The debate about forgiving -- is it just priests that forgive?

[The Liturgist]

I think the elephant in the room is this:

If God has already forgiven us our sins in the first place when we believed the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, why do we need anyone else to pronounce absolution on us?

By the way, I don’t see any elephants in the room, but I do see you replied in separate posts to myself and @Paidiske using the same text: you can actually reply to multiple posts with a single post just by hitting the Reply button on each post you wish to reply to.

 

[Paidiske]

I think the elephant in the room is this:

If God has already forgiven us our sins in the first place when we believed the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, why do we need anyone else to pronounce absolution on us?

It is one thing for God to have forgiven. It is another thing for people riddled with guilt and shame, with feelings of failure, worthlessness, and so on, to be able to take that forgiveness to heart. To have someone entrusted by the church tell you that with authority, (especially, as in the case of private confession, after they have heard whatever it is that is plaguing your conscience and can still look you in the eye and tell you that God forgives), can be an immensely powerful help for some people to make that shift.

So, do we, strictly speaking, need the formality? From God's side of the equation, no. From the human side, sometimes it is helpful.

 

[concretecamper]

I think the elephant in the room is this:

If God has already forgiven us our sins in the first place when we believed the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, why do we need anyone else to pronounce absolution on us?

These means of grace are administered first through congregational or private confession and reconciliation, wherein a priest like @Paidiske pronounces God’s absolution over us, relying on the pastoral authority to bind and loose as described in Matthew 16:18

I believe the elephant is precisely what @Guojing is referring to. The Church has always held that His Priests have the power to forgive and retain sins. This has always been the case, and will always be the case regardless of the linguistical acrobatics one must perform to challenge the meaning.

 

[The Liturgist]

I believe the elephant is precisely what @Guojing is referring to. The Church has always held that His Priests have the power to forgive and retain sins. This has always been the case, and will always be the case regardless of the linguistical acrobatics one must perform to challenge the meaning.

Indeed. I have always by the way associated the power to retain sins with the ability of the bishops to pronounce anathemas against heretics, as authorized in Galatians 1:8-9.

 

[concretecamper]

Indeed. I have always by the way associated the power to retain sins with the ability of the bishops to pronounce anathemas against heretics, as authorized in Galatians 1:8-9.

and they have the power to forgive sins. An awesome gift as eloquently explain by St John Chrysostom.

 

[Guojing]

and they have the power to forgive sins. An awesome gift as eloquently explain by St John Chrysostom.

But according to Paidiske, they do not have that power.

So who is correct?

 

[Guojing]

It is one thing for God to have forgiven. It is another thing for people riddled with guilt and shame, with feelings of failure, worthlessness, and so on, to be able to take that forgiveness to heart. To have someone entrusted by the church tell you that with authority, (especially, as in the case of private confession, after they have heard whatever it is that is plaguing your conscience and can still look you in the eye and tell you that God forgives), can be an immensely powerful help for some people to make that shift.

So, do we, strictly speaking, need the formality? From God's side of the equation, no. From the human side, sometimes it is helpful.

So despite John 20:23, you will say that nobody, not even the 12 apostles of Jesus, has the power to forgive sins at all?

 

[Paidiske]

So despite John 20:23, you will say that nobody, not even the 12 apostles of Jesus, has the power to forgive sins at all?

I would say that God has established the forgiveness (it does not need anything more from us to make it real); what we do is make that known with authority.

 

[Guojing]

I would say that God has established the forgiveness (it does not need anything more from us to make it real); what we do is make that known with authority.

I see, do you think that is the literal meaning of John 20:23, as expressed in the KJV?

That verse says that, those sins the 12 did not cancel (remit), they are retained.

What could "retained" mean there, except that those sins are not forgiven?

 

[Paidiske]

I see, do you think that is the literal meaning of John 20:23, as expressed in the KJV?

No, but I think the KJV is a poor translation of the Greek (which I can read) here. I think what I have said is the best way to make sense of the Greek.

What could "retained" mean there, except that those sins are not forgiven?

That's probably a fair reading.

In practice, for example, we might find that someone is aware that he or she has sinned, but in fact does not repent of that sin. That would be an occasion where we would not pronounce absolution, and that is a warning to that person that they do need to repent.

 

[YahuahSaves]

Matt 18 informs us that the matter is not confined to priests/pastors/apostles.

Matt 18:

15 “Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.​

Peter spells it out for us very specifically --

Matt 18: 21

Then Peter came up and said to Him, “Lord, how many times shall my brother sin against me and I still forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy-seven times.​

Jesus makes it clear in Matt 6 - the Lord's prayer

Matt 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."​

We are to forgive others as God has forgiven us. This includes forgetting I believe (not easy to do without the help of the Holy Spirit) when God forgives us, he "forgets".

Ephesians 4:32

32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Hebrews 8:12

12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”

Matthew 6:14

14 “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you.

Isaiah 43:25

25 “I—yes, I alone—will blot out your sins for my own sake
and will never think of them again.

 

[Guojing]

In practice, for example, we might find that someone is aware that he or she has sinned, but in fact does not repent of that sin. That would be an occasion where we would not pronounce absolution, and that is a warning to that person that they do need to repent.

Are you saying a sinner must tell God "I am sorry for sin X and I will not do it again", before God will forgive him?

 

[YahuahSaves]

Are you saying a sinner must tell God "I am sorry for sin X and I will not do it again", before God will forgive him?

Do you not ask for forgiveness when you hurt someone you love?

17 Scriptures on Repentance (True Meaning of Forgiving Your Sins Here)

 

[Paidiske]

Are you saying a sinner must tell God "I am sorry for sin X and I will not do it again", before God will forgive him?

No. But I'm saying if a sinner in fact intends to continue in their particular sin, and has no intention or desire to stop, despite knowing that it is a sin... that's a problem.

 

[The Liturgist]

Are you saying a sinner must tell God "I am sorry for sin X and I will not do it again", before God will forgive him?

If a person lacks contrition for their sin, and a desire to repent (metanoia) we cannot pronounce absolution, or even I would argue safely admit them to the Eucharist as per 1 Corinthians 11:27-34.

Now, repentance is a process of overcoming sin - metanoia literally means to change ones mind, but absolution requires contrition and a desire for repentance, which can be accomplished through the grace of the Holy Spirit.

An unrepentent sinner cannot be absolved because that means they don’t see that they have done anything wrong.

There is an exception to this, and that is that all of us sin in ways we don’t understand, and so this is why it behoves Christians to embrace humility and seek forgiveness for all of our trespasses, as we forgive all those who have trespassed against us.

The confiteor said at Morning Prayer and Evensong in the Book of Common Prayer has the congregation confess that they have left undone that which they ought to have done, and done that which they ought not to have done. It is a beautiful prayer which expresses the attitude we should cultivate.

 

[Guojing]

No. But I'm saying if a sinner in fact intends to continue in their particular sin, and has no intention or desire to stop, despite knowing that it is a sin... that's a problem.

It might be a problem true, but as far as God is concerned, his sin is forgiven.

Would you agree?

 

[Guojing]

If a person lacks contrition for their sin, and a desire to repent (metanoia) we cannot pronounce absolution, or even I would argue safely admit them to the Eucharist as per 1 Corinthians 11:27-34.

But as she has stated, pronouncing absolution has nothing to do with whether God forgives your sins or not.

 

[Guojing]

Do you not ask for forgiveness when you hurt someone you love?

17 Scriptures on Repentance (True Meaning of Forgiving Your Sins Here)

That was not my question.

 

[YahuahSaves]

That was not my question.

What was your question again...

Are you saying a sinner must tell God "I am sorry for sin X and I will not do it again", before God will forgive him?

Does someone forgive before the person that hurts them asks for forgiveness? Not necessarily. often a Christian will forgive because it's required by God. But your question was referring to God, not people. Does God require repentance? According to scripture, yes he does.

 

[Paidiske]

It might be a problem true, but as far as God is concerned, his sin is forgiven.

Would you agree?

No. God offers forgiveness, but wilful sin is not automatically forgiven without repentance.