The Day of the Lord is at Hand for all the Nations

[eclipsenow]

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Great point!

If the belief that there was going to be two new heavens and two new earths was true then why wouldn't John have said "I saw a second new heaven and a second new earth: for the first new heaven and the first new earth were passed away"?

Yes! This!
But don't expect Keras to answer this.
He only just discovered some of the basic Amil ideas that the majority of the church has accepted for 2000 years.

 

[eclipsenow]

Twice the earth is changed in the Second Coming. The 6th Seal. Revelation 6:13-14

Now you're starting to get it!

We KNOW from the rest of the New Testament that there is only one Judgement Day when all the dead are raised and judged and we get the new heavens and earth.

But Revelation - a book with all sorts of number and thematic and animal symbols - says differently. That's because it is not a timetable, but a thematic sermon.

As Bishop Paul Barnett explains, the 1000 years we are in (long period of time between Jesus resurrection and return) have the following cycles described all in parallel - along side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.

HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are concurrent, not consecutive.

Wouldn't it be ironic if we were looking for how the Corona Virus pandemic fit into some future timeline and missed it entirely because we were looking for a timeline prediction rather than a thematic description? What if we missed the entire point of Revelation, and missed biblical warnings and encouragements about our lives now - and the last 2000 years - because we were trying to read it with the wrong glasses on?
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416

 

[keras]

It's what the WHOLE of the NT says!

A flat out untruth.
Some prophesies like 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 do talk about Eternity, but it comes after Jesus has handed the Kingdom back to the Father. 1 Cor 15>24

Nothing - I repeat NOTHING - in Revelation - is "plain". It's all imagery!

Just because you are unable to understand Revelation, because of your other beliefs, do not think others cannot as well.
I view Revelation as the sequential and basically literal story of end time events.

Yeah yeah, and only an ACTUAL 144,000 people go to heaven, so as that number was filled within say 10 years of Pentecost it's ACTUALLY been impossible to become a Christian for about 2000 years.

So Revelation ACTUALLY says Jesus is an alien lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns and we're all going to hell.
Oh yeah, but it's ACTUALLY plain reading - plain as the 7 horns on Jesus head! ;-)

If you can't figure out allegories and metaphors, then you are beyond help.
The 144,000 are living people who will go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Proved by Isaiah 66:19
The Throne of God and heaven are spiritual entities in another dimension and are therefore anywhere and everywhere. They can be seen from the earth if God wills it.

How do we know it's looking at their souls alive in heaven? Because we know from the rest of the New Testament that everyone is raised together. We KNOW that - for a FACT - or maybe you didn't read Riddlebarger that carefully at all?

Riddlebarger is a false teacher. He promotes unscriptural theories. I am not interested in him, or any other so called; prophecy expert.

The raising of every person who has ever lived happens at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
NOT when Jesus Returns, only the GT martyrs are raised then.

 

[eclipsenow]

I view Revelation as the sequential and basically literal story of end time events.

One the one hand you think it's sequential and literal...

... then you go and say this...

If you can't figure out allegories and metaphors, then you are beyond help.

Which is it? Symbolic, or literal?
Does Jesus REALLY have 7 eyes and 7 horns? You just breezed past that bit. ;-)

The 144,000 are living people who will go out to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus.

Yeah, chapter 7 is SO literal the world is a square!

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. "

Hey, if you don't believe it literally I feel sorry for you!

As you said "If you can't figure out allegories and metaphors, then you are beyond help."

Proved by Isaiah 66:19

Proved is a rather strong term to describe your absolutely irrelevant claims. Where is the 144 thousand in Isaiah 66? How do we know Isaiah 66 has anything to do with Revelation 7? You're playing spin the bible! Just flap it up and down a bit and then throw a pen down at it - if the pen marks the chapter it 'means' something that must be added to your crazy wall!

The Throne of God and heaven are spiritual entities in another dimension and are therefore anywhere and everywhere. They can be seen from the earth if God wills it.

Except that is where Chapter 20 is set - John is seeing heaven. That is where the 'gazillion' years are happening - heaven - and in John's imagery John shows how God shared with him that Satan is being bound for the 'thousand years' (actually better translated 'gazillion years' for modern ears) as the gospel goes forth. I have shown this before. Satan is bound as the gospel goes forth, which is entirely constant with Acts and other verses in the new testament.

Riddlebarger is a false teacher. He promotes unscriptural theories. I am not interested in him, or any other so called; prophecy expert.

I have a few areas where as a Sydney Anglican I might disagree with some subtle points - but generally his overall description of the New Testament is spot on with how the MAJORITY of Christian thinkers have read eschatology for thousands of years. You on the other hand? You read end-times-tables into Jesus travel plans!

The raising of every person who has ever lived happens at the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

WRONG! That flatly disagrees with the vast majority of clearer NT verses that mention what is coming! Both the godly AND ungodlly are raised together. There is no "Middle" resurrection of the martyred - that's why John sees them coming "back to life" in heaven and avoiding the second death! (Hell). Or is there a third death? No - these martyrs are safe in heaven - awaiting their resurrection in the new heavens and new earth - in the new reality that is coming when ALL will be raised together and judged together.

It's imagery of the dead saints being safe with God as God prevents Satan deceiving the nations - as the gospel goes forth.

How do we know everyone is raised together and there's no middle stage? Jesus said so - he never once mentions the millennium. It's always now and then - and his return is the clear line between this age and eternal life or eternal damnation.

“The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. . . This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous” (Mt. 13:39-49). These statements are the type of clear and unambiguous texts mentioned earlier. Notice that according to this text judgement occurs immediately at Christ’s return, not after a one-thousand year millennium (as in the premillennial scheme). This is not the only line of Biblical evidence, however, for in addition to this we can find other such statements about the coming of Christ that fit very clearly into the two-age model.

According to Scripture, the resurrection of both the just and the unjust occurs simultaneously. Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24). Thus we told quite clearly that the resurrection of the just occurs on the last day, at the end of this age. In addition, Jesus also proclaims that “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48). Notice that the very same event is also said to be the time of judgment for those who reject Christ. Add to these important passages those additional verses that, relate the trumpet of God to the “last day” and to the return of Christ. The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

Thus, we can conclude that “this age” — the period of time Peter calls the “last days” (Acts 2:17), and which Jesus characterizes as a period of birth pains of wars, earthquakes, famine, and distress (Mt 24, Mk 13) — ends with the return of Christ, the resurrection and the judgement on the “last day.” An event that, by the way, Peter describes like the “day of the Lord [which] will come as a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare” (2 Pet 3:10). It is only after this that the age to come will be a present and visible reality. Notice that the focus is not upon a half-way kingdom and somewhat improved temporal age on the earth (i.e., a future millennium).​

 

[Timtofly]

Wouldn't it be ironic if we were looking for how the Corona Virus pandemic fit into some future timeline and missed it entirely because we were looking for a timeline prediction rather than a thematic description? What if we missed the entire point of Revelation, and missed biblical warnings and encouragements about our lives now - and the last 2000 years - because we were trying to read it with the wrong glasses on?

Yes it is ironic that you think I am "coming around". I speak for Revelation and God's Word. I do not speak for the majority of a so called church, that became a harlot within 300 years after the Cross. Covid19 is the first Seal, and you all have convinced yourself of a totally different scenario.

 

[Timtofly]

Yeah, chapter 7 is SO literal the world is a square!

"After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. "

Hey, if you don't believe it literally I feel sorry for you!

As you said "If you can't figure out allegories and metaphors, then you are beyond help."

Well you get it, but too bad you are just mocking God's Word.

 

[eclipsenow]

Well you get it, but too bad you are just mocking God's Word.

I'm not mocking God's word at all!
I'm highlighting bad reading of God's word.
I'm pointing out the inconsistent futurist readings of Revelation that insist it's literal - except all the bits they don't want to be literal. So to a futurist the 1000 years is a literal thousand years, and Satan is locked in a literal pit, and it's all so simple and literal. Except then there's the square earth and Jesus as a slain lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes.
Oh well - we'll just ignore John's whole genre of writing and call it 'literal' shall we?

 

[eclipsenow]

Now back to Keras.

If it's a real, literal millennium - why isn't it discussed in the rest of the New Testament? Look at Matthew 13 - which seems completely consistent with the Amillennial (no millennium) 2 age model. There's this age, then there's eternity. There's this age of sin and death and evil, then Judgement Day that leads to eternity. Check it out! There's no mention of the harvest being "after the millennium" - not at all! Just the end of THIS AGE!

MATTHEW 13.

39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear...
...
47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous
​

What? No mention of a literal millennium? Why is that?

 

[keras]

What? No mention of a literal millennium? Why is that?

Your quote from Matthew 13:39-47 is prophesying about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Proved by Revelation 20:11-15, where the ungodly will go into the Lake of Fire and those whose names are written in the Book of Life, will go into the Kingdom of the Father for Eternity.

Many other prophesies also describe this final Judgment, like 1 Corinthians 15:50-56, they all belong AFTER the Millennium. Again proved by how it is only then that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

It is wrong to believe in a general resurrection when Jesus Returns, that is a contradiction of Revelation 20:4, where it is clearly stated that only those martyrs killed for their faith during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns; will be brought back to life.

 

[keras]

There is a saying: It may not happen tomorrow, but it will happen! Zephaniah 1:14

People are becoming more and more apprehensive about the future, as we see a proliferation of natural disasters, with increasing political and economic problems, coupled with shortages of food and fuel.

But, the most obvious and dangerous flash point of concern is the Middle East. Most of the countries surrounding Israel are now in a unstable condition, with outright war in some. The very existence of the State of Israel in their midst is an anathema to them all. Psalm 83 lists the origins of those people who will conspire to ‘wipe out Israel as a nation’. When their attack commences, God will then answer the prayer of Psalms 83:13-18 Scatter them, my God, like thistledown, as a fire raging through the forest. Terrify them with Your storm winds, let them suffer disgrace and perish.


Many prophecies state how the Lord will act on this Day of His vengeance and wrath;

Micah 4:11-12 But now, many nations are massed against you, they say; Let Zion suffer, we will gloat over her downfall. They do not know God’s purpose; He has gathered them as sheaves for the threshing. Matthew 13:30

Psalms 37:13-15 The Lord will laugh at the wicked, their judgement is coming. They have prepared their weapons, but their weapons will pierce their own hearts.

Isaiah 66:15-17 See: The Lord is coming in fire, bringing His retribution and anger. He will judge with fire and sword to test all mankind. All the wicked will die.

Deuteronomy 32:41-42 I will sharpen My flashing sword and take vengeance on those who hate Me.

Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace, all evildoers will be as stubble, destroyed in a fiery blaze.

Isaiah 30:26-33 The sun will shine with seven times its normal brightness. On that day He will protect and save His people. See; the Lord Himself comes from afar, His anger blazing and His doom heavy. With fire, He sieves the nations for destruction. Ref: REB, some verses abridged.


There are many other Bible passages that describe this Day. What we can establish from them is:

1/ It is this event that takes people unawares – that ‘comes as a thief’. Much later, for the glorious Return of Jesus, we are given the exact times from certain events.

2/ It will be a worldwide event, of 24 hours duration. Isaiah 29:5-6

3/ The Lord will actually cause fire to destroy His enemies, by the means of a CME.
Their own weapons will contribute to their destruction, the heat flash and the intense electromagnetic pulse will make rockets and bombs explode on the ground.

4/ His Righteous people will be kept safe, in a short time –Isaiah 29:17, they will gather and settle in the new country of Beulah – Isaiah 62:4, Isaiah35:1-10, Jeremiah 31:7-14, Ezekiel 39:25-29

 

[eclipsenow]

Your quote from Matthew 13:39-47 is prophesying about the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

But it doesn't mention the millennium.
At all.
In fact, other verses talk about the return of the Lord as a surprise.
I THINK after 1000 years of the reign of the Godly we would have a clue when Judgement Day was coming.
Which leads to another reason I just don't believe in a literal Millennium.
God's people are resurrected in THIS world? To rule from Jerusalem for 1000 years? Really? This world? Not a new heavens and new earth? For 1000 years - we're eternal beings - and then... Satan busts loose to gather the nations for battle against God? Really? Literally?

If only the godly are raised for the 1000 year reign - who is it Satan is gathering to battle against God? Who would be that stupid once they've seen a 1000 year reign of a literal Jesus from a literal Mt Zion in a literal Jerusalem?

Your main problem is NOT just that the rest of the New Testament is utterly silent on this bizarre reading of John's heavenly martyrs ruling for the gazillion years while THIS AGE plays out. It's not just that there is NO SURPRISE for Judgement Day - as a millennium kind of gives it away! It's this. Where are the ungodly nations that are going to rebel against Christ?

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.​

They don't exist. That's because THIS WHOLE WORLD is not in view here. Heaven is. These martyred saints are reigning in safety with Christ - from where Christ is right now. For the whole 'gazillion years' of 2000 years and counting!

 

[keras]

But it doesn't mention the millennium.

Prophecy is is about specific events, only Revelation gives the whole picture, in correct sequence.

Which leads to another reason I just don't believe in a literal Millennium.
God's people are resurrected in THIS world?

NOWHERE does the Bible say there will be a general resurrection when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4 undeniably says that the only people brought back to life, will be the martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year period of Satan's reign. Revelation 13:5-8
Some prophesies promise the resurrection and then Eternal life of the faithful peoples, but we know this happens at the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

If only the godly are raised for the 1000 year reign - who is it Satan is gathering to battle against God? Who would be that stupid once they've seen a 1000 year reign of a literal Jesus from a literal Mt Zion in a literal Jerusalem?

All the people alive who go into the Millennium with King Jesus, will be faithful Christians. But after 1000 years, Satan will be able to seduce many with his lies. Revelation 20:7-10 tells the story of what will happen. Remember how the ancient Israelites very quickly fell away from God and worshipped idols, even after seeing the power of God to save them.

Where are the ungodly nations that are going to rebel against Christ?

When Jesus Returns, there will be a great army gathered at Armageddon to oppose Him. Revelation 16:13-14
Jesus will kill them all by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:21

Note; how different this victory is, to the Lords Day of fiery wrath, which happens several years before the Return, Revelation 6:12-17 and the attack after the Millennium. Revelation 20:9b

 

[eclipsenow]

Prophecy is is about specific events, only Revelation gives the whole picture, in correct sequence.

NOWHERE does the Bible say there will be a general resurrection when Jesus Returns. Revelation 20:4 undeniably says that the only people brought back to life, will be the martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year period of Satan's reign. Revelation 13:5-8
Some prophesies promise the resurrection and then Eternal life of the faithful peoples, but we know this happens at the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

All the people alive who go into the Millennium with King Jesus, will be faithful Christians. But after 1000 years, Satan will be able to seduce many with his lies. Revelation 20:7-10 tells the story of what will happen. Remember how the ancient Israelites very quickly fell away from God and worshipped idols, even after seeing the power of God to save them.

When Jesus Returns, there will be a great army gathered at Armageddon to oppose Him. Revelation 16:13-14
Jesus will kill them all by the Sword of His Word. Revelation 19:21

Note; how different this victory is, to the Lords Day of fiery wrath, which happens several years before the Return, Revelation 6:12-17 and the attack after the Millennium. Revelation 20:9b

But the rest of the New Testament doesn't have all these mini-judgements - just the one great Judgement Day which occurs suddenly, surprisingly, and catastrophically for those who don't believe.

Believers are most definitely NOT raised during a Millennium - but during the Last Day.
Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24, 12:48

We also know that both believers and unbelievers are raised on the Last Day for the one judgment day.

A millennium just doesn't fit.

 

[keras]

But the rest of the New Testament doesn't have all these mini-judgements - just the one great Judgement Day which occurs suddenly, surprisingly, and catastrophically for those who don't believe.

This will be the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Isaiah 24:1-6

Believers are most definitely NOT raised during a Millennium - but during the Last Day.
Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24, 12:48

We also know that both believers and unbelievers are raised on the Last Day for the one judgment day.

Right; at the Last and final day of God's 7000 year Plan for mankind. Just as Revelation 20:1-5 describes.
We are now at 5990 years since Adam. Jesus will soon Return and then comes the final 1000 years of the benevolent reign of King Jesus.
THEN the wrap up, Rev 20:11-15, and Eternity commences for those whose names are found in the Book of Life.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not mocking God's word at all!
I'm highlighting bad reading of God's word.
I'm pointing out the inconsistent futurist readings of Revelation that insist it's literal - except all the bits they don't want to be literal. So to a futurist the 1000 years is a literal thousand years, and Satan is locked in a literal pit, and it's all so simple and literal. Except then there's the square earth and Jesus as a slain lamb with 7 horns and 7 eyes.
Oh well - we'll just ignore John's whole genre of writing and call it 'literal' shall we?

The earth is square. Jesus as the Lamb was the Atonement. Lamb is not literal but the Atonement was. Are you mocking the Atonement by questioning why Jesus is the Lamb? 1000 is not a symbol. 1000 is a mathematical term meaning 1000. It is quite simple, and God did not leave it up to any guess work in Revelation 20. John even told us almost all the names of the dragon so we did not have to guess. As for a literal chain and pit, and a key, we will just have to wait and see. Are you saying the pit cannot be opened at all, or shut?

 

[eclipsenow]

I'll just correct the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 for you - so that your literal millennium works. He seems to have got something wrong that does not allow your view - so we'll just fix that for the good Apostle hey? Correction in burgundy below.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body....​

...50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”​

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Except when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations of raised, imperishable beings in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore - and are about to be destroyed - so what good was being raised imperishable? What security is there in Christ anyway?​

 

[keras]

I'll just correct the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 for you - so that your literal millennium works. He seems to have got something wrong that does not allow your view - so we'll just fix that for the good Apostle hey? Correction in burgundy below.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body....​

...50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”​

55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Except when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations of raised, imperishable beings in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore - and are about to be destroyed - so what good was being raised imperishable? What security is there in Christ anyway?​

You have missed the salient point; that Paul does not say when Death would be swallowed up in victory.
But for people who actually study their Bibles, this detail can be found in Revelation 21:4. AFTER the Millennium.
No one will be raised immortal before the GWT Judgement when the Book of Life will be opened and Eternity commences, with God Himself dwelling with mankind on earth. Revelation 21 to 22

Neither does Jesus say when Eternal life will be conferred. John 3:16
It is just the fanciful notions of the confused and deceived, that think they can get 'glorified bodies' and 'go to heaven', who believe and what is worse; teach such unscriptural lies.

 

[eclipsenow]

You have missed the salient point; that Paul does not say when Death would be swallowed up in victory.
But for people who actually study their Bibles, this detail can be found in Revelation 21:4. AFTER the Millennium.

Oh? So now you don't really believe Revelation literally after all?

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

No one will be raised immortal before the GWT Judgement

Except I thought you believed Revelation 20 was literal?

when the Book of Life will be opened and Eternity commences, with God Himself dwelling with mankind on earth. Revelation 21 to 22

I agree - but you believe Jesus (who is God) will reign from Jerusalem with a bunch of resurrected, imperishable believers?

Neither does Jesus say when Eternal life will be conferred. John 3:16

Well, it begins now as we believe in him and then is granted when we die.

It is just the fanciful notions of the confused and deceived, that think they can get 'glorified bodies' and 'go to heaven', who believe and what is worse; teach such unscriptural lies.

"Confused and deceived" (so gracious! )
Not really sure what the rest of your rather incomprehensible sentence is even saying.

So yeah - I guess my question to you is can you even define who is alive in the millennium and why you claim to believe it is real and literal writing yet these believers who "came to life" didn't really get the resurrection from the dead Paul describes, but are in some other state Paul doesn't describe!

"Confused and deceived" indeed!

 

[keras]

No one will be raised immortal before the GWT Judgement when the Book of Life will be opened and Eternity commences, with God Himself dwelling with mankind on earth.

Except I thought you believed Revelation 20 was literal?

Be good for you to read what Revelation 20:4 actually says.
The KJV says; ....and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
the REB says; They came to life again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
It does not say they will become immortal, in fact it says they may die again, but over them the second death has no power. Their immortality is assured, as their names are in the Book of Life.

I agree - but you believe Jesus (who is God) will reign from Jerusalem with a bunch of resurrected, imperishable believers?

Jesus will reign as King of the earth for the Millennium, then He will hand the Kingdom back to the Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24
Note that all the faithful Christians will be there too. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:21

Well, it begins now as we believe in him and then is granted when we die.

Immortality is granted when we stand before God on His Great White Throne; to all those faithful believers whose names are found in the BoL.
As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:51, there will be some who will be alive at the end of the Millennium, who will never die, but be instantly transformed into immortality, then. NOT before!
But for those who have died, it will be the next conscious moment after their death, they will be standing alongside every other person who has ever lived, before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:12-13

Not really sure what the rest of your rather incomprehensible sentence is even saying.

Sorry, I did refer to the false 'rapture to heaven' theory there.

So yeah - I guess my question to you is can you even define who is alive in the millennium and why you claim to believe it is real and literal writing yet these believers who "came to life" didn't really get the resurrection from the dead Paul describes, but are in some other state Paul doesn't describe!

The people in the Millennium are just mortal humans, as we are now. But according to Isaiah 65:20, they may live much longer, like the antediluvian peoples.

 

[eclipsenow]

Be good for you to read what Revelation 20:4 actually says.
The KJV says; ....and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
the REB says; They came to life again and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
It does not say they will become immortal, in fact it says they may die again, but over them the second death has no power. Their immortality is assured, as their names are in the Book of Life.

Ohhhhhh - riiiiiiight.
That's that special verse in 1 Corinthians 15 where we get Resuscitated into a perishable body from death, not Resurrected into an imperishable body.
Riiiiiiiiiiiight.
Got it!


So there I was believing basic gospel verses, but they're all false hope.
Apparently being faithful in this life is not enough.
I've got to struggle and die in the next millennial age which isn't sounding so great right now.
I'll probably get old and die even though it says they 'reigned a 1000 years' (who's not reading Rev 20 literally now?).
But hey, even if I somehow am alive for 1000 years as the verse says, now you're saying that I could be tempted and fall away again (after being resurrected) in the great rebellion of the nations for Gog / Magog?

Buddy, you've pretty much destroyed the gospel.

Note that all the faithful Christians will be there too.

No - you've destroyed any certainty of that.
Who rebels in Gog / Magog? That's got to come from the resurrected saints - so you've destroyed the gospel.

Either that or you're not taking Revelation 19 seriously where all the ungodly are judged.

The Heavenly Warrior Defeats the Beast
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.​

Immortality is granted when we stand before God on His Great White Throne;

Yes! But it's also granted in the twinkling of an eye.
It's granted - somehow - after we die.
Personally I think we go straight from our moment of death to the end of time to be resurrected at the Last Day - as we are physical beings with spiritual software (if I can use that crude analogy.) I'm not sure that we lurk around 'in heaven' with our souls awaiting our bodies in some kind of virtual reality. We're married to this physical universe and the wonderful thing about the vision of the New Jerusalem is that it is heaven coming down to us - God somehow weaving the spiritual to the physical permanently. I seriously recommend you look at 1 Cor 15 again - as in read it once a day for a week - and REALLY meditate on what it says.

Because that's what happens when we die - not your freaky undead Millennium thing!

The people in the Millennium are just mortal humans, as we are now.

They came back to life!
They were RESURRECTED!

But according to Isaiah 65:20, they may live much longer, like the antediluvian peoples.

Look - I suggest you start writing Sci-Fi stories instead of theology. That's what you seem to enjoy more!

This conversation has just convinced me more than ever that Rev 20's 'millennium' is a picture of the saints safety 'in heaven' (which may or may not be a metaphysical statement about their status after death as aware that they are 'in heaven') - but is definitely a statement about how Jesus is reigning even while bad things are happening on the earth - and we'll be OK on the Last Day.