The debate about forgiving -- is it just priests that forgive?

[YahuahSaves]

I was focusing on Romans 5:12-19 in the current discussion.

But of course, if you rather move away from that, to other scriptures, you will naturally think I am dodging your questions, just as I think you are dodging mine.

We're talking about forgiveness. the scriptures I shared are relevant to the thread. Do you believe once we're saved, we're always saved and never have to ask for forgiveness or repent after we are redeemed by Christ?

 

[Guojing]

We're talking about forgiveness. the scriptures I shared are relevant to the thread. Do you believe once we're saved, we're always saved and never have to ask for forgiveness or repent after we are redeemed by Christ?

Under the gospel of grace preached by Paul to us in the Body of Christ, yes. I come to that conclusion because of Romans 5:12-19.

To understand how I came to that conclusion, you have to address the 2 questions I have asked. You are free to disagree still I have no problems with that.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Under the gospel of grace preached by Paul to us in the Body of Christ, yes. I come to that conclusion because of Romans 5:12-19.

To understand how I came to that conclusion, you have to address the 2 questions I have asked. You are free to disagree still I have no problems with that.

Paul also warned followers about sin and potentially falling away. Does the scripture contradict itself?

Hebrews 10:26
1 John 3:6
Romans 6:1-2
John 5:14
1 Corinthians 15:34
John 8:11

 

[Guojing]

Paul also warned followers about sin and potentially falling away. Does the scripture contradict itself?

Hebrews 10:26
1 John 3:6
Romans 6:1-2
John 5:14
1 Corinthians 15:34
John 8:11

Care to explain how Romans 6:1-2 and 1 Corinthians 15:34 is about losing salvation?

 

[YahuahSaves]

Care to explain how Romans 6:1-2 and 1 Corinthians 15:34 is about losing salvation?

If you continue reading the chapter, it is clear we're still presented with choice. And if we sin and choose not to repent of that sin, we risk falling away.

Romans 6:15-16

15 Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living

again, more context of 1 Corinthians is needed. If we start thinking like non-believers and believe we are always saved no matter what we do and never again need to repent of sin, we end up corrupting ourselves.

32 And what value was there in fighting wild beasts—those people of Ephesus[f]—if there will be no resurrection from the dead? And if there is no resurrection, “Let’s feast and drink, for tomorrow we die!”[g] 33 Don’t be fooled by those who say such things, for “bad company corrupts good character.” 34 Think carefully about what is right, and stop sinning. For to your shame I say that some of you don’t know God at all.

We also have to look at what Jesus said about salvation:

Matthew 24:12-14
Matthew 7:21

We see in these passages, Acts 19:13-16 only those born-again by the Holy Spirit can cast out demons, so in the above quoted scripture,
Matthew 7:21 Jesus is specifically talking about those born-again who will not inherit the kingdom.


Scripture on willful sin:

Hebrews 10:26-31
2 Peter 2:20
1 Corinthians 6:9
Galatians 5:19

 

[Guojing]

If you continue reading the chapter, it is clear we're still presented with choice. And if we sin and choose not to repent of that sin, we risk falling away.

Romans 6:15-16

15 Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living

Again if you truly understand what Paul was explaining in Romans 5:12-19, you will come to a different understanding of this passage.

I dunno what version you are using above but let us use the KJV

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin unto death refers to Adam's disobedience that cause all of us to die
Obedience unto righteousness again refers to Christ's obedience on the cross that gave us righteousness.

This Romans 6 passage has nothing to do with our disobedience or obedience.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I dunno what version you are using above but let us use the KJV

A more modern one that is a better English translation of the original hebrew.

This Romans 6 passage has nothing to do with our disobedience or obedience.

It has to do with what spirit we follow, and the hope that those born-again by the spirit don't willfully sin. If you read the entire letter, he describes slavery as a choice, and urges the fellow believers to make the right choice to submit to God's will instead of their own. Roman's 5 does not indicate we are free to sin after redemption through Christ and still be automatically forgiven without repentence, especially when you take all the other scriptures I quoted in my previous post. (Which you avoided yet again).

Romans 6:19-22

19 Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. 21 And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life.

 

[Guojing]

especially when you take all the other scriptures I quoted in my previous post. (Which you avoided yet again).

We are discussing this point "Paul also warned followers about potentially falling away."

Keep to the point.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Matt 18 informs us that the matter is not confined to priests/pastors/apostles.

Matt 18:

15 “Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.​

Peter spells it out for us very specifically --

Matt 18: 21

Then Peter came up and said to Him, “Lord, how many times shall my brother sin against me and I still forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy-seven times.​

Jesus makes it clear in Matt 6 - the Lord's prayer

Matt 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."​

We should forgive others yes so that God will forgive us, but ultimately the most important thing is that Jesus forgives us, that's why we pray to Jesus for forgiveness. I do not see anywhere in scripture about praying to a priest. If you can show me a verse where it specifically says get forgiveness from a priest i might be inclined to the perspective that this needs to happen. But also the most important thing is Jesus forgiving us, right? I thought all Christians were already in agreement on this basic principle.

 

[YahuahSaves]

We are discussing this point "Paul also warned followers about potentially falling away."

Keep to the point.

No, we were discussing forgiveness of sins committed after redemption.

You keep to the point and on-topic.

 

[Guojing]

No, we were discussing forgiveness of sins committed after redemption.

You keep to the point and on-topic.

So if you are moving away from Paul, I will not be able to engage you further because that was the original point I was making.

 

[YahuahSaves]

So if you are moving away from Paul, I will not be able to engage you further because that was the original point I was making.

You can't argue "once saved, always saved" based on one letter written by Paul, you have to include the other scriptures to confirm context.
That was the point I was making. You still have to repent for sin after being saved, the ideal is we're not supposed to sin after being saved (at all).

 

[Guojing]

You can't argue "once saved, always saved" based on one letter written by Paul, you have to include the other scriptures to confirm context.
That was the point I was making. You still have to repent for sin after being saved, the ideal is we're not supposed to sin after being saved (at all).

If all you are saying there is scripture saying you can lose your salvation, I certainly agree with you.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

We should forgive others yes so that God will forgive us, but ultimately the most important thing is that Jesus forgives us, that's why we pray to Jesus for forgiveness. I do not see anywhere in scripture about praying to a priest. If you can show me a verse where it specifically says get forgiveness from a priest i might be inclined to the perspective that this needs to happen. But also the most important thing is Jesus forgiving us, right? I thought all Christians were already in agreement on this basic principle.

Forgiving others is not so easy.

 

[YahuahSaves]

If all you are saying there is scripture saying you can lose your salvation, I certainly agree with you.

If we're still sinning after being saved and we don't ask God for forgiveness and repent (turn from sin), we can lose our salvation. That's what I'm saying. It's Scriptural. Accept it or deny it, it's your choice.

 

[Guojing]

If we're still sinning after being saved and we don't ask God for forgiveness and repent (turn from sin), we can lose our salvation. That's what I'm saying. It's Scriptural. Accept it or deny it, it's your choice.

Scripture says different things at different times to different groups of people.

Your task is to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), and not to assume all scripture contains doctrine for you today.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Scripture says different things at different times to different groups of people.

Your task is to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), and not to assume all scripture contains doctrine for you today.

So Jesus wasn't referring to the here and now when He said these things in Matthew 24:12-14 and Matthew 7:21 IYO?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Scripture says different things at different times to different groups of people.

Your task is to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), and not to assume all scripture contains doctrine for you today.

If scripture says Matthew 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Two things I need to address. First, this scripture applies to all people, it does not say to me to not be angry with my brother or sister, and then to you something different. That is to blatantly deny scripture.

Second, if the once saved always saved doctrine is true, why does Jesus warn of the dangers of the fire of hell, wouldn't that not apply if we are truly once saved always saved?

Granted I do not believe in focusing on the negative, we should have our eyes fixed on Heaven and doing good, working out our salvation with fear and trembling, so as to avoid the fire altogether.

 

[Guojing]

So Jesus wasn't referring to the here and now when He said these things in Matthew 24:12-14 and Matthew 7:21 IYO?

See Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8 to understand whom Jesus was speaking to in his first coming.

 

[Guojing]

If scripture says Matthew 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Two things I need to address. First, this scripture applies to all people, it does not say to me to not be angry with my brother or sister, and then to you something different. That is to blatantly deny scripture.

Second, if the once saved always saved doctrine is true, why does Jesus warn of the dangers of the fire of hell, wouldn't that not apply if we are truly once saved always saved?

Granted I do not believe in focusing on the negative, we should have our eyes fixed on Heaven and doing good, working out our salvation with fear and trembling, so as to avoid the fire altogether.

See Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8 to understand whom Jesus was speaking to in his first coming.