• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Dark Ages Myth

civilwarbuff

Constitutionalist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2015
15,873
7,590
Columbus
✟756,257.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Slavery disappeared in Europe by about 1200 on economic and social factors.
Slavery Abolition Act 1833

Slavery Abolition Act 1833

United Kingdom

Long titleAn Act for the Abolition of Slavery throughout the British Colonies; for promoting the Industry of the manumitted Slaves; and for compensating the Persons hitherto entitled to the Services of such Slaves.Citation3 & 4 Will.4 c.73DatesRoyal assent28 August 1833Commencement1 August 1834
1 December 1834 (Cape of Good Hope)
1 February 1835 (Mauritius)Repealed19 November 1998Other legislationRepealed byStatute Law (Repeals) Act 1998Relates toSlave Trade Act 1807, Slave Trade Act 1824, Slave Trade Act 1843, Slave Trade Act 1873

Status: Repealed

Text of statute as originally enacted

The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 (citation 3 & 4 Will. IV c. 73) was an 1833 Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdomabolishing slavery throughout the British Empire (with the exceptions "of the Territories in the Possession of the East India Company", the "Island of Ceylon" and "the Island of Saint Helena"; the exceptions were eliminated in 1843). The Act was repealed in 1998 as part of a wider rationalization of English statute law, but later anti-slavery legislation remains in force.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,223
South Africa
✟324,143.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Slavery Abolition Act 1833

Slavery Abolition Act 1833

United Kingdom

Long titleAn Act for the Abolition of Slavery throughout the British Colonies; for promoting the Industry of the manumitted Slaves; and for compensating the Persons hitherto entitled to the Services of such Slaves.Citation3 & 4 Will.4 c.73DatesRoyal assent28 August 1833Commencement1 August 1834
1 December 1834 (Cape of Good Hope)
1 February 1835 (Mauritius)Repealed19 November 1998Other legislationRepealed byStatute Law (Repeals) Act 1998Relates toSlave Trade Act 1807, Slave Trade Act 1824, Slave Trade Act 1843, Slave Trade Act 1873

Status: Repealed

Text of statute as originally enacted

The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 (citation 3 & 4 Will. IV c. 73) was an 1833 Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdomabolishing slavery throughout the British Empire (with the exceptions "of the Territories in the Possession of the East India Company", the "Island of Ceylon" and "the Island of Saint Helena"; the exceptions were eliminated in 1843). The Act was repealed in 1998 as part of a wider rationalization of English statute law, but later anti-slavery legislation remains in force.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833
Yes exactly. Slavery was not abolished in the Middle Ages, but merely replaced by Serfdom and later forms of tenantry and indentured labour. This is why Europe could seamlessly ship slaves to their colonies during the Age of Discovery.

Incidentally, this very Act played an important part in my country's history and my family history. Along with the Slachtersnek Rebellion and a heavy handed British policy, the insufficient compensation for their slaves led many Cape Dutch to move into the hinterland of South Africa and form free republics, becoming the Boers (the Great Trek).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
They were not dark at all..

Actually, they were. Your complaint seems to be that you think that people associate the darkness with the emerging Church. The Church grew and became the most prominent element in society during those days. But most historians will tell you that the force of the Church was positive. It helped moderate the darkness and was one reason that learning and civility were not extinguished altogether. You could say that we have the Church to thank for preparing the way for a better future. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the Dark Ages were not really quite dark in the aftermath of the collapse of Classical civilization.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Never said anything about innovation, I was actually arguing that the Middle Ages were better than a 'dark' age. The fact remains though that Europe was poorer, less healthy and less populous than China or the Islamic world in 1400.
European metalurgy was way better than Chinese smelting, which is why Europe could make Cannon and China only small handguns. The Chinese had insufficient skill to create barrels that could cope with the stress.

Islamic countries used different military styles to the the Europeans, favouring light cavalry. This was a disadvantage in a straight charge, but as the battle of Hattin can attest, the Islamic strategy was also effective. Heavy Cavalry is not necessarily better than light cavalry, depends on the military situation.


Read the extent works of Heron of Alexandria: Pneumatica and Automapoeia explains in some detail his steam engine. A working example has also been built.
Ausonius's Mosella has an extensive description of a marble cutting watermill on the Moselle river in the fourth century.
Ammianus Marcellinus' XXIII letter speaks of a water powered saw mill.
Orjan Wikander and Michael Lewis have written extensively and done 30 years worth of Archeological digs that shows widespread wind and watermill use in Roman Britain and Gaul.
No, by your defintion in this post it isn't, as Dutch reclamation mostly happened after 1300. Putting lenses on a piece of wire is not a major innovation. Lenses themselves were, which had to be rediscovered.
The Romans already used saddles, the four horn type which Eastern Roman Cataphrachts modified into the high saddle of the middle ages. This was an advantage to heavy cavalry.
The Muslims used lower saddles modified from the Roman design as well, which was better suited for light cavalry.
The Huns invaded in the 5th century and did not use Stirrups. It was introduced in the 7th century by the Avars, with the first reference to it the Strategikon of Emperor Maurice.
Correct. Read what I wrote. Man-powered galleys were better for Mediterranean warfare which is why they remained the primary military shipping there until the rise of Cannon. The battle of Lepanto in the 16th century was still fought by man-powered galleys. The Romans had sails and exclusively wind-powered vessels as well, just as Venice did in the 16th.

Regardless, Slavery was never outlawed. Bathilde outlawed slave-trading in the Merovingian realm though.
For instance 10% of the English population in the Domesday book were slaves.
The Feudal system and the establishment of serfdom replaced the Roman slave system and lead to a decline and eventual death of slavery in continental Europe. The Crusaders however, acquired and used slaves in Outremer, as did some monarchs for instance the Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II.
It was expected to free Christian slaves in Jubilee years and was considered a commendable act, but the institution of slavery was never outlawed nor was there a concerted attempt to do so. Slavery disappeared in Europe by about 1200 on economic and social factors.

In some respects an improvement and in others not. Roman structures are still standing securely while many Mediaeval ones are crumbling and tilting.
You are equating all Roman Architecture to a few examples, few would agree that the Colosseum or most Aquaduct systems could be considered to have thick walls.
The most important decline from Roman times in this respect was the decline in waterproofing and the loss of Concrete.

Quibbling yes, as I said 'roughly 1200'. Ancient academies were also not really for teaching alone but for innovation. We see multiple works on science, astronomy, biology etc. which came from there.

Um, yes there was a cultural decline called by scholars the 'Dark Ages' (not your definition of the term) up to about the 800s AD.
Christian Europe did not achieve Roman levels of population, health, life expectancy or productivity until the 18th century.
Also knowledge of Mechanics and Physics was quite lacking. Most of the Greco-Roman science had to be rediscovered from Arabic texts in the high middle ages. From the late middle ages they had surpassed the ancient world in certain fields, but by no means all.

Again Renaissance isn't a myth as it was a dramatic departure from the thought paradigm that came before it even though it wasn't an instantaneous process or a specific point that can be said to be the beginning of it.
You yourself called it a decline from the middle ages, so how can a myth be a decline?

There were advances from the Ancient World in the Middle Ages, but by no means did they surpass it 'in every way'.
There was a steep decline of all factors: health, life expectancy, population, productivity, knowledge etc. when the Western Roman world fell. Europe then took two or three centuries to dust itself off and began recovering itself thereafter. It is a specious argument to see the Middle Ages as a unit, as an advance on the Ancient world and deny the very real decline that initiated it.
Some things got better, others not so much.

The Enlightenment and Renaissance are other arguments entirely and depends on what you consider advancement and what not.
The entire point of this thread is to show that the Dark Ages were not dark at all, that advances during the Renaissance were a direct result of advances made in the Dark Ages, and that the idea that the Catholic Church suppressed all kinds of innovation during the Dark Ages is completely false. Furthermore, just as a group of eighteenth-century philosophers invented the notion of the Dark Ages to discredit Christianity, they labeled their own era the Enlightenment on grounds that religious darkness had finally been dispelled by secular humanism.

I never said that Europe abolished slavery by law, but the Church did abolish slavery by its own actions. Part of the reason for the health, population, and life expectancy problem in Europe was the decimation of society in general by the Plagues. Quite honestly, to this day, there is no cure for anyone contracting the plague, though they may live a longer life than those in those times.
The myth of the Renaissance is that it proposes that Europe was saved from ignorance when intellectuals in various northern-Italian city-states broke free from Church control to allow a rebirth of classical knowledge. If that were true, it would have created an era of cultural decline since Christian Europe had surpassed classical antiquity in many ways. Unfortunately, the creators of the Renaissance myth had no knowledge of the immense progress of the Dark Ages and based their assessments on the extent to which scholars were familiar with Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Euclid, and other big names in classical learning and literature. But even that was restored long before the Renaissance. This is fully supported by surviving monastery library catalogues from as far back as the 12th century. The Italian Renaissance was a period of cultural emulation during which people copied the classical styles in all sorts of disciplines.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Actually, they were. Your complaint seems to be that you think that people associate the darkness with the emerging Church. The Church grew and became the most prominent element in society during those days. But most historians will tell you that the force of the Church was positive. It helped moderate the darkness and was one reason that learning and civility were not extinguished altogether. You could say that we have the Church to thank for preparing the way for a better future. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the Dark Ages were not really quite dark in the aftermath of the collapse of Classical civilization.
There was plenty of innovation, in fact, were it not for scientific breakthroughs in the Dark Ages, we wouldn't have had Copernicus' theory of heliocentrism, just to name one.

The culture today believes Renaissance/Enlightenment = all good, Dark Ages/Scholasticism = all bad. And this is mainly because of self-aggrandizement by the authors of the Renaissance and Enlightenment and the onslaught of secular humanism.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Yes exactly. Slavery was not abolished in the Middle Ages, but merely replaced by Serfdom and later forms of tenantry and indentured labour. This is why Europe could seamlessly ship slaves to their colonies during the Age of Discovery.

Incidentally, this very Act played an important part in my country's history and my family history. Along with the Slachtersnek Rebellion and a heavy handed British policy, the insufficient compensation for their slaves led many Cape Dutch to move into the hinterland of South Africa and form free republics, becoming the Boers (the Great Trek).
I didn't say slavery was abolished by law. I said that by the actions of Catholic leaders, it was extinguished-and not once but twice (when it was abolished in the Western Hemisphere). Serfdom was a working/living arrangement between a landowner and people who needed to support themselves. While it was a life-long commitment, even generational, it is not the same as slavery. Slaves owned nothing, not even their lives. They could be sold and bought. Serfs were indentured, but that meant that the lord of the manor owed them something-namely, living place and sustenance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: civilwarbuff
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The entire point of this thread is to show that the Dark Ages were not dark at all, that advances during the Renaissance were a direct result of advances made in the Dark Ages, and that the idea that the Catholic Church suppressed all kinds of innovation during the Dark Ages is completely false. .

The only way to save your argument is to say that there were SOME characteristics or developments during the Dark Ages that LED TO a revival later on. Well, no one who knows history would deny that kind of wording.

But OTOH, to pretend that the Dark Ages weren't deserving of being called "dark" is very dubious. No, those centuries were not 100% absent of anything worthwhile, like some black hole in space, but they certainly represent the low point in the whole history of the West.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Slavery Abolition Act 1833

Slavery Abolition Act 1833

United Kingdom

Long titleAn Act for the Abolition of Slavery throughout the British Colonies; for promoting the Industry of the manumitted Slaves; and for compensating the Persons hitherto entitled to the Services of such Slaves.Citation3 & 4 Will.4 c.73DatesRoyal assent28 August 1833Commencement1 August 1834
1 December 1834 (Cape of Good Hope)
1 February 1835 (Mauritius)Repealed19 November 1998Other legislationRepealed byStatute Law (Repeals) Act 1998Relates toSlave Trade Act 1807, Slave Trade Act 1824, Slave Trade Act 1843, Slave Trade Act 1873

Status: Repealed

Text of statute as originally enacted

The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 (citation 3 & 4 Will. IV c. 73) was an 1833 Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdomabolishing slavery throughout the British Empire (with the exceptions "of the Territories in the Possession of the East India Company", the "Island of Ceylon" and "the Island of Saint Helena"; the exceptions were eliminated in 1843). The Act was repealed in 1998 as part of a wider rationalization of English statute law, but later anti-slavery legislation remains in force.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833
Right. I didn't claim that slavery was abolished by law.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
The only way to save your argument is to say that there were SOME characteristics or developments during the Dark Ages that LED TO a revival later on. Well, no one who knows history would deny that kind of wording.

But OTOH, to pretend that the Dark Ages weren't deserving of being called "dark" is very dubious. No, those centuries were not 100% absent of anything worthwhile, like some black hole in space, but they certainly represent the low point in the whole history of the West.
Baloney. I've already detailed many innovations that came from the so-called "Dark Ages". There are many books that detail them even further, if you cared to look.
The move from astrology to astronomy, the move from alchemy to chemistry, the innovations of gunpowder to power projectiles, wind and water to power machinery, the modern university, the hospital, the move to polyphony in music, Romanesque and Gothic art and architecture, Dante, Chaucer, and the monks who devoted themselves to writing the lives of the saints. So many innovations.
Many people think that the Scientific Revolution started with Copernicus discovery of heliocentrism, but nothing could be further from the truth.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Baloney. I've already detailed many innovations that came from the so-called "Dark Ages"..
Doesn't change a thing...and neither does resorting to fistpounding. I have acknowledged that not every last thing about the Dark Ages was awful, and no one's saying that this was the true state of affairs, either. But, on the other hand, the campaign to make it out to be some Golden Age merely because your denomination was in the ascendency during the Dark Ages is what's really deserving of being called "baloney."
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Doesn't change a thing...and neither does resorting to fistpounding. I have acknowledged that not every last thing about the Dark Ages was awful, and no one's saying that this was the true state of affairs, either. But, on the other hand, the campaign to make it out to be some Golden Age merely because your denomination was in the ascendency during the Dark Ages is what's really deserving of being called "baloney."
No one is saying that the Dark Ages weren't really Dark? Actually, most modern history text books say exactly that. I guess, though, that you miss that point. There were no Dark Ages, and no Renaissance. There was a constant state of improvement in Europe, even innovation that put them above and beyond the Chinese and Arabs. The label "Dark Ages" was a product of anti-Catholics who wanted to perpetrate the myth that the Catholic Church suppressed most forms of knowledge and innovation.
 
Upvote 0

SnowyMacie

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2011
17,008
6,087
North Texas
✟125,659.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
The entire point of this thread is to show that the Dark Ages were not dark at all, that advances during the Renaissance were a direct result of advances made in the Dark Ages, and that the idea that the Catholic Church suppressed all kinds of innovation during the Dark Ages is completely false. Furthermore, just as a group of eighteenth-century philosophers invented the notion of the Dark Ages to discredit Christianity, they labeled their own era the Enlightenment on grounds that religious darkness had finally been dispelled by secular humanism.

I never said that Europe abolished slavery by law, but the Church did abolish slavery by its own actions. Part of the reason for the health, population, and life expectancy problem in Europe was the decimation of society in general by the Plagues. Quite honestly, to this day, there is no cure for anyone contracting the plague, though they may live a longer life than those in those times.
The myth of the Renaissance is that it proposes that Europe was saved from ignorance when intellectuals in various northern-Italian city-states broke free from Church control to allow a rebirth of classical knowledge. If that were true, it would have created an era of cultural decline since Christian Europe had surpassed classical antiquity in many ways. Unfortunately, the creators of the Renaissance myth had no knowledge of the immense progress of the Dark Ages and based their assessments on the extent to which scholars were familiar with Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Euclid, and other big names in classical learning and literature. But even that was restored long before the Renaissance. This is fully supported by surviving monastery library catalogues from as far back as the 12th century. The Italian Renaissance was a period of cultural emulation during which people copied the classical styles in all sorts of disciplines.


@Albion is right (believe me, if we're agreeing on something, you should listen to what we have to say). Every major historical scholar believes the role of the church during the "Dark Ages" was a positive one. If anything, the Church saved Western civilization. Most universities developed as part of the church, the church saved many important manuscripts from the Greco-Roman era, the church essentially kept society from completely collapsing and falling apart, the dark ages were not caused by the church, and the Roman Empire was already declining when Christianity was legalized and became dominant.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,425
20,719
Orlando, Florida
✟1,506,862.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Western Christendom was really a cultural backwater in that period. All the cool stuff was happening in the east, technologically, culturally, politically, religiously (I don't think Roman Catholics realize how much of Catholic piety actually developed in the east- western Christianity was very "plain" in comparison).
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
@Albion is right (believe me, if we're agreeing on something, you should listen to what we have to say). Every major historical scholar believes the role of the church during the "Dark Ages" was a positive one. If anything, the Church saved Western civilization. Most universities developed as part of the church, the church saved many important manuscripts from the Greco-Roman era, the church essentially kept society from completely collapsing and falling apart, the dark ages were not caused by the church, and the Roman Empire was already declining when Christianity was legalized and became dominant.
That's why I say it's a myth, and that it is still perpetrated and taught as a fact in school, most textbooks teach it.
The Catholic Church did save Western Civilization, and did move Europe forward in many, many ways. Were there setbacks? Sure-when are there not? We are in agreement, in other words, while history books are wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Root of Jesse

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord
Site Supporter
Jun 23, 2011
18,909
3,645
Bay Area, California
Visit site
✟399,065.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Western Christendom was really a cultural backwater in that period. All the cool stuff was happening in the east, technologically, culturally, politically, religiously (I don't think Roman Catholics realize how much of Catholic piety actually developed in the east- western Christianity was very "plain" in comparison).
No, it wasn't. There was activity in all major disciplines, education, theology, science and technology, the arts. By the last half of the period, Greek wasn't even known in the west, thereby requiring that books be translated to Latin.
 
Upvote 0

SnowyMacie

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2011
17,008
6,087
North Texas
✟125,659.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
That's why I say it's a myth, and that it is still perpetrated and taught as a fact in school, most textbooks teach it.
The Catholic Church did save Western Civilization, and did move Europe forward in many, many ways. Were there setbacks? Sure-when are there not? We are in agreement, in other words, while history books are wrong.

I minored in history and have read several textbooks and am also a certified history teacher, I've never once read a textbook that said what you're claiming they say.
 
Upvote 0

SoldierOfTheKing

Christian Spenglerian
Jan 6, 2006
9,242
3,050
Kenmore, WA
✟294,168.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Slavery was not abolished in the Middle Ages, but merely replaced by Serfdom and later forms of tenantry and indentured labour.

By that logic, slavery still hasn't been abolished today, but merely replaced with the capitalist wage system. Abolish one economic system, such as slavery, necessarily implies developing another one to replace it with.

civilwarbuff said:
Slavery Abolition Act 1833

That law pertained to Britain's colonies, not Britain itself.

Anyway, the reason the Early Middle Ages were called the "Dark Ages" is because there are relatively few historical records from this time period, and so we know less about it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Winken

Heimat
Site Supporter
Sep 24, 2010
5,709
3,505
✟213,877.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Wow...... after the summer interlude all history professors need to use this forum as their text in why there is so much disagreement over the "dark ages." (But I'm afraid the students would sit there glassy-eyed.)
 
Upvote 0

Lepanto

Newbie
Jun 16, 2008
519
143
Liverpool
✟34,831.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The Dark Ages refers to the early Middle Ages only.

The later Middle Ages was not dark, on the contrary, it was an era of progress in knowledge and technology.
The mechanical clock, eye glasses, printing press, etc were invented during that time.
The university and schools were born during that time.
The foundation of science was also established during the Middle Ages (read "God's Philosophers").
 
Upvote 0

Lepanto

Newbie
Jun 16, 2008
519
143
Liverpool
✟34,831.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Spiritual darkness is the worst darkness, and that is what the Catholic Church had created. John Wycliffe lived in the Dark Ages and was branded a heretic because he brought light and truth to the masses. Instead of appreciating Wycliffe, he was condemned.

That's nonsense. By that logic, you can also say your lecturer brought darkness to your academic life.
He/she would penalize you every time you made a mistake in your exam (or assignment); you must listen to he/she.

But a legitimate authority does not bring darkness.

How can you judge what Wycliffe brought is truth or not ? You say yes, I say no, she says no, and so on.
There are 32000+ different denominations. That just shows there must be a human authority apart from the Bible -
an authority which our Saviour appointed - to give us correct interpretations of the Bible.

Dr Scott Hahn have said similar things as you did - but what he became now ?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0