouth

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Let me put it this way. If He did - (and I'm not convinced He did) --- but if He did, then I'm thankful for the fact that He documented Genesis 1, which shows us that evolution did not occur.

Then why did God go to all the trouble to make fossils of creature that never lived and make zircons that indicate that these non-existent creatures changed over time if He really did it another way?

Or there is a much more likely scenario. Genesis was not written by a deity who created the universe. It was written by people who had very little knowledge of how the universe actually came about.

Maybe God will write a new book entitled "If I Did It".
 
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Nathan Poe

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It's not deception when He documented what He did, when He did it, why He did it, how He did it, where He did it, and who the eyewitnesses were --- is it?


Funny thing about those eyewitnesses -- they're all dead and gone, but their descendants to this day tell us "Nope, it didn't happen like that at all."

So who should I believe: you or them?
 
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AV1611VET

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Funny thing about those eyewitnesses -- they're all dead and gone...

Not hardly ... they were here before Adam was even created ... and they're still here today. Death doesn't affect them, it affects us.

Lucifer was one of them, and he's still around.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Not hardly ... they were here before Adam was even created ... and they're still here today. Death doesn't affect them, it affects us.

I see -- and do you converse with these immortal eyewitnesses often?

Lucifer was one of them, and he's still around.

Well, if you can't trust Lucifer, then who can you trust? :cool:
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Not hardly ... they were here before Adam was even created ... and they're still here today. Death doesn't affect them, it affects us.

Lucifer was one of them, and he's still around.
Having an eyewitness we cannot talk to is just as useful as having no eyewitness at all.
 
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AV1611VET

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Having an eyewitness we cannot talk to is just as useful as having no eyewitness at all.

Nevertheless, they are still eyewitnesses; and although you cannot talk to them, their reactions were documented and preserved.
 
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MrGoodBytes

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Nevertheless, they are still eyewitnesses; and although you cannot talk to them, their reactions were documented and preserved.
And we know that the documentation is reliable because there are eyewitnesses, and although we can't talk to the eyewitnesses, we know that they exist because the documentation says so. Round and round we go.
 
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