The Days of Noah and Lot

[Straightshot]

Here is your short list that you have asked for ES .... just for starters

This is enough to prove you wrong with your idea that the Lord is finished with His nation of Israel ..... a man's salvation is one thing .... the preservation of Israel for His purposes as an ethnic nation is another

The Lord Himself is a "Jew" by His humanity, and still is [Revelation 5:5]

When you deny this truth your position is suspect of meddling with His intents .... not a good idea

You are kicking against the goad ES .... explain yourself

[Genesis 12:1-3; Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 20:34-44; 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9:24-27; Joel 2; 3; Micah 4:1-3; 5; Obadiah 1:1-21; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 12]

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Here is your short list that you have asked for ES .... just for starters

You've misunderstood the request. I asked for a list of teachings (from Jesus) which apply only to Jews, a list of teachings (from Jesus) which apply only to Christians, and a list which applies to both, as well as an explanation for how you've decided to the teachings into each category.

I am verrrry keen to see that list.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

But I maintain that is not the main point of the example of Noah and Lot. And this is where we disagree, it sounds. I see the main point being the sudden destruction on the wicked that will take place when Jesus returns.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Hi Lk. Thanks for adding more clarification to your position by address some of my concerns, and for clearly identifying where you believe the disagreement to lie.

I also agree that the main point of the teaching is to illustrate the sudden destruction of the wicked. But from the beginning I have wanted to explore why their destruction is sudden. Earlier you point to a reference from James where he mentioned the sexual immorality of Sodom. It seems sexual immorality is one of the most popular sins to become self righteous about. I don't doubt that sexual immorality abounded mightily in those days and yet, it was not sexual immorality that Jesus listed when talking about what they were doing just before they were destroyed. To me, that suggests, as was usual with Jesus, he was seeing something different.

Self righteousness is one of the easiest sins to perform, precisely because it disguises itself as righteousness. It's so easy to look at the sins of others and judge them. It's not that judgment is wrong, but that we so often neglect to judge ourselves, first. Sexual sin, by it's nature is physical, and therefore it is observable and obvious to superficial inspection.

Consider the example of the pharisees who brought the adulterous woman to him. The woman was plainly guilty. There was no doubt or dispute about that. And yet, Jesus instead rebuked the pharisees. Why? Wasn't it because they were being self-righteous toward the woman? They were quite ready to see her die for her sin, but they had little or no regard for their own sins, and that's because they had come to see their own sins as normal while finding it easy to jump on an obvious sin like fornication.

They could, as the pharisees boasted, catch sinners "in the very act" and have their own righteousness all the more justified by it. But spiritual concepts like hypocrisy and self righteousness are harder to spot, because they are not entirely based on physical behavior. This is what Jesus was getting at with his references to Noah and Lot's day. Those places had become synonymous with sexual and whatever other kind of sin people found it convenient to dump on them to make themselves feel better about themselves. "At least I'm not like those people of Noah's day". "At least I'm not like those people fo Lot's day; the filthy sexual perverts!"

Jesus wanted to address that self righteousness by pointing out that the real sin of Noah and Lot's day as that they were too busy with the cares of this life to care about what God wanted. Selfishness (which is, in essence greed) was the root of their problem. It just so happens that their sexual sin was one of the more sensational expressions of their selfishness. But things like business, family, and the other various cares of this world can also be sinful.

We should not think the people of Noah and Lot's day had some kind of special proclivity for sin that we do not. They were just as human as we are, and much like Paul warned us not to become high-minded lest we be broken off of the tree, so too we should not believe that we are somehow better than those other people, because, as Jesus suggested, they were in the midst of normal, everyday activities when they were destroyed.

This is why their destruction was "sudden". They had become complacent, to the point that we can't even say they didn't care about the warnings, because they didn't recognize anymore that there were any warnings.

Jesus said that the last Days would be like the days of Noah and Lot. When I look around at the world now, I see a humanity which is deeply, deeply invested in the cares of this world. The sex industry appears to be at an all time high, with nothing forbidden and just about everything encouraged in one way or another. But, so too materialism runs rampant. Gossip has become a national hobby raking in billions. People pledge allegiance to their various countries. Kids are officially taught that there is no God. The "family unit" is used as a shield for selfishness while at the same time the concept of family as a means of showing love toward one another is regularly torn down.

Everywhere you look there is some kind of distraction away from the teachings of Jesus and in many cases it is the supposed Christians who are leading the way. The destruction will be sudden, not because God will act quickly, but because the people have blinded themselves to reality. They're lost in the fantasy of the cares of this world; everyday, normal activities for which they see no reason to be alarmed precisely because those activities are so normal.

Jesus' message about the days of Noah and Lot was that there is no situation in which we should become comfortable with our place in life, no matter how benign the circumstances may be. We should always be questioning what we have, where we're at, who we know, what we're doing, where we're going and most importantly, why we're doing all those things. The moment we stop questioning even the most basic concepts of life (like our desire for food and clothing) is the moment we become like the people Of Noah and Lots day.

 

[Straightshot]

"You've misunderstood the request. I asked for a list of teachings (from Jesus) which apply only to Jews, a list of teachings (from Jesus) which apply only to Christians, and a list which applies to both, as well as an explanation for how you've decided to the teachings into each category.

I am verrrry keen to see that list."


Well now I see that you really do not know who the Lord is in the first palace .... He is the Author of His entire prophetic word

You have a listing son .... all of it is His teaching and much more

Let me give you a hint about this truth [John 1:1-14; John 14:8-9]

Until you get this your adventure is in vane

Do you have a Bible?

If so, understand that it belongs to Him .... and if you want to know answers to your questions .... read it

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Well now I see that you really do not know who the Lord is in the first palace .... He is the Author of His entire prophetic word

You have a listing son .... all of it is His teaching and much more

Let me give you a hint about this truth [John 1:1-14; John 14:8-9]

Until you get this your adventure is in vane

Do you have a Bible?

If so, understand that it belongs to Him .... and if you want to know answers to your questions .... read it

Hi straightshot. I've found your attitude and responses to be consistently condescending. I'm guessing you probably don't realize how you come across (I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to have seen it). If I were talking to you one-on-one on the street I would have done a 180 quite a while ago, but since we're on a forum where other people can see what's happening I'll respond to this issue.

You've still not answered the question I asked. Instead you've said, "It's all Jesus' teachings", which is an answer to a question none one asked on this thread. So, why would you give answers to questions no one asked instead of answering the question which was asked?

I think the answer to that question is pretty obvious; convenience. Providing a list would nail you down on your position. Instead, the way you've worded it now, you can slip and slide between the issues depending on the circumstances. On any given topic you make the argument that, "that teaching was for the Jews" when it suits your personal bias and in another argument, "that teaching is for Christians" when it suits your bias.

Separating all the teachings into the three categories (Jews, Christains, and both) would leave you no more wiggle room and it would open you up to all kinds of contradictions. So, instead of producing the list, you swerve by answering a question no one asked, and to show just how insecure you are about the issue you say things like, "do you even have a bible" or "you should read your bible if you want to understand, son".

This is the kind of fearful, irrational thinking which happens when people try to say some teachings of Jesus are for some people while other teachings are for other people. The teachings of Jesus are for the followers of Jesus, just as the children of Abraham are those who have the faith of Abraham.

 

[Straightshot]

I gave you the listing related to the Lord's nation of Israel .... you rejected and said that you wanted the teachings of Jesus

You have them son .... He is the Lord and all prophecy is given by Him and through His Bible prophets

Study on

 

[Endtime Survivors]

There are a variety of reasons put forward for why the people of Noah and Lot's day were destroyed. For Noah's day the most popular explanation appears to be atheism or inappropriate sexual behavior between humans an angels. For Lot's day, by far the most common explanation is homosexuality.

But in Jesus' explanation he doesn't mention any of those things. He talks about normal, everyday activities. I've heard it argued that Jesus was not mentioning these activities in the context of anything bad, but simply stating what it was the people of those days were doing when they were destroyed; he was not criticizing those things, but merely stating that those people were doing what all humans do when they were destroyed.

But does that explanation really make sense? If these are normal everyday activities which all humans throughout all time perform, why bother to mention such mundane activities in connection with why the cities were destroyed? It would be like saying, "The people were breathing air when they were destroyed".

No, Jesus said, "This is what it will be like in the last days". These activities were an important part of the point he was making about the attitudes of the people of the last days. Why would he make a point of saying, "the last days will be normal".

It makes more sense that in the last days the people will be distracted with the cares of this world instead of caring about what God wanted, which is why the people of Noah and Lot's day were destroyed and why the people of the last days will be destroyed; too busy to care about what their creator wants.

 

[Achilles6129]

1) The activities mentioned illustrate how totally unaware the people were that they were about to be destroyed.

2) There has to be a reason why Christ compared his second coming to the days of Noah and Lot. He could have just said "it'll be sudden, and the world won't have any clue," but he didn't. The only possible reason can be because those days will be comparable to the days of Noah and Lot in wickedness as well as the fact that the people will be totally unaware when they get destroyed.

3) Christ specifically mentioned an enormous amount of iniquity in the last days (Mt. 24:12).

4) I think you are correct in that there is some implication that Christ was saying these people were putting these activities ahead of God.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

1) The activities mentioned illustrate how totally unaware the people were that they were about to be destroyed.

2) There has to be a reason why Christ compared his second coming to the days of Noah and Lot. He could have just said "it'll be sudden, and the world won't have any clue," but he didn't. The only possible reason can be because those days will be comparable to the days of Noah and Lot in wickedness as well as the fact that the people will be totally unaware when they get destroyed.

3) Christ specifically mentioned an enormous amount of iniquity in the last days (Mt. 24:12).

4) I think you are correct in that there is some implication that Christ was saying these people were putting these activities ahead of God.

Thanks Achilles. I think part of the problem is that we use words like, "wickedness", "corruption", "iniquity", etc to describe sin. But something like marriage is Holy and ordained by God. The apostle Paul says the marriage bed is undefiled. It's hard to imagine marriage as being sinful. And yet, it can be sinful.

We live in physical bodies, so building shelters, planting crops or buying/selling not only come across as normal, but necessary. It's hard to imagine these things as sinful, corrupt, or wicked, and yet they can be. But how do we know when these things, which are normally not sinful in themselves, become sinful?

 

[ken777]

Hi all,
Here's another video, this one on the Days of Noah and Lot. It's 6 minute animated feature which explores Jesus' comments from Luke 17:26-30. I look forward to hearing what others think and some positive discussion about this issues.

I think the video contains some valid points about allowing the everyday concerns of life to crowd out our relationship with God. However, I think Jesus chose Noah & Lot as examples because of the sexual immorality, to show us a sign of what social conditions would be like when He returns.

 

[Straightshot]

[Genesis 6; Matthew 24:36-39]

 

[Endtime Survivors]

I think the video contains some valid points about allowing the everyday concerns of life to crowd out our relationship with God. However, I think Jesus chose Noah & Lot as examples because of the sexual immorality, to show us a sign of what social conditions would be like when He returns.

Hi Ken. Thanks for watching the video and sharing your thoughts. Sexual immorality is probably the most common explanation for why why the people of Lot's day were destroyed. And yet, Jesus didn't talk about sexual immorality. He talked about a situation in which people had allowed everyday, normal activities to distract them away from what God wanted. I think sexual immorality was definitely there, but it's one of those issues where it becomes too easy, or convenient, to see the fault in others while ignoring the fault in ourselves.

Our activities are normal, everyday activities like buying/selling, planting/building, marrying and giving in marriage etc, while the people of Noah and Lot's day were sexual perverts. Their sin is easy and obvious, which makes us feel better about ourselves. At least we are not like them.

But Jesus wanted us to understand that the normalcy of life can also be sinful, not that it always is, but that it can be, especially when that normalcy is taken for granted and is beyond question. The fact that Jesus can say "this is what the people were doing when they were destroyed and it will be liek this again in the last days", and people still come away from that example thinking Jesus was referring to sexual perversion is, in itself, an indication that the problem is still attempting to hide itself behind the facade of normalcy.

The only way to break the spell is to make a stand an ask, "maybe Jesus really DID mean that these normal things can be a problem, and if so, then HOW do we know if we have a problem with these things". That is the question no one wants to ask. At what point does planting/building, buying/selling, and marraige become sinful? What are the practical warning signs to let us know when we have this problem?

Instead, it's much easier to think, "No, it's not about me, because I'm not a sexual pervert".

 

[Straightshot]

Anything that stands in the way between a man and his Maker is vitriolic .... count them

The solution sanctioned by the Creator [John 3] .... there is no other way

If a man does not seek and find this truth he is just a dead man walking around .... a very short walk

 

[Achilles6129]

But from the beginning I have wanted to explore why their destruction is sudden.

Yes, this is a very interesting question which I have asked myself as well. I think maybe the destruction is sudden because God doesn't believe they deserve warning? Or maybe because he's given warning, but they didn't listen? So since he's already warned them, and they didn't listen, he's not going to warn them again.

 

[ken777]

Yes, this is a very interesting question which I have asked myself as well. I think maybe the destruction is sudden because God doesn't believe they deserve warning? Or maybe because he's given warning, but they didn't listen? So since he's already warned them, and they didn't listen, he's not going to warn them again.

1 Peter 3:20 & 2 Peter 3:5 indicate that God warned the people in Noah's day.

 

[ken777]

That is the question no one wants to ask. At what point does planting/building, buying/selling, and marraige become sinful? What are the practical warning signs to let us know when we have this problem? Instead, it's much easier to think, "No, it's not about me, because I'm not a sexual pervert".

The context indicates Jesus is talking about signs of His coming and I think it is true to suggest that everyday activities (such as planting/building, buying/selling & marriage) without regard for what God wants us to do is also a sign of our times. Although these activities are not limited to the last 50 years, busying oneself with these things to the exclusion of God has become very common, especially in what we once thought of as Christian countries.

There is a lot implied by the examples of Noah & Lot including, I would argue, a pretribulation rapture! I have even heard one speaker point to the "body change" experienced by Abraham & Sarah in the days of Lot (Romans 4:19, 1 Corinthians 15:52)

 

[Endtime Survivors]

1 Peter 3:20 & 2 Peter 3:5 indicate that God warned the people in Noah's day.

Hi Ken. Thanks for posting those verses, as they are fantastic references to the context. How can people be warned and still suffer from "sudden" destruction at the same time? It only makes sense if they chose to ignore the warnings, so the context of Jesus' teachings isn't that the destruction was sudden, but rather why it was sudden.

It reminds me of a husband who's watching sports or whatever on TV while his wife is trying to talk to him about important issues. It's not that watching TV is wrong in itself, but if he's too distracted to hear his wife's concerns then perhaps it will come as a surprise to him when she decides to leave him further down the road.

I think that kind of thing is a pretty common reason for marriages busting up. After the honeymoon period is over one, or maybe both the spouses have trouble settling into the long haul of faithfulness. They become complacent with one another. Bored. Hobbies become more prevalent Business gets more time (in the name of making the business a success and/or paying the bills, of course).

A youth pastor once told us a story about an old elderly couple driving down the road in a pick-up. Suddenly a sports car zooms past. A young fella is driving and has an attract young woman curled up next to him. They've both got huge smiles on and appears as though their enjoying life quite well. The elderly wife looks over at the husband and asks, "why don't we sit like that anymore"? The husband just keeps looking straight ahead and says,"I never moved".

It's amazing how perspective can change over time. For example, the people from Matthew 7 who show up at the gate asking Jesus to let them in, and he says "I never knew you". They obviously believed they should be allowed in. Something in their perspective caused them to think they were right with God, and yet they were rejected.

I see the same spiritual principle at work in Jesus' warning about the days of Noah and Lot. Abraham believed he could find righteous people in Sodom. Something, caused him to believe this; something about the behavior of the people caused Abraham to think he could find some righteous people, and I believe it's because the people of Sodom were ordinary people just like us today, probably similar to the kind of people Jesus described as being rejected at the gate. They thought they had it all worked out, and yet they were rejected.

The people of Sodom probably talked a good talk and made a show of goodness which is what caused Abraham to think he could find righteous people. But God knew better. He could see past all their flowery, smug, self satisfied religious jargon, deep down into their hearts, and what he saw there was a people who cared more about the cares of this life than what God wanted.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Although these activities are not limited to the last 50 years, busying oneself with these things to the exclusion of God has become very common, especially in what we once thought of as Christian countries.

Perhaps we should discuss some practical examples of what it means, in real life, for one to busy oneself with these things to the exclusion of God. For example, Jesus said that we should go into all the world preaching the good news of the kingdom. If people are too busy "working to pay the bills" then they won't have time to do this.

Or, another example relating to marriage; in Western culture it has become extremely popular to marry based on feelings. A couple develops strong feelings and the idea is that the strength of those feelings alone should be enough to carry the relationship forever. Concepts like, "for better or worse, till death do us part" often become little more than part of the ritual of the ceremony rather than explored in the gory, terrifying realism which the "or worse" part could (and usually does) lead to.

These couples are rarely taught to ask God what he wants, and to go with his guidance, even if it means calling off the marriage despite the very strong feelings. Feelings, romance, personal desire; all these things come well before God in our current-day ideology of what marriage is really all about. And if any well-meaning brother or sister does question the rightness of the proposed marriage, it's likely they'll get an earful of righteous indignation about how nothing should be allowed to come between the love two people feel for one another etc. It is almost always assumed that God would have no objection to such strong feelings.

Anyway, I have many other examples to share but the post is getting long! I look forward to hearing what others have to share.

 

[Psalm3704]

It's strange how popular this position seems to have become. The Tribulation and the Wrath are not the same thing. They are completely separate spiritual concepts. Tribulation/persecution is something that God allows all his followers to experience; it's just part of learning to become spiritually mature and to overcome.

No, that's incorrect! The wrath (Jacob's Trouble) is the 2nd half of the tribulation and is very much a part of the tribulation (Daniel's 70th week). The first half is the judgement. Here God will bring people to their knees and humble as many as He can till they finally call upon Him, than He'll save them. This is covered everywhere in the bible.

Wrath is specifically directed at God's enemies and is not meant to teach. By the time wrath comes it's too late, or as the Angel sounding the 7th trumpet says, "let there be time no longer". It's like he's saying, "time's up; there is no further chance for repentance. Jesus has taken his people up for the marriage supper of the lamb and now the REALLY violent stuff is about to be poured out on a disobedient and spiritually desolate world below.

No, wrong again! The angel does not say "let there be time no longer" at the 7th trumpet. This happens at the 6th trumpet in Revelation 10:6.

Revelation 10:6 King James Version (KJV)
And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:​

And no, he's not saying there is no further chance for repentance. The angel is telling us there's no more time to delay because the mysteries of God will finally be revealed at the next trumpet.

Revelation 10:6-7 King James Version (KJV)
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.​

Do you know what this means? It's telling you that everything I've said about the post-tribulation rapture as heresy will finally sink-in to your head, and everything I've told you about the pre-tribulation is true. Well actually billions on earth will have already known the pre-trib rapture is true when the days of Noah hits.

No! You're wrong some more. LOL! This is getting redundant! There's always a chance for repentance even during the second half of the tribulation during the beast's 42 month reign. Revelation 20:4 tells you those who did not worship the beast or take his mark and died from beheading are resurrected after the tribulation and allowed to reign with Christ during the 1000 years.

And this is why I want you to quote scriptures. You pull a little verse out of context here, pull a little verse out of context there, etc etc etc, mesh them all together to form one great big fallacy.

If the Wrath were happening at the same time as the Tribulation then how is it decided who gets the trumpets (i.e. tribulation) and who gets the bowls (i.e. the wrath)? According to pre-trib there are not more Christians/saints left so how is the remaining population of unbelievers divided up between the two (i.e. who gets the trib and who gets the wrath)?

You seriously don't know this from reading Revelations? The 1st half of the tribulation are all 7 trumpet judgements. The 2nd half are all 7 vial wraths. The seals are birth pain signs leading up to the tribulation.

In the 1st half, the trumpets are judgments to get people to repent. They will suffer great loses until they've come to the end of themselves and have nothing else to look for except to seek God. It will be so bad, they will seek death along the way but God won't let them die because He wants them to repent and save them, (Revelation 9:6). The 2nd half are vial wraths to remove those who still haven't come to repentance. Read the old testament prophecies.

There will be saints on earth during the tribulation. Many will be post-tribbers. I'm serious! God will give those that wants to endure the tribulation their wish. Numerous scriptures in the bible testify this. Those of the church who were raptured are the firstfruits, the elects of the church. The elects of Israel are the 144,000. Know the differences between the firstfruit, saints and elects.

I really don't understand how you work out your timeline. John doesn't mention anything about the rapture in Revelation 19 because it's already taken place. The church is there, with Jesus and the chapter is described from a Heavenly perspective. When they leave with Jesus on his white horse, they are going down to the battle of Armageddon, which is the last bowl of wrath (i.e. number 7).

I've already known you don't study prophecies in the old testament much if any, but you really really really need to do some studying there. The church stays in heaven till after the tribulation. The church does not descend to earth with Christ.

Do you know why Matthew 24:31 said the elects are gathered from heaven? It's because the church stays in heaven and waits till after the indignation, Isaiah 26:19-21.

Matthew 24:31 New King James Version (NKJV)
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Isaiah 26:19-21 New King James Version (NKJV)
19 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.​

Christ comes to judge the world with His angels, not the church.

Matthew 25:31-32 New King James Version (NKJV)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.​

Matthew 13:41-42 New King James Version (NKJV)
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Now after the tribulation, how will the church who are still waiting in heaven get to be with Christ on earth to commence the millennium? He sends His angels to gather them from heaven. Matthew 24:29-31.

Prophesy is easy to understand, a piece of cake. Every pieces falls into place and harmonizes one another if you just accept the truth.

If they are going down for the last bowl, then that necessitates that while they were up there partying, the previous bowls (1-6) must have been poured out, unless you're suggesting that the tribulation saints are gathered up by Jesus after the 6th bowl of wrath? Or, are you suggesting that the bowls will not be poured out in order from 1-7, in which case one wonders why God would bother to number them Or, are you suggesting there will be more than one marriage supper of the lamb so that the tribulation saints can have their little slice of cake, too? Or, are you suggesting that the tribulation saints will not partake of the marriage supper of the lamb? Please elaborate.

It's all easy once you accept the truth. Do you know why prophesy is difficult for some but cake for others? You open up a can of worm (post-trib rapture), than you try to put all the prophetic pieces together centered around a post-trib rapture and than realize nothing falls into place. You think you solved one piece of the puzzle but create two new ones along the way. Now you got 3 problems! You think the rapture is after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31 but later you realize the angels gather the elects from heaven (problem #1 created). You study a little more and realize Christ doesn't descend upon earth after the tribulation, but leaves at the 6th vial (problem #2 created). Now you got 3 problems!

Marriage Supper is held in heaven before Christ descends upon the earth. Tribulation saints forfeited their opportunity to partake in the marriage supper held in heaven. They also forfeited their eternal rewards....huge lost!

The bible tells us not to allow others to rob us of our rewards in heaven, Revelation 3:10-11. What this means is there will be those who will deceive others into believing they must go through the tribulation. Once a person firmly believes he must endure the tribulation, Christ cannot rescue them and rob them of their desire to do what they want (free will). It's the same when a Christian wanting to turn apostasy. As much as God hate to see it happen, He will not force you not to turn away.

Revelation 3:10-11 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.​

Once you missed the pre-tribulation rapture, everything waiting for you in heaven is forfeited, including your authorization to reign on earth, (except one final opportunity). And you should read the scriptures about the rewards Christ has for us. It's huge and eternal and for all of us going to heaven to receive it. Paul knew what he will be getting and willfully accepted his death by beheading graciously for the reward awaiting for him.

No, it makes more sense that the church goes through the Great Tribulation, out of which comes a great multitude no one could count. These are people who responded to God's discipline and chose to repent as a result. At the end of that period of Great Tribulation they are "raptured" (i.e. at the sound of a trumpet, just as Jesus and Paul describe, with Paul in particular describing it as the "last" trumpet).

Common sense is carnal and not always logical. The bible also say otherwise. Isaiah 26:19 - 27:1, Hebrews 12:22-28.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead,even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Hebrews 9:28 (ESV) so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.​

You're suppose to repent as you live your life before you enter into the tribulation. You don't start repenting once you're in the tribulation. That's why you're in the tribulation.











.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Well actually billions on earth will have already known the pre-trib rapture is true when the days of Noah hits.

Hi p3704. Thanks for the response, and for relating it to the topic of this thread even though it started over on another thread. Very clever!

Assuming the pre-trib theory is accurate, then yeah people will know when it happens. But the lesson behind the warning about the Days of Noah and Lot is the opposite; that people will be blissfully UNaware of Jesus' return, or the troubles coming on the Earth. There were "suddenly" destroyed, not because the destruction itself is sudden or that there is no warning, but because they stopped listening to or caring about the warnings.

You're suppose to repent as you live your life before you enter into the tribulation. You don't start repenting once you're in the tribulation. That's why you're in the tribulation.

This is not consistent with my understanding of tribulation, trials, persecution etc. Take a moment to think about what you're really arguing here. If "you don't start repenting once you're in the tribulation", as you suggest, then who are all these people who come out of the great tribulation, having white robes? If they were right with God before the trib, then they would have been taken up in the pre-trib rapture. How did they get the white robes? It makes no sense.

Actually, I think you are probably the first person I've ever encountered who says there won't be any repentance in the tribulation. It's such a contrary position that I think surely I must be misunderstanding your position, and yet when I read it again, it really does look like you're saying there won't be repentance in the tribulation. Anyway, I did a quick google search for references to tribulation in the Bible. You'll find plenty of references to people overcoming tribulation and trials quite before The Great Tribulation.