The debate about forgiving -- is it just priests that forgive?

[SeventhFisherofMen]

See Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8 to understand whom Jesus was speaking to in his first coming.

Are you saying Jesus was not also sent to the future generations of this entire Earth for thousands of years after his resurrection from the dead?

You do realize His teaching was not just for the people alive at the time? This is crucial for your faith otherwise you'll just disregard everything as not applying to you just because you weren't alive when Jesus walked this Earth physically at the age of 30-33

 

[Guojing]

Are you saying Jesus was not also sent to the future generations of this entire Earth for thousands of years after his resurrection from the dead?

You do realize His teaching was not just for the people alive at the time? This is crucial for your faith otherwise you'll just disregard everything as not applying to you just because you weren't alive when Jesus walked this Earth physically at the age of 30-33

I gave you the scripture where Jesus himself tells you who he was speaking to.

You can of course learn from the instructions he gave to the nation of Israel, just as you did regarding the OT.

That does not mean you take those as instructions for you to follow.

Here is a hint, he made an un-prophesied return to save Paul, so that he can be YOUR apostle. (Romans 11:13)

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

I gave you the scripture where Jesus himself tells you who he was speaking to.

You can of course learn from the instructions he gave to the nation of Israel, just as you did regarding the OT.

That does not mean you take those as instructions for you to follow.

Here is a hint, he made an un-prophesied return to save Paul, so that he can be YOUR apostle. (Romans 11:13)

I'm really concerned that you are believing things not taught in scripture. Please be careful as you could be straying from the truth and believing things not taught by Jesus. An unprophesied return is not in scripture that is as far as i know a lie, and believing lies are dangerous to do.

 

[Guojing]

I'm really concerned that you are believing things not taught in scripture. Please be careful as you could be straying from the truth and believing things not taught by Jesus. An unprophesied return is not in scripture that is as far as i know a lie, and believing lies are dangerous to do.

If Paul claim to have seen the resurrected Christ, who appeared to him last of all, in 1 Corinthians 15:8, would you believe him?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

If Paul claim to have seen the resurrected Christ, who appeared to him last of all, in 1 Corinthians 15:8, would you believe him?

Paul saw Jesus yes, You do realize later Jesus appeared to John as well which is how we get the book of Revelation.

Just because Jesus appears to someone does not mean Jesus made an unprophesied return. A return would be if He appeared in the clouds like it says to take His church. I mean using that logic Jesus is with you right now if you believe scripture when Jesus says "And surely I am with you until the very end of the age" at the end of Matthew. Does that mean Jesus has made a unprophesied return in yours and mine very own room? No He is always with us.

 

[Guojing]

Paul saw Jesus yes, You do realize later Jesus appeared to John as well which is how we get the book of Revelation.

Just because Jesus appears to someone does not mean Jesus made an unprophesied return. A return would be if He appeared in the clouds like it says to take His church. I mean using that logic Jesus is with you right now if you believe scripture when Jesus says "And surely I am with you until the very end of the age" at the end of Matthew. Does that mean Jesus has made a unprophesied return in yours and mine very own room? No He is always with us.

According to Peter in Acts 3:19-21, Jesus was only returning to Earth after Israel go thru the Tribulation

The point I am simply making is this, Jesus bothered to return to Earth to appear to Paul to save him to become our apostle, after Israel killed Stephen in Acts 7.

If you don't considered that return as unprophesied, I am fine.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

According to Peter in Acts 3:19-21, Jesus was only returning to Earth after Israel go thru the Tribulation

The point I am simply making is this, Jesus bothered to return to Earth to appear to Paul to save him to become our apostle, after Israel killed Stephen in Acts 7.

If you don't considered that return as unprophesied, I am fine.

I think the difference we have here is "appeared" and "returned" Appearing to someone and actually returning to Earth is different

 

[Guojing]

I think the difference we have here is "appeared" and "returned" Appearing to someone and actually returning to Earth is different

Well if Paul was on Earth, Jesus appearing to him is the same as Jesus returning to Earth.

I have no idea why you want to split hair there.

 

[YahuahSaves]

See Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8 to understand whom Jesus was speaking to in his first coming.

You're saying he was speaking specifically to Israel, I know, you've argued the same thing before. You need to do 2 things: study scripture, the fact that Israel was scattered. also the point that salvation is extended to Jews and Gentiles. Secondly, look up the word "Ekklesia" and what it truly means.

 

[GDL]

NKJ 1 John 1:5-10 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

No Priest involved between us and God in these verses. Acknowledging our sins is just part of our walk with Him. Forgiveness anytime anywhere based upon what He alone requires of us. 147 posts and this is not referenced?

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

NKJ 1 John 1:5-10 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

No Priest involved between us and God in these verses. Acknowledging our sins is just part of our walk with Him. Forgiveness anytime anywhere based upon what He alone requires of us. 147 posts and this is not referenced?

I referenced needing forgiveness, did you read all 147 posts or just count the number of posts made

 

[Guojing]

You're saying he was speaking specifically to Israel, I know, you've argued the same thing before. You need to do 2 things: study scripture, the fact that Israel was scattered. also the point that salvation is extended to Jews and Gentiles. Secondly, look up the word "Ekklesia" and what it truly means.

Salvation being extended to Jews and Gentiles today, does not mean the instructions of Jesus to Israel in his first coming is suddenly written to us.

As I already stated, he made an un-prophesied return to save Paul, so that he can be YOUR apostle. (Romans 11:13)

Follow Paul as he follows Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1)

 

[YahuahSaves]

As I already stated, he made an un-prophesied return to save Paul, so that he can be YOUR apostle.

Follow Paul as he follows Christ

You do know Paul was speaking to the church of the time? We are to follow Jesus, the living one. Revelation 1:18

 

[Guojing]

You do know Paul was speaking to the church of the time? We are to follow Jesus, the living one. Revelation 1:18

Israel followed Moses because that was what God wanted them to do.

Likewise, the Body of Christ follows Paul because that is what Christ wants us to do, as 1 Corinthians 11:1 indicated.

As you follow Paul, you are following Christ. You don't follow Christ after the flesh, meaning during the 4 gospels, you know him in the flesh no more (2 Corinthians 5:16)

 

[Darren Court]

Priests do not forgive. We proclaim God's forgiveness. The church entrusts to us the responsibility of doing so with the authority of the church behind it, but it is not something we do or make happen.

I'm not sure from what denomination you are coming from here, but suspect Anglican.
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Most of the people I speak to from these two churches are confused on this. Some will say the Priest does forgive because that's precisely what the bible says, even though their "official doctrine" endorses the fact that only God forgives. The rest state their belief as you do.... that the Priest only pronounces forgiveness of sins. However, they get a bit stuck when we dig into this a bit further....
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1) If the Priest is acting on behalf of God in declaring sins, are they acting with divine guidance/authority or just human fallibility. It's important to know which because I cannot see any case to make for God's authority being given to someone with human fallibility whilst they're making a mistake. If it's with divine guidance, there will never be a mistake, though.
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2) "If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” There are two clear parts to this. Forgiving and not forgiving, but as far as I'm aware there is no part of "not forgiving" in the confession or Priest's withholding absolution. Unless there are clear grounds upon which sins are forgiven or not forgiven, and we are implementing those grounds then we are not following scripture in the process. Thus it seems to me that if we're going to use scripture to defend our process of Priest's declaring forgiveness then they must also include the process of declaring not forgiven!

Shalom aleichem

 

[Darren Court]

Absolution is a Means of Grace, instituted by Christ for His Church. When the pastor pronounces forgiveness of sins it is not by their own personal power or authority; they are speaking in the name and authority of Jesus Christ who said, "Whoever's sins you forgive are forgiven them". When God, through Word and Sacrament, declares us forgiven we are indeed forgiven. It is real forgiveness. You are forgiven because God declares you forgiven on Christ's account.

-CryptoLutheran

Most of the people I speak to on this have many people in their church who are confused and take two different views. Some will say the Priest does forgive because that's precisely what the bible says, even though their "official doctrine" endorses the fact that only God forgives. The rest state their belief as you do.... that the Priest only pronounces forgiveness of sins. However, they get a bit stuck when we dig into this a bit further....
.
1) If the Priest is acting on behalf of God in declaring sins, are they acting with divine guidance/authority or just human fallibility. It's important to know which because I cannot see any case to make for God's authority being given to someone with human fallibility whilst they're making a mistake. If it's with divine guidance, there will never be a mistake, though.
.
2) "If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” There are two clear parts to this. Forgiving and not forgiving, but as far as I'm aware there is no part of "not forgiving" in the confession or Priest's withholding absolution. Unless there are clear grounds upon which sins are forgiven or not forgiven, and we are implementing those grounds then we are not following scripture in the process. Thus it seems to me that if we're going to use scripture to defend our process of Priest's declaring forgiveness then they must also include the process of declaring not forgiven!

Shalom aleichem

 

[Darren Court]

So there is the forgiveness that a person gets from God - and then there is the Matt 18 kind where Peter asks "How many times shall my brother sin against me - and I still forgive him?"

Hi Bob... I think we're talking about cross purposes here. Where we are personal sinned against, we are to forgive 70x7 i.e infinite number of times.
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Are you're saying " If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” is confined to just sins that are committed against you?

 

[YahuahSaves]

You don't follow Christ after the flesh, meaning during the 4 gospels, you know him in the flesh no more

No... we follow Christ by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Guojing]

No... we follow Christ by the Holy Spirit.

I have given all the necessary scripture, but of course, I cannot make you read them.

 

[YahuahSaves]

I have given all the necessary scripture, but of course, I cannot make you read them.

You believe we are to follow Paul's example? Paul is dead, Christ is alive. Paul followed Christ by the Holy Spirit, which is exactly what we're to do now, today. Show me the scriptures that dispute that fact?