The debate about forgiving -- is it just priests that forgive?

[Guojing]

What was your question again...

Does someone forgive before the person that hurts them asks for forgiveness? Not necessarily. often a Christian will forgive because it's required by God. But your question was referring to God, not people. Does God require repentance? According to scripture, yes he does.

So you are saying no, God will not forgive him.

 

[Guojing]

No. God offers forgiveness, but wilful sin is not automatically forgiven without repentance.

I see, we have a different understanding of Paul's gospel of grace then.

My earlier point was
If God has already forgiven us our sins in the first place when we believed the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, why do we need anyone else to pronounce absolution on us

You don't even agree with my premise in the above point.

But Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Paidiske]

My earlier point was
If God has already forgiven us our sins in the first place when we believed the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, why do we need anyone else to pronounce absolution on us

You don't even agree with my premise in the above point.

I do, to a point. But I don't believe we can wilfully, knowingly continue in unrepentent sin, and say to ourselves, "Oh, God has forgiven me, I can keep sinning."

 

[YahuahSaves]

So you are saying no, God will not forgive him.

Are you suggesting that once we are saved and are in Christ, we can no longer sin and fall away? We still have the ability to choose life or death, even after we've received the gift of life. Are you suggesting if we go on sinning deliberately God has already forgiven our future sin at the time of salvation? What do you make of the scriptures then?

Hebrews 10:26
1 John 3:6
Romans 6:1-2
John 5:14
1 Corinthians 15:34
John 8:11

 

[Guojing]

I do, to a point. But I don't believe we can wilfully, knowingly continue in unrepentent sin, and say to ourselves, "Oh, God has forgiven me, I can keep sinning."

If you understand Paul in Romans 5:12-19, there is one sin that needs "forgiveness" and it is not even ours but we were born with that sin.

 

[Guojing]

Are you suggesting that once we are saved and are in Christ, we can no longer sin and fall away? We still have the ability to choose life or death, even after we've received the gift of life. Are you suggesting if we go on sinning deliberately God has already forgiven our future sin at the time of salvation? What do you make of the scriptures then?

Hebrews 10:26
1 John 3:6
Romans 6:1-2
John 5:14
1 Corinthians 15:34
John 8:11

If you understand Paul in Romans 5:12-19, there is one sin that needs "forgiveness" and it is not even ours but we were born with that sin.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If God has already forgiven us our sins in the first place when we believed the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, why do we need anyone else to pronounce absolution on us

What does that passage teach about forgiveness? It does not mention it as far as I can tell.

And so I make known to you, brothers, the Gospel that I preached to you, which you also received, and on which you stand. By the Gospel, too, you are being saved, if you hold to the understanding that I preached to you, lest you believe in vain. For I handed on to you, first of all, what I also received: that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures; and that he was seen by Cephas, and after that by the eleven. Next he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, many of whom remain, even to the present time, although some have fallen asleep. Next, he was seen by James, then by all the Apostles. And last of all, he was seen also by me, as if I were someone born at the wrong time. For I am the least of the Apostles. I am not worthy to be called an Apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God. But, by the grace of God, I am what I am. And his grace in me has not been empty, since I have labored more abundantly than all of them. Yet it is not I, but the grace of God within me. For whether it is I or they: so we preach, and so you have believed. ​

1 Corinthians 15:1-11

 

[Guojing]

What does that passage teach about forgiveness? It does not mention it as far as I can tell.

And so I make known to you, brothers, the Gospel that I preached to you, which you also received, and on which you stand. By the Gospel, too, you are being saved, if you hold to the understanding that I preached to you, lest you believe in vain. For I handed on to you, first of all, what I also received: that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he rose again on the third day, according to the Scriptures; and that he was seen by Cephas, and after that by the eleven. Next he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, many of whom remain, even to the present time, although some have fallen asleep. Next, he was seen by James, then by all the Apostles. And last of all, he was seen also by me, as if I were someone born at the wrong time. For I am the least of the Apostles. I am not worthy to be called an Apostle, because I persecuted the Church of God. But, by the grace of God, I am what I am. And his grace in me has not been empty, since I have labored more abundantly than all of them. Yet it is not I, but the grace of God within me. For whether it is I or they: so we preach, and so you have believed. ​

1 Corinthians 15:1-11

If you understand Paul in Romans 5:12-19, there is one sin that needs "forgiveness" and it is not even ours but we were born with that sin.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

If you understand Paul in Romans 5:12-19, there is one sin that needs "forgiveness" and it is not even ours but we were born with that sin.

Romans 5:12-21 does not mention forgiveness, so, I am wondering why you picked that passage as the basis for your views on forgiveness?

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into this world, and through sin, death; so also death was transferred to all men, to all who have sinned. For even before the law, sin was in the world, but sin was not imputed while the law did not exist. Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses, even in those who have not sinned, in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. But the gift is not entirely like the offense. For though by the offense of one, many died, yet much more so, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, has the grace and gift of God abounded to many. And the sin through one is not entirely like the gift. For certainly, the judgment of one was unto condemnation, but the grace toward many offenses is unto justification. For though, by the one offense, death reigned through one, yet so much more so shall those who receive an abundance of grace, both of the gift and of justice, reign in life through the one Jesus Christ. Therefore, just as through the offense of one, all men fell under condemnation, so also through the justice of one, all men fall under justification unto life. For, just as through the disobedience of one man, many were established as sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, many shall be established as just. Now the law entered in such a way that offenses would abound. But where offenses were abundant, grace was superabundant. So then, just as sin has reigned unto death, so also may grace reign through justice unto eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Romans 5:12-21

 

[Guojing]

Romans 5:12-21 does not mention forgiveness, so, I am wondering why you picked that passage as the basis for your views on forgiveness?

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into this world, and through sin, death; so also death was transferred to all men, to all who have sinned. For even before the law, sin was in the world, but sin was not imputed while the law did not exist. Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses, even in those who have not sinned, in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. But the gift is not entirely like the offense. For though by the offense of one, many died, yet much more so, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, has the grace and gift of God abounded to many. And the sin through one is not entirely like the gift. For certainly, the judgment of one was unto condemnation, but the grace toward many offenses is unto justification. For though, by the one offense, death reigned through one, yet so much more so shall those who receive an abundance of grace, both of the gift and of justice, reign in life through the one Jesus Christ. Therefore, just as through the offense of one, all men fell under condemnation, so also through the justice of one, all men fall under justification unto life. For, just as through the disobedience of one man, many were established as sinners, so also through the obedience of one man, many shall be established as just. Now the law entered in such a way that offenses would abound. But where offenses were abundant, grace was superabundant. So then, just as sin has reigned unto death, so also may grace reign through justice unto eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Romans 5:12-21

That is why I put quotation marks.

We are talking about sin here, and that word is prominently in the entire passage.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That is why I put quotation marks.

We are talking about sin here, and that word is prominently in the entire passage.

Seems that there are many passages about forgiveness and one ought to select from among them to make a case for a specific view on forgiveness. For example,

For if you will forgive men their sins, your heavenly Father also will forgive you your offenses. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your sins.​

Matthew 6:14-15
and,

When he had said this, he breathed on them. And he said to them: "Receive the Holy Spirit. Those whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and those whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." ​

John 20:22-23

 

[Guojing]

Seems that there are many passages about forgiveness and one ought to select from among them to make a case for a specific view on forgiveness. For example,

For if you will forgive men their sins, your heavenly Father also will forgive you your offenses. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your sins.​

Matthew 6:14-15
and,

When he had said this, he breathed on them. And he said to them: "Receive the Holy Spirit. Those whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them, and those whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." ​

John 20:22-23

Yes, for Israel, they will only receive forgiveness of their sins as a nation when the New Covenant begin for them, which will happen when Jesus returns for their nation after the Tribulation.

In the meantime, the 12 apostles have the authority to forgive individual sins of Jews, as John 20:23 stated. Ananias and Sapphira was the only scripture example of sins that Peter did not forgive.

 

[YahuahSaves]

If you understand Paul in Romans 5:12-19, there is one sin that needs "forgiveness" and it is not even ours but we were born with that sin.

You didn't answer my question or the scriptures I referenced. Your own quoted scripture says it:

Romans 5:17

17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

We know many of us do not "triumph" over sin in the beginning of our walk with God..especially if we willfully sin and do not repent, we are at risk of falling away.

You are saying repenting is not necessary because "once saved, always saved" seems to be your angle.

Even Jesus said people who are saved will call him "Lord" and he will declare he did not know them for they practiced lawlessness.

 

[concretecamper]

But according to Paidiske, they do not have that power.

So who is correct?

St John Chrysostom agrees with what the Church teaches (which is the position I advanced). I'll take his position over any novel idea anytime.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Yes, for Israel, they will only receive forgiveness of their sins as a nation when the New Covenant begin for them, which will happen when Jesus returns for their nation after the Tribulation.

In the meantime, the 12 apostles have the authority to forgive individual sins of Jews, as John 20:23 stated. Ananias and Sapphira was the only scripture example of sins that Peter did not forgive.

I do not know why you refer to Israel when discussing Matthew 6:14-15 and John 20:22-23.

 

[Guojing]

I do not know why you refer to Israel when discussing Matthew 6:14-15 and John 20:22-23.

Because of Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8.

 

[Guojing]

You didn't answer my question or the scriptures I referenced. Your own quoted scripture says it:

Romans 5:17

17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

We know many of us do not "triumph" over sin in the beginning of our walk with God..especially if we willfully sin and do not repent, we are at risk of falling away.

You are saying repenting is not necessary because "once saved, always saved" seems to be your angle.

Even Jesus said people who are saved will call him "Lord" and he will declare he did not know them for they practiced lawlessness.

According to Romans 5:12-13, how did sin enter the world?

1. Is it our disobedience or Adam's disobedience? (vs12)
2. Between that and when the Law of Moses was given at Mount Sinai, how did Adam's descendants die even though sin was not imputed to them, since they could not disobey God's only commandment to mankind? (vs13)

 

[YahuahSaves]

According to Romans 5:12-13, how did sin enter the world?

1. Is it our disobedience or Adam's disobedience? (vs12)
2. Between that and when the Law of Moses was given at Mount Sinai, how did Adam's descendants die even though sin was not imputed to them, since they could not disobey God's only commandment to mankind? (vs13)

You like to dodge questions don't you?

Sin is like a disease that spread, for which Christ is the cure. That still doesn't answer the question of forgiveness/repentance after we come to Christ. You suggest our future sins are covered, but if that were the case, there wouldn't be the assertion throughout scripture that it is possible to sin and fall away from faith after being redeemed by Christ. Your suggestion that we are automatically forgiven for all future sins after redemption and we don't need to ever repent (turn away) from sin again, is unfounded.

 

[Lost Witness]

once saved always saved is a lie,
i fell away so i know it's a lie

 

[Guojing]

You like to dodge questions don't you?

Sin is like a disease that spread, for which Christ is the cure. That still doesn't answer the question of forgiveness/repentance after we come to Christ. You suggest our future sins are covered, but if that were the case, there wouldn't be the assertion throughout scripture that it is possible to sin and fall away from faith after being redeemed by Christ. Your suggestion that we are automatically forgiven for all future sins after redemption and we don't need to ever repent (turn away) from sin again, is unfounded.

I was focusing on Romans 5:12-19 in the current discussion.

But of course, if you rather move away from that, to other scriptures, you will naturally think I am dodging your questions, just as I think you are dodging mine.