The dangers of Calvinism belief - Eternal Security

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AndOne

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If one disagreed with Calvinism, Zwingly went on his own, then knox disagreed with Calvin, Wesley disagreed and founded his own. And I can go on and on. All of them are using scripture as their authority, as do Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, and many others.

If scripture has authority who is actually using the authority. Someone has it incorrect unless you also believe that the gospel is a smorgasborg of choices and it matters not really what they believe as long as the Bible was used as a source?

You're wrong here though - just because different people interpret differently does not mean that scripture looses its authority. As stated earlier - I myself part ways with Calvin on many issues and as far as Wesley is concerned though I disagree with him on many issues I believe he was a Christian. Though we all have disagreements - on the essentials we agree.

As far as JWs go - they don't use scripture but have a purposely twisted translantion (NWT) to support their non-trinitarian views. They do not hold to the essentials of Christianty and are therefor not. There are many sects who interpret the Bible on essential issues that are wrong - those we part ways with.

Of course them Muslims fall right in. Mohammend used examples from the Assyrian Christians where he lived and grew up. He respected the Book people as he called them and incorporated some of scripture into the Koran. Amazing how men use scripture?
I don't believe this - and I guarantee you a muslim would be offended by such a statement.

Eliminate the Muslins, but all the others also claim the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as do you. Which HOly Spirit are you talking about? Which is giving the ONCE given Gospel of JUde 3?

I don't know, but you tell me?

Oh please...



so you do, and I asked you to do so but also show that Christianity existed prior to Calvin and what did they believe? If they used scripture as authoritative as you, then we should have some evidence over 1500 years of the authority of scripture. I am assuming you believe that the scriptures also existed prior to Calvin? Were there any Christians that existed prior to Calvin?

Luther was before Calvin - John Huss was before Luther - "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" documents believers who held to the authority of scripture over the traditions of man before the period of the reformation.

I'm not the one who derailed it. I'm simply answering your questions.
Must have me mixed-up with someone else - I don't recall asking you any questions other than what's your beef with calvinism and that was very recently. Here's another question - why don't you start your own thread on this topic and keep the discussion there?



First, unfortunately, it has a very systematic, organized view. It is easy to refute it from scripture as well as from the historical record of Christianity. Arminians are not as organized, and when Arminius refuted Calvin at Dordt, on the five points which was from scripture, was actually correct regarding Calvinism. They also have far more variations than Calvinism. In other words more admixture of correct and incorrect based on scripture as it historically has been understood, and yes, by the EOC which has existed from the beginning.

For someone who puts a lot of faith in history - you sure don't seem to have yours right. Arminius didn't refute the five points at Dordt....

You need to understand, Calvinism is so well organized and based on one premise, Predestination which is all that needs to be refuted, which anyone can show has never existed in any Church prior to Calvin, EOC, OOC and RCC. Thus if that is not true, the five points are not true because they are based on the false premise of predestination. Some Calvinist will deny this, but if you actually deny any point of Calvin'S (Dorht's) TULIP, you have denied all the rest as viable. Calvin built a house of cards that can easily be refuted and can clearly be shown to be historically untenable as being scriptural in any sense of the word.

Scripture - its all in scripture - it wasn't developed by Calvin. Predestination is in scripture - as has been shown over and over again.

There are many who don't agree with all the five points whom I still embrace as fellow christians.

Outside of that all protestants have incorporated Anselms satisfaction theory for the definition of atonement, whether limited or unlimited. They all have adopted the RCC understanding of Original Sin which was not a teaching of the early Church either. It was first mentioned by Augustine, but accepted by the RCC at the Council of Trent.

Scripture - its all in scripture - the doctrine of original sin can be found in Romans 3. It wasn't developed by anyone later.



I don't need to go any further than the Incarnation to refute all of Calvinism. Predestination as understood by Calvin and most Calvinists is diametrically opposed to the historical understanding of the Incarnation. This includes election as understood by Calvinists as well.

Scripture - its all in scripture. Predestination is in Romans 8 and 9. Election is in Ephesians 1.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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and which man-made doctrine do you believe?

Calvinists believe a lot of the same man-made doctrines that you do.
But they may not those which flow from the EOC's understanding of EOC Tradition.





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Rightglory

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Tzaousios,

Here, as the representative of Orthodoxy, you have declared Reformed Christians to be heretics and anathematized on par with Arius and Nestorius. You are complicit.
As every Orthodox is whether they say it or not. It is not the person, it is the Body of which each person is only one.

We are not speaking about personal interpretations and personal faiths, whereby individuals create their own and then declare another heretical. It is the consensus of the Body that made the declarations for the safety of those Orthodox who might be led astray. This is precisely what has been done by the Body, through the power of the Holy Spirit since Pentacost. It is precisely what Paul did which is recorded in that scripture that you call authoritiative. That is clear and simple to read.

Brag? Why do you mock me? Might as well add that to the list. Your ex-Protestant sour grapes are spewing their putrid pulp in all directions.

Your the one that wants to make it personal. Your the one with the sour grapes. If that is what you want to consider it, then surely it should not bother you, but clearly it does.

Despite your tossing out a definition, which is really just more rhetorical bloviation, Reformed Christians are heretics, are anathematized, and are in danger of hellfire as the primary targets of your monocausal apologetic. Whatever happened on this account 500 years ago matters not; it is what has been happening during your tenure here in Soteriology.

you seem to think that I am the Church. What happened 500 years ago is very pertinent. It will remain pertinent until the end of time. The Gospel does not change, it was given once, and is being preserved by the Holy Spirit working within the Body of Christ as He promised. The Gospel is remaining a unified Gospel as the unity is between He and the Father.

I did not develop my faith as Calvin did and all protestants do. It is not MY Gospel, but Christ's Gospel. I can accept it and defend it but I am not resposible for it. It is a gift to mankind.

You will never hear one Orthodox Christian saying to another Orthodox Christian that the other does not know what he believes. This phrase is practically standard fare in every discussion between protestants. What you are simply claiming is a very personally developed faith that has no relevance to any other person.

Do you really think that if I stopped posting that the Orthodox faith is going to change and declare Calvinism Orthodox? No Orthodox single handedly can change that dictum. Its not like any protestant denomination where one is free to start a whole new church and then declare himself as a non-heretic. This is why you have such trouble with any protestant who is teaching false teachings respective of your own particular faith. Arminianism is as much heretical to Calvinism as you claim Mormonism to be. It is diametrically opposed to Calvinism on every single point. If you doubt that read the Canons of Dorht again.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Josiah said:
1. The Oriental Orthodox Church? The Eastern Orthodox Church? The Roman Catholic Church? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? WHICH church (because they all have different "tradition")


.


Yes


:doh:




Josiah said:
2. Which denomination was there in Thessalonika to know what dogmas Paul, Timothy and Silas taught that the Holy Spirit chose to not relate to us in Scripture?


.

there were no denominations


I agree. Thus, there's no reason to accept that the EOC somehow, mysteriously, "knows" the dogmas that Paul, Timothy and Silas taught in Thessalonika that the Holy Spirit chose to not convey in Scripture (if any). You reject any Calvinist denomination from know cuz it wasn't there, well - you've admitted, the EOC wasn't there either. Who was? Did they record these mystery dogmas? Can you document that?





Does not your scriptures state that All Truth was given to the Apostles

Can't think of a verse that says that....

Did you know that the Apostles are not the EOC? Or the RCC or LDS or WELS or St. Ignatius or St. Athanasius or Joseph Smith or you?




Do you actually believe what the scriptures say

Yes, I do. However, I don't just insert things into the text God didn't put there; was it Jeremiah that stated that God has a particular distain for those who say "God says!" when God said no such thing?

You don't seem to be aware that Scripture says NOTHING about EOC Tradition or the EOC denomination, it relates NO promises to your denomination, no authorizations, no exemptions - nothing. It says NOTHING about anyone or anything being an infallible/unaccountable follower or teacher. So far, you haven't spoken of anything that's what Scripture says, you've just been repeated what you say - as if that makes it true.





Josiah said:
3. Please copy and paste to this thread the entire, verbatum content of what Paul, Timothy and Silas taught that the Holy Spirit chose to not relate to us in Scripture.




Actually, I'm quite aware of the snippets that various denominations choose from the documents they choose by the authors they choose - and then appoint self as the sole "interpreter of such" and how they "interpret" those cherrypicked snippets to agree with self, according to self. But I'm not aware of "volumes" that have been written to convey specifically what Paul, Timothy and Silas told to the Thessalonians specifically as dogmas that the Holy Spirit chose not to relate to us in Scripture.



.


I think there are some 80 volumes to the whole set.

It took 80 volumes for those in Thessonika to relate the dogmas that Paul, Timothy and Silas taught to them but the Holy Spirit decided not to relate to us in Scripture? Really? Eighty volumes! THAT'S a lot of dogmas God decided not to convey to us in His Scripture!




Josiah said:
I only note that the Holy Spirit promised or authorized NOTHING concerning EOC Tradition or the EOC denomination.


Yes, He does keep His word, it's just that He never promised to keep yours. Or those of the EOC.



.


which Church did He promise it to if not His Own, and where is that Church, the Church He will not leave an orphan, or the Gospel that He will guard and preserve? Or does Christ make promises that He does not keep.


Yes, Christ keeps His promises.
He just doesn't necessary affirm your opinions.

Jesus never promises the EOC anything.

Jesus never said ANYTHING about EOC Tradition.

Jesus never said ANYTHING about EOC snippets that the EOC chooses from the EOC "fathers" that the EOC chooses as the EOC "understands" them.

Jesus never said ANYTHING about "successors" or secret dogmas.

Jesus never said ANYTHING about infallible following or learning.






Josiah said:
Yup.
NO mention of EOC Tradition.
NO mention of Paul teaching dogmas that the Holy Spirit would keep out of Scripture and instead tell a denomination centuries in the future.

would that denomionation be yours by chance?


I have no idea how your reply relates at all to what I posted and you quoted. No, I've made NO claims about my denomination or its tradition. All the claims, all the assumptions have been on your part. It's just you've offered NOTHING to substantiate any of it.






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Rightglory

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billybtennessee,

The RCC is not the only one who teaches the practice of indulgences. So does EO, according to their own websites, and others who are EO.

Give the reference. It is not the same for sure, nor was it practiced by the Church as a whole. It was not practiced by the Church Fathers as far as I know. there may have been one who mentioned it or spoke about it, but it never was a practice of the Church. Much like Arianism which covered almost 75% at one time and existed over 4 centuries. False teachings and practices by individual bishops, Patriarchs does not constitute the practice of the whole Church. The same could be said of Patriarch Lugar with the Calvinism issue. I'm sure there will be many protestants who will claim that the Church believed and practiced Calvinism because of Lugar.

You also deny historical facts, and there is no use in telling you again, of this, and other teachings that are taught of EO, which are not scriptural. The scripture should guide every teaching, and this is where we will disagree. It is why we have scripture. 2nd Tim. 3:15-17. Any tradition, should be guided by scripture, not the other way around.

not scriptural according to whom? Arius was a Christian, he used scripture to develop his view of the Trinity. So have many other men tried to change Christ's Gospel.

Scripture has NEVER been the sole authority. It is not why we have scripture. It is why we have the Body of Christ, with Christ as Head, and the Holy Spirit working within that Body to preserve His Gospel from being watered down by man and made null and void.

II Tim 3:15-17 does not even address the authority issue. It addresses the use of scripture, which it has been used as such, not as an ultimate authority set apart from the entire content and context. It has never been used to develop doctrines and what constitutes new revelation.

Tradition, small (t) should be guided by scripture and Tradition that was given once, Jude 3. Scripture is Tradition so it is impossible to contradict it. It was all given by the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles.
 
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Rightglory

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Behe's Boy,

You're wrong here though - just because different people interpret differently does not mean that scripture looses its authority. As stated earlier - I myself part ways with Calvin on many issues and as far as Wesley is concerned though I disagree with him on many issues I believe he was a Christian. Though we all have disagreements - on the essentials we agree.

scripture does not lose its authority because it is Christ who is the authority. But man has no authority over scripture to determine what it means, what the actual revelation that Christ and the Holy Spirit gave means.

Your parting ways is nothing more than you personally disagreeing with scripture as that other person interpreted it. Thus scripture has immediately lost the authority and man has taken over.

To say that you all agree with the essentials is meaningless. I don't believe there are any essentials. Protestants as a whole have mitigated any semblance of essentials to become a confusion of non essentials.

Between all protestant groups there are many variations on every doctrine known to Christianity, including all of the false ones prior to Protestantism in some form or another. Where is the authority of scripture? Where is that unifed Gospel that Christ prayed would remain, as He is with the Father?

As far as JWs go - they don't use scripture but have a purposely twisted translantion (NWT) to support their non-trinitarian views. They do not hold to the essentials of Christianty and are therefor not. There are many sects who interpret the Bible on essential issues that are wrong - those we part ways with.

Like predestination, total depravity, etc, non-Incarnational. Speak of the Trinity but none of your theology is based on the Trinity. Essentials like that? How about the Eucharist, baptism, Liturgy, Original Sin, even atonement.

I don't believe this - and I guarantee you a muslim would be offended by such a statement.
they recognize Christ as an historical figure, a great teacher but like the MOrmons, their teacher came later with a more advanced religion.

Luther was before Calvin - John Huss was before Luther - "Foxe's Book of Martyrs" documents believers who held to the authority of scripture over the traditions of man before the period of the reformation.

so what did they believe? Did they believe in predestination, total depravity, limited atonement etc. If scripture has authority should they not be the same?

For someone who puts a lot of faith in history - you sure don't seem to have yours right. Arminius didn't refute the five points at Dordt....
NO they refuted Calvins theology and the Calvinists came up with the five points. Anyway you word it the Arminians were accurate on those five points.

Scripture - its all in scripture - it wasn't developed by Calvin. Predestination is in scripture - as has been shown over and over again.

Yes, according to a particular individual. Unitarianims, Universalism, Arianism Nestorianism all are based on scripture as well.

It was developed by Calvin. No one prior to him believed a single point of Calvinism. Augustine is the ONLY one that wrote a piece about predestination and total depravity in his argument with Pelagius. It was never a stated doctrince of any Church prior to Calvin.

Scripture - its all in scripture - the doctrine of original sin can be found in Romans 3. It wasn't developed by anyone later.
only according to augustine and the RCC and Calvin made it a doctrine of faith.

So why is this forum so against any Universalist participating when it is also from scripture?
 
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AndOne

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Your parting ways is nothing more than you personally disagreeing with scripture as that other person interpreted it. Thus scripture has immediately lost the authority and man has taken over.
I disagree with any interpretation that contradicts the clear meaning of scripture - just like I disagree with the EOC's interpretation of scripture.

To say that you all agree with the essentials is meaningless. I don't believe there are any essentials. Protestants as a whole have mitigated any semblance of essentials to become a confusion of non essentials.
That may be what your church tells you - but I got news - it ain't true. You believe a lie.

Like predestination, total depravity, etc, non-Incarnational. Speak of the Trinity but none of your theology is based on the Trinity. Essentials like that? How about the Eucharist, baptism, Liturgy, Original Sin, even atonement.
All of my theology - including my belief in the trinity is baseD on SCRIPTURE. I believe them because they are in SCRIPTURE.


Yes, according to a particular individual. Unitarianims, Universalism, Arianism Nestorianism all are based on scripture as well.
Not true - based on traditions/man's teaching. Just like the EOC.

So why is this forum so against any Universalist participating when it is also from scripture?

It's not in scripture. That's probably why.
 
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Rightglory

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CaliforniaJosiah,

I agree. Thus, there's no reason to accept that the EOC somehow, mysteriously, "knows" the dogmas that Paul, Timothy and Silas taught in Thessalonika that the Holy Spirit chose to not convey in Scripture (if any). You reject any Calvinist denomination from know cuz it wasn't there, well - you've admitted, the EOC wasn't there either. Who was? Did they record these mystery dogmas? Can you document that?

Which Church canonized the Bible for you?

You don't seem to be aware that Scripture says NOTHING about EOC Tradition or the EOC denomination, it relates NO promises to your denomination, no authorizations, no exemptions - nothing. It says NOTHING about anyone or anything being an infallible/unaccountable follower or teacher. So far, you haven't spoken of anything that's what Scripture says, you've just been repeated what you say - as if that makes it true.

Ok, I'll play your game. Which tradition does scripture speak about? Who is infallible in scripture? So what Church does the scripture refer to? That Church in I Tim 3:15? Which Body is Christ refering to in scripture, Did Peter and the 3000 believers belong to that Body? Did Ignatius belong to that Body? what Church did he belong to? What Church was Christ refering to in Matt 16:18, What Church is Acts 2:47 where believers were being added? What church is being refered to in Acts 14:23, Which Church is mentioned in Col 1:24, I Tim 5:16, What about Heb 12:23, Rom 16:16, I Thess 2:14, which Church is being referenced in these instances?

Which Church Council met in Acts 15:6-11?

Does not your scriptures state that All Truth was given to the Apostles
Your response....

Can't think of a verse that says that....
it would be convenient to overlook such a HUGE notion.

only note that the Holy Spirit promised or authorized NOTHING concerning EOC Tradition or the EOC denomination.
which Church did He promise and authorize?

which Church did He promise it to if not His Own, and where is that Church, the Church He will not leave an orphan, or the Gospel that He will guard and preserve? Or does Christ make promises that He does not keep.
Your response....

Yes, Christ keeps His promises.
He just doesn't necessary affirm your opinions.
Jesus never promises the EOC anything.
Jesus never said ANYTHING about EOC Tradition.
Jesus never said ANYTHING about EOC snippets that the EOC chooses from the EOC "fathers" that the EOC chooses as the EOC "understands" them.
Jesus never said ANYTHING about "successors" or secret dogmas.
Jesus never said ANYTHING about infallible following or learning.

OK, so to whom are the promises given? And where is that Church?

have no idea how your reply relates at all to what I posted and you quoted. No, I've made NO claims about my denomination or its tradition. All the claims, all the assumptions have been on your part. It's just you've offered NOTHING to substantiate any of it.

OK, I'll agree with everything you stated. Those were all negative statements. Now give to me the postive anwsers to those statments. Those questions are above already stated. What does scripture tell you? Be specific.
 
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Rightglory

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Behe's Boy,

I disagree with any interpretation that contradicts the clear meaning of scripture - just like I disagree with the EOC's interpretation of scripture.

Which is your personal opinion. What you are failing to understand is the other person is saying the very same thing about your opinion or interpretation. You can have four or five differing opinions on baptism for example. Where is the authority of scripture?

To say that you all agree with the essentials is meaningless. I don't believe there are any essentials. Protestants as a whole have mitigated any semblance of essentials to become a confusion of non essentials.
Your response....

That may be what your church tells you - but I got news - it ain't true. You believe a lie.

My Church didn't tell me that, I came to that conclusion as a protestant, which is why I am Orthodox. Give me one essential, other than the use of sola scriptura and the two I gave in this post earlier, Original Sin and Anselm satisfaction theory of the atonement? Even that is different limited and unlimited.

All of my theology - including my belief in the trinity is baseD on SCRIPTURE. I believe them because they are in SCRIPTURE.

You believe in a word or concept. None of your theology is based on the Trinity. If you think it is, please explain? You realize that there are others, using scripture that disagree with even the historical definition of the Trinity.

Yes, according to a particular individual. Unitarianims, Universalism, Arianism Nestorianism all are based on scripture as well.

Your response....

Not true - based on traditions/man's teaching. Just like the EOC.

and calvin is not a man, what about Arminius, what about Wesley, or even you?

So why is this forum so against any Universalist participating when it is also from scripture?
Your response....

It's not in scripture. That's probably why.

but it is in scripture. Origen wrote a great defense of his concept of universal salvation all from scripture.

It is as much a part of scripture as Predestination is from scripture.
 
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AndOne

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Which is your personal opinion. What you are failing to understand is the other person is saying the very same thing about your opinion or interpretation. You can have four or five differing opinions on baptism for example. Where is the authority of scripture?
What you're failing to understand is that I am saying the very same thing about the opinions of the EOC. I don't care about opinions - I care what the plain meaning of the text of scripture says. plain and simple. Scripture is my authority.



You believe in a word or concept. None of your theology is based on the Trinity. If you think it is, please explain? You realize that there are others, using scripture that disagree with even the historical definition of the Trinity.

I believe what scripture teaches regarding the trinity.


Hey - why don't you start your own thread on this?
 
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Rightglory

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Behe's Boy,

Which is your personal opinion. What you are failing to understand is the other person is saying the very same thing about your opinion or interpretation. You can have four or five differing opinions on baptism for example. Where is the authority of scripture?

Your response...

What you're failing to understand is that I am saying the very same thing about the opinions of the EOC. I don't care about opinions - I care what the plain meaning of the text of scripture says. plain and simple. Scripture is my authority.

But I didn't know that the Holy Spirit had opinions. Or even that the Apostles gave their opinions.

But I understand, you care only about YOUR interpretation of scripture.
 
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AndOne

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Behe's Boy,



But I didn't know that the Holy Spirit had opinions. Or even that the Apostles gave their opinions.

But I understand, you care only about YOUR interpretation of scripture.

I care about the clear meaning of scripture. Not interpretations or opinions - what is written in black and white for all to see.

But hey - why don't you start your own thread on this stuff?
 
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"THE doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is stated in the Westminster Confession in the following words: “They whom God hath accepted In His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.”1 Or in other words we believe that those who once become true Christians cannot totally fall away and be lost, — that while they may fall into sin temporarily, they will eventually return and be saved.

This doctrine does not stand alone but is a necessary part of the Calvinistic system of theology. The doctrines of Election and Efficacious Grace logically imply the certain salvation of those who receive these blessings. If God has chosen men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit effectively applies to them the benefits of redemption, the inescapable conclusion is that these persons shall be saved. And, historically, this doctrine has been held by all Calvinists, and denied by practically all Arminians." - Loraine Boettner

"One of the greatest hindrances to a comfortable walk with God as a Christian is their fickle nature. Christians have a problem with their fallen emotions. Their emotions often overtake their good sense, and as a result of their sin, especially their besetting sin, the greatest question that continues to arise all through their Christian walk is “Am I really saved?” Instead of resting on the hope of God, they wonder, based on their works, whether they have been truly saved. As the Westminster Confession of Faith states, these good works “are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith.”[1] It is true, and a good thing, that professing Christians look at their works. Works are one of those litmus tests that demonstrate if the heart has truly been changed and regenerated. As 1 John 3:9 states quite emphatically, “Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.” At this point the Christian trembles because he knows he sins. So is he not born of God? The text itself is quite plain, but it is plain in the Greek syntax, tense and grammar, otherwise the translation is lost in English. He who is born of God does not continue to sin as habit. It is not that Christians do not sin, rather, they do not habitually sin, and plan out their sin and enjoy their sin as a lifestyle. That does not give them the right to say, “Well, I am going to sin, so I might as well sin big.” No. Shall we gone on sinning that grace may abound? Certainly not! Instead, they desire to be holy. But this dynamic of assurance, coupled with fallen emotions, makes Christians fickle. Oftentimes they are uneasy about their walk, and often doubt their salvation. What can a Christian do in order to gain a sense of assurance and stability in their salvation? The Calvinistic tradition has understood election as unconditional, regeneration as permanent, and the certitude of final perseverance as a genuine reality for the believer in Christ." - Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

"The doctrine of the saints final perseverance in grace to glory, being a doctrine so fully expressed in the sacred scriptures, so clearly wrote there as with a sun-beam, having so large a compass of proof; as scarce any other doctrine has; a doctrine so agreeable to the perfections of God, and the contrary so manifestly reflecting dishonor upon them, particularly the immutability of God, his wisdom, power, goodness, justice, truth, and faithfulness; a doctrine so well established upon his purposes and decrees, his counsel and covenant, and which so well accords with all his acts of grace towards, and upon his people; a doctrine so well calculated for their spiritual peace and comfort, and to promote holiness of life and conversation" - John Gill


Perseverance of the Saints

1. What God begins, he finishes

Psa 138:8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Isa 46:4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. - KJV
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. - ESV

Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

2. Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost

Joh 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Rom 8:28-31 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

3. God's preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith
1Co 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Rev 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

4. However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

1Co 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Gal 3:1-6 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Phi 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1Th 5:23-24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Heb 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Jud 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
 
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SeraphimsCherub

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"One of the greatest hindrances to a comfortable walk with God as a Christian is their fickle nature. Christians have a problem with their fallen emotions. Their emotions often overtake their good sense, and as a result of their sin, especially their besetting sin, the greatest question that continues to arise all through their Christian walk is “Am I really saved?” Instead of resting on the hope of God, they wonder, based on their works, whether they have been truly saved. As the Westminster Confession of Faith states, these good works “are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith.”[1] It is true, and a good thing, that professing Christians look at their works. Works are one of those litmus tests that demonstrate if the heart has truly been changed and regenerated. As 1 John 3:9 states quite emphatically, “Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.” At this point the Christian trembles because he knows he sins. So is he not born of God? The text itself is quite plain, but it is plain in the Greek syntax, tense and grammar, otherwise the translation is lost in English. He who is born of God does not continue to sin as habit. It is not that Christians do not sin, rather, they do not habitually sin, and plan out their sin and enjoy their sin as a lifestyle. That does not give them the right to say, “Well, I am going to sin, so I might as well sin big.” No. Shall we gone on sinning that grace may abound? Certainly not! Instead, they desire to be holy. But this dynamic of assurance, coupled with fallen emotions, makes Christians fickle. Oftentimes they are uneasy about their walk, and often doubt their salvation. What can a Christian do in order to gain a sense of assurance and stability in their salvation? The Calvinistic tradition has understood election as unconditional, regeneration as permanent, and the certitude of final perseverance as a genuine reality for the believer in Christ." - Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

Thank you my beloved brother for that Wealth of Information! Shalom From~ YaWeH~EloHiM-Through-YaWeH~YeshuaH~ImmanueL~Messiah~Be Unto Thee-By YaWeH~EloHiM~The Holy Spirit~THE SPIRIT OF THE FATHER~&~THE SPIRIT OF THE SON~THEY ARE ONE ELOHIM~(((YAWEH)))~!!!~(((AMEN)))
 
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SeraphimsCherub

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Apologetic Warrior,

Which is wholly a protestant interpretation of scripture by a group of men who were influenced entirely by one man, Calvin.

You will find no theology, no person, no Church, nothing in the history of Christianity that so believed what is stated, prior to Calvin.

Well a Christianity that doesn't SAVE, is worthless,and just one more dead vain "Religion" of men!!
 
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