The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

[keras]

You have to be completely lacking in discernment to think that Matthew 25:31-46 is a judgment of nations.

You need to improve your memory.
We have resolved this before, I said that Matthew 25:31-46 refers to the final GWT Judgment of individuals.
At His Return, Jesus 'separates' the nations and all who refuse His Kingship, are killed. Mostly before the Return, Revelation 9:18 and the rest at Armageddon.
Only the righteous, faithful Christian peoples, will go into the Millennium.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You need to improve your memory.
We have resolved this before, I said that Matthew 25:31-46 refers to the final GWT Judgment of individuals.
At His Return, Jesus 'separates' the nations and all who refuse His Kingship, are killed. Mostly before the Return, Revelation 9:18 and the rest at Armageddon.
Only the righteous, faithful Christian peoples, will go into the Millennium.

Matthew 25:31-46 is His return. You are so confused that it just amazes me. You have the most convoluted understanding of scripture that I've ever seen except maybe for Douggg.

 

[keras]

We don't deny that King Jesus reigns. We agree with scripture that He is reigning NOW. Do you believe He is reigning NOW as scripture teaches?

No because I can face reality.
Jesus has yet to Return in glory, when every eye will see Him. Revelation 1:7

Thankfully, I do. I have many good reasons to deny your private understanding of scripture. Not the least of which is the fact that nowhere in scripture does it say that God decreed 7000 years for mankind. You're making things up.

Nothing you or others have said about the AMill belief, has even made me consider it.
Re the 7000 years of God's plan for mankind: We ARE given many Bible indications for this.
The addition of the given lifetimes of the Patriarchs and the kings of Israel and then Judah, are not there for no reason. They prove the exact period of 2000 years from Adam to Abraham. Then another exact 2000 years Abraham to Jesus. Now 1990 years Jesus to .......?

Note the Early Church Fathers, also believed in the 7000 years for mankind. They were right about that, at least!

the last trumpet sounds when Christ returns.

What scripture says that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No because I can face reality.
Jesus has yet to Return in glory, when every eye will see Him. Revelation 1:7

What does that have to do with the thousand years, though? He has been reigning a long time already. There is no scripture which teaches that He will reign on the earth. He will deliver the kingdom to the Father when He returns (1 Cor 15:22-24, Matt 13:36-43).

Nothing you or others have said about the AMill belief, has even made me consider it.

I find your doctrine to be just as convincing. Not at all.

Re the 7000 years of God's plan for mankind: We ARE given many Bible indications for this.
The addition of the given lifetimes of the Patriarchs and the kings of Israel and then Judah, are not there for no reason. They prove the exact period of 2000 years from Adam to Abraham. Then another exact 2000 years Abraham to Jesus. Now 1990 years Jesus to .......?

That is nothing but speculation. Give me solid scripture for once. All you ever do is take scripture from here and there and everywhere and act like it's all related together and you come up with a complete, convoluted mess. That is not the way to interpret scripture! It's no wonder that no one agrees with you.

Note the Early Church Fathers, also believed in the 7000 years for mankind. They were right about that, at least!

What do you mean "at least"? That seems to imply you think they were wrong about everything else or most everything else? So, why would you believe them about that? The fact is that they disagreed on all these things just like we still do today. Which is why I don't put much stock into their writings.

What scripture says that?

And you try to say I need to improve my memory? I already covered this in post #417 here: The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

 

[keras]

Matthew 25:31-46 is His return. You are so confused that it just amazes me. You have the most convoluted understanding of scripture that I've ever seen except maybe for Douggg.

OK, I should be more careful; Matthew 25:31-45, is after the Return.
Matthew 25:46 is about the GWT Judgment, after the 1000 years of the reign of Jesus has ended and He gives the Kingdom back to the Father, 1 Corinthians 15:24

Please do not compare me to Douggg!

 

[DavidPT]

Note the Early Church Fathers, also believed in the 7000 years for mankind. They were right about that, at least!

And some Amils, so not all Amils, even claim some of those very same church fathers as Amils, meaning some of these church fathers that believed in 6000 years for man until the end of this present age happens. Obviously, these ECFs were basing that on a thousand years being the same as one day, as in they took the thousand years to mean a literal thousand years, while Amils today do not take it to mean a literal thousand years. It seems like a contradiction to claim some of the ECFs as Amils, while you yourself don't even believe in a literal thousand years like some ECFs obviously did.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

OK, I should be more careful; Matthew 25:31-45, is after the Return.
Matthew 25:46 is about the GWT Judgment, after the 1000 years of the reign of Jesus has ended and He gives the Kingdom back to the Father, 1 Corinthians 15:24

Good grief, man. Come on. There is no basis whatsoever for separating Matthew 25:46 from Matthew 25:31-45. You should be ashamed of yourself for doing that.

Please do not compare me to Douggg!

Too late. I already did. Only in the sense of how complex and convoluted your beliefs are. At least you're not a dispensationalist like him. He tries to say he's not, but we know better, don't we.

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 25:46 is about the GWT Judgment, after the 1000 years of the reign of Jesus has ended and He gives the Kingdom back to the Father, 1 Corinthians 15:24

If it is, that certainly can't work with Premil. It might work with Amil, though.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And some Amils, so not all Amils, even claim some of those very same church fathers as Amils, meaning some of these church fathers that believed in 6000 years for man until the end of this present age happens. Obviously, these ECFs were basing that on a thousand years being the same as one day, as in they took the thousand years to mean a literal thousand years, while Amils today do not take it to mean a literal thousand years. It seems like a contradiction to claim some of the ECFs as Amils, while you yourself don't even believe in a literal thousand years like some ECFs obviously did.

David, please don't say things like this without offering some evidence. Where is your evidence to show that none of the ECFs were Amils?

When Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165), a Premil, said the following, who was he talking about?

In his Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 80 Justin Martyr said regarding his belief in premillennialism: "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise" (ANF, vol. 1, p. 239).

So, according to premil ECF Justin Martyr many early church Christians did not believe in premillennialism. You don't think any of the many who disagreed with him were Amils?

 

[keras]

And you try to say I need to improve my memory? I already covered this in post #417 here: The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

I checked your post #417.
You use 1 Cor 15:52 to 'prove' the Last Trump happens at the Return, but that prophecy happens at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4

And some Amils, so not all Amils, even claim some of those very same church fathers as Amils, meaning some of these church fathers that believed in 6000 years for man until the end of this present age happens. Obviously, these ECFs were basing that on a thousand years being the same as one day, as in they took the thousand years to mean a literal thousand years, while Amils today do not take it to mean a literal thousand years. It seems like a contradiction to claim some of the ECFs as Amils, while you yourself don't even believe in a literal thousand years like some ECFs obviously did.

This post is a little hard to figure out, a bit Dougggish!
But your accusation to me that I don't believe that one day in heaven equals 1000 years earth time, is wrong.
I see the prophesies in Hosea 6:2 and in Luke 13:32, as both referring to the 2000 years of the Church age, then the 1000 years of the Millennium.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I checked your post #417.
You use 1 Cor 15:52 to 'prove' the Last Trump happens at the Return, but that prophecy happens at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Proved by how it is only then that Death is no more. Revelation 21:4

If you would read 1 Cor 15:22-23 you can see that the dead in Christ will be raised at His second coming (also in 1 Thess 4:14-17). He also said they will be raised at the last trumpet. The dead in Christ are all going to be raised at the same time, so that means He is coming at the last trumpet. Very simple. Stop making what is simple complicated.

 

[DavidPT]

David, please don't say things like this without offering some evidence. Where is your evidence to show that none of the ECFs were Amils?

When Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165), a Premil, said the following, who was he talking about?

In his Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 80 Justin Martyr said regarding his belief in premillennialism: "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise" (ANF, vol. 1, p. 239).

So, according to premil ECF Justin Martyr many early church Christians did not believe in premillennialism. You don't think any of the many who disagreed with him were Amils?

Eric, unfortunately, you misunderstood me. I don't dispute that there were Amils among the ECFs. Of course there was. My point had to do with the fact that some of these ECFs clearly took the thousand years in the literal sense, while no Amil today does. It then seems like a contradiction to then claim these ECFs in question were Amils.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Eric, unfortunately, you misunderstood me. I don't dispute that there were Amils among the ECFs. Of course there was. My point had to do with the fact that some of these ECFs clearly took the thousand years in the literal sense, while no Amil today does. It then seems like a contradiction to then claim these ECFs in question were Amils.

Well, you did say "It seems like a contradiction to claim some of the ECFs as Amils", so that gave the impression that you didn't think any of them were.

As for those who believed in a literal thousand years but that it would precede the return of Christ (I assume you're referring to them?), who was calling them Amils? I think the term for them is chiliasts, but I'm not certain.

 

[DavidPT]

This post is a little hard to figure out, a bit Dougggish!
But your accusation to me that I don't believe that one day in heaven equals 1000 years earth time, is wrong.
I see the prophesies in Hosea 6:2 and in Luke 13:32, as both referring to the 2000 years of the Church age, then the 1000 years of the Millennium.

The 2nd time in a row I'm being misunderstood. I wasn't disputing anything you said in that regards. I was adding to what you said.

 

[keras]

If you would read 1 Cor 15:22-23 you can see that the dead in Christ will be raised at His second coming (also in 1 Thess 4:14-17).

If you would read Revelation 20:4, you would know that the only dead that will be raised when Jesus Returns; will be the GT martyrs.
The rest of the dead will not come to life until the thousand years are ended. Rev 20:5
Isn't that plain enough for you?

He also said they will be raised at the last trumpet.

The idea there is no more trumpet sounds after Jesus Returns, is untenable. In fact, no prophecy about the glorious Return, mentions trumpets sounding at all.
The Last Trump is to raise all the dead for Judgment, after the Millennium.
I reiterate: 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is about the GWT Judgment of all mankind, the final washup of God's 7000 year plan, the end of Death and the New Heavens and Earth, in Eternity.

 

[eclipsenow]

Good grief, man. Come on. There is no basis whatsoever for separating Matthew 25:46 from Matthew 25:31-45. You should be ashamed of yourself for doing that.

Ha ha ha - you should try discussing Jesus ministry plans from Luke 13 with him - the way he splits one verse off from another there is like violent surgery!

 

[eclipsenow]

If you would read Revelation 20:4, you would know that the only dead that will be raised when Jesus Returns; will be the GT martyrs.
The rest of the dead will not come to life until the thousand years are ended. Rev 20:5
Isn't that plain enough for you?

But you're reading the most metaphorical book in the bible over all the clearer verses in the New Testament. You're picking and choosing the bits from the rest of the bible that fit your own individual private reading of Revelation rather than looking at how scholarship over the years have viewed it. You're ignoring the obvious biblical symbolism in the passage - thrones, martyrs, souls - and instead transferring those symbols from heaven to where you want them - the earth. And you're doing it without respecting what the CLEARER passages of the New Testament actually say!

The way you split verse 46 off from the rest of this passage is absolutely untenable. It's the weakest, strangest thing I think you've done since I discovered your reading of Luke 13.

I'm left wondering if anyone else in this whole forum says the separation of the sheep and goats DOES NOT lead to eternal punishment just because they don't want the return of the Lord to = Judgement Day. Because Matthew 25 is a clear, key verse explaining that the Return of the Lord is also the final Judgement Day where everyone goes to their eternal destiny. We know from other verses that the Return of the Lord is also the resurrection of all the dead for judgement, all the Christians for salvation, and the new heavens and new earth. It all happens together, in an instant!

Matthew 25

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”​

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If you would read Revelation 20:4, you would know that the only dead that will be raised when Jesus Returns; will be the GT martyrs.
The rest of the dead will not come to life until the thousand years are ended. Rev 20:5
Isn't that plain enough for you?

That doesn't line up with what Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Cor 15:50-54, so, no, it's not plain enough for me. Try again so that you don't contradict Paul.

The idea there is no more trumpet sounds after Jesus Returns, is untenable. In fact, no prophecy about the glorious Return, mentions trumpets sounding at all.

Other than 1 Thess 4:14-17, Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Cor 15:50-54, you mean?

The Last Trump is to raise all the dead for Judgment, after the Millennium.
I reiterate: 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, is about the GWT Judgment of all mankind, the final washup of God's 7000 year plan, the end of Death and the New Heavens and Earth, in Eternity.

Yes, I agree! Except for the 7000 year plan part. It's too bad you don't recognize that Jesus returns at the last trumpet. The GWT judgment is said to occur when He comes with His angels (Matthew 25:31-46). How do you get around that? By trying to say verse 46 doesn't relate directly to verse 31-45 even though it obviously does.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

But you're reading the most metaphorical book in the bible over all the clearer verses in the New Testament. You're picking and choosing the bits from the rest of the bible that fit your own individual private reading of Revelation rather than looking at how scholarship over the years have viewed it. You're ignoring the obvious biblical symbolism in the passage - thrones, martyrs, souls - and instead transferring those symbols from heaven to where you want them - the earth. And you're doing it without respecting what the CLEARER passages of the New Testament actually say!

The way you split verse 46 off from the rest of this passage is absolutely untenable. It's the weakest, strangest thing I think you've done since I discovered your reading of Luke 13.

I'm left wondering if anyone else in this whole forum says the separation of the sheep and goats DOES NOT lead to eternal punishment just because they don't want the return of the Lord to = Judgement Day.

Even besides verse 46, isn't the following verse clearly a reference to judgment day and a clear parallel verse to Revelation 20:15?

Matthew 25:41 Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

I think he has even acknowledged before that this verse is the same thing as Rev 20:15 and it happens after the thousand years. But, Matthew 25:31 makes it quite clear that this happens when Jesus comes with His angels. Which places Matthew 25:31-46 after the thousand years, not before. Yet, he has Christ's return happening before the thousand years somehow.

The way premils handle passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 just boggles my mind. Passages like those are much more straightforward than anything we can find in the book of Revelation.

 

[keras]

But you're reading the most metaphorical book in the bible over all the clearer verses in the New Testament.

Revelation is quite clear to me. It does not contradict anything.
The issue of who will be raised when Jesus Returns is settled by Rev 20:4-5. Other verses like 1 Thess 4:14 do not say all Christians will be raised.

The way you split verse 46 off from the rest of this passage is absolutely untenable

My REBible says: And they will go away to eternal punishment, , but the righteous will enter eternal life. Matthew 25:46 The KJV is similar.

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Where did the 'Then' come from? Your Sydney special Bible?

The eternal punishment and eternal life, does not happen until God sits on His GWT - AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
My case stands; All the ungodly Satan followers will be dead after Jesus Returns, all the times of distress as Matthew 24:27-29 says.
Then Jesus's angels will gather the elect survivors to Him. Note; this is with a trumpet blast, after He has Returned.