The dangers of Calvinism belief - Eternal Security

[Terene]

Beloved brethren in Christ,

It has now come to the point that I need to share an important issue with all of you regarding the common faith and salvation we have in Jesus Christ our Savior - an issue that I have been wrestling for a long time and have come to a understanding that needs to be emphasized - that of the Calvinist belief of Eternal Security.

I have never fully embraced this doctrine, mainly because there are so many issues that contradict this doctrine both in the Word of God and in real life situations I see among true Christians.

This doctrine proposes that once a believer is truly born again, he/she can never lose salvation no matter what sins are committed in the walk of faith or how many times this believer falls into sin. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about this doctrine)

But yet, I see that this idea clearly contradicts the Word of God in MANY ways, and is even dangerous to a new believer in his/her spiritual life and salvation. In my discussion with a fellow brother on this, I pointed out the following:

I am though baffled and worried when you say that we cannot lose our salvation as true born again children of God, because the Word of God does not seem to condone such a belief. If there is indeed such a level of security that no matter what a child of God does, he/she cannot lose salvation, why are the apostles so dedicated in warning the early churches about issues like false gospels, false prophets and the likes? I believe that such warnings and reminders were given to people who have actually received the Holy Spirit and were born again children of God, not to those who were never truly born again or never truly saved.

Mark these warnings:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If salvation indeed cannot be lost, why is there a need to work it out with fear and trembling?
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But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

If salvation indeed cannot be lost, why does the apostle fear for the church being led astray?

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils...

If salvation cannot be lost, which means those truly born again and saved cannot lose their faith (because without faith in Christ no one can be saved), why does Paul write to Timothy that some will latter on depart from the faith? Surely Paul cannot be referring to those who never were saved, because anyone with faith is saved already. Also, Paul could not be referring to those who did not have faith, because if one did not have faith, how can one depart from it? So if Paul is indeed referring to those who once had faith (which means they once were saved by true faith), and latter these people departed from the faith, does it not tell us that salvation can be lost when one departs from or forsakes true faith in Christ?
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The brother in reply, say that in such situations when one departs from the faith, that one did not have true saving faith in the first place. While this can be true for some instances, it cannot be true for all who depart from the Christian faith, I believe in this strongly.

I have also been doing a bit of reading and I found this article especially instructional in its refute against the doctrine of eternal security:

Spiritual Death: The Righteous Can Die Spiritually

Adam was righteous and resided in the garden of Eden, a paradise garden only for the righteous. He was expelled from it after he sinned and died, as warned. Adam died spiritually the same day he sinned, yet lived physically many years afterwards to be 930 years old (Gen. 5:5). As God’s first statement about sin was issued to a righteous man concerning his own spiritual death through sin, the devil’s first lie was devised to make Eve dismiss this eternal truth, which led to her disobedience and spiritual death. Please note that Eve never sinned until she was deceived into thinking that sin would not bring about her own spiritual death. Furthermore, the doctrine of eternal security is identical to the devil’s first lie, that is, the righteous will not die spiritually through sin:

“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. (Gen 3:4)
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This same consequence of disobedience for the righteous is repeated later by the prophet Ezekiel:

Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. (Ezek 3:20)
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But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezek 18:24)
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If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)
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If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)
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If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. (Ezek 33:18)
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Clearly, a righteous person can die spiritually because of his sin, which again is the antithesis of the teaching of eternal security. New Testament warnings to the righteous about them dying through sin are repeated, especially by Paul and James. The familiarity between these and the Gen. 2:17 and Ezekiel passages is evident:

For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. (Rom 8:13)
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Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:16)
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Those Scriptures are written to the saints at Rome, who were righteous:

To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. (Rom. 1:7,8)
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By the way, if the reader would compare Rom. 8:13 to Gal. 5:19-21 and 6:8,9, where Paul wrote the same truth three different ways, it becomes unmistakable that he was referring to the spiritual death of the righteous (not physical death) for those who live according to the sinful nature because he compared you will die in Rom. 8:13 to not inherit the kingdom of God in Gal. 5:19-21 and reap destruction instead of reap eternal life in Gal. 6:8,9. Apparently Paul repeatedly warned Christians of this possibility, unlike our dark day which denies these same eternal truths. Especially focus on Gal. 5:21.

James describes the sinning process, which leads to the spiritual death of the righteous:

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)
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As already shown this sinning process to spiritual death dates back to the Garden of Eden, then to Ezekiel, then to Paul the grace teacher. James elaborated upon this eternal truth at the very end of his own epistle:

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover over a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20, NASB)
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Notice how straying from the truth (a name for Jesus in John 14:6) is to jeopardize the soul of the righteous person to (eternal) death. But if that same person is brought back where he was before he strayed, his soul will once again be safe (or saved) in the truth. Also shown here is the truth that a saved person can become a sinner again, by straying from the truth.

It can be seen clearly that the Word of God warned against those who sin that they will spiritually die in their sins unless they truly turn away from their sins and receive forgiveness, even if they were originally faithful and righteous in God's eyes. This is a fundamental truth from the Word since the OT until the NT, and has never changed, but now the doctrine of eternal security downplays on the fatal consequences of sins and gives all believers a false sense of security that does not exist!

The wages of sin is DEATH. This is mentioned in Romans, which means that sin has the same effect for OT saints and NT saints, and this ultimately proves that the whole Calvinist idea of eternal security is WHOLLY unbiblical and fatal!

I also hereby raise a REAL LIFE experience I heard from a fellow Christian sister who experienced great troubles within her Christian family:

http://www.christianforums.com/blogs/u268736-e14668/

This poor sister of ours faced so many suicides in her family, even that of her Christian mother! We all know that suicide is a sin that can never be repented of and thus will land its victims straight into hellfire! Does it mean that the Christian mother who died did not have true saving faith? She did, but she later fell from her faith and gave in to the devil's attacks and that's why she has now perished with no remedy! This is a real life example of how a child of God can be destroyed if she does not endure in her saving faith until the end!

Brother and sisters, it is now time for us to wake up and genuinely search the Word of God to determine whether the popular doctrines of today are indeed biblical or not, because the Body of Christ is at stack because of false doctrines and false teachers!

May our God bless you all and open your eyes to this!

 

[Terene]

Some articles refuting Eternal Security:

Eternal Security: Never Saved Argument
1 Cor. 5:1-5 does not support eternal security
Grace Changers Eternal Security Teachers Calvinists Heretics
SIN UNTO DEATH Sin That Leads To Death Sin Unto Spiritual Death
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS Calvinism Reformed Doctrines Of Grace
Eternal Security is a license to sin - Personal testimony
ETERNAL SECURITY IS ANOTHER GOSPEL
Obedience To God Obedience To The Lord Jesus Evangelical Outreach
Dan Corner Believer Conditional Security No Eternal Security Book
Practice Sin

 

[wayfaring man]

In a nutshell -

Confidence towards God which leads to holiness is good.

Confidence which does not, is not.

wm

 

[Terene]

In a nutshell -

Confidence towards God which leads to holiness is good.

Confidence which does not, is not.

wm

Amen brother, obedience to God leads to holiness, and this is what I knew the Holy Spirit has been teaching me from the very beginning!

Yet, I find that many teachers of the Word today downplay on this key doctrine and keep on stressing that we cannot stop sinning because of our flesh. But if we sincerely obey God, we already stop sinning!

May our God open our eyes to the spiritual dangers that is blinding so many of us from true and sincere obedience to the faith that leads us away from sin!

 

[wayfaring man]

Yes, it appears that many are making excuses which will not stand up to God's Judgment.

And it used to seem that they all needed to be "woken up"...but now it appears that many slumber according to God's doing, and in some cases, it is therefore best to leave them alone.

(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day. <-----> Romans 11:18

Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. <-----> Matthew 15:14

Better reception is generally found among the poor in spirit who are meek though afflicted.

The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them. <-----> Matthew 11:5

May The Lord Be Magnified !

wm

 

[Alive_Again]

Love is the fulfilling of the Law. If you're "dead" with Christ, you're not subject to the Law. You'll full the righteous requirements. If your flesh lives, your no longer in the light, but a lawbreaker, under law.

Until the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled, not one jot or tittle will pass away. Anyone who preaches otherwise will be called least in the kingdom.

If people do not abide in the doctrine of Christ, they do not have God. We cannot fellowship with those who preach otherwise, lest we become partakers of their evil deeds.

We have to choose to walk in love every day. If you don't love your brother, you don't have eternal life abiding in you. How many chances are their to not love your brother, particularly when they sin against you? You have to choose every hour to abide. It's not a one-time choice. You will always have to choose between your flesh and the spirit.

If you walk in the spirit, no condemnation/eternal life. If you walk in the flesh, corruption. The works of the flesh are manifest and they are not good. Take your time and temperature by judging your own fruits because we'll be judged by them.

If you walk in love and don't follow God's plan for your life, you won't have any works in Heaven to follow you. If you walk in the flesh, you won't go to Heaven. The wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. God seems to allow us to learn to walk in Him and make mistakes and sin. He never changes. If we're repentant, He always forgives. If we don't repent, no blood cleansing = defilement. No wedding garment.

Isn't it crystal clear in the Word that He only wants us to obey Him?

 

[Hismessenger]

I would have you look at Moses and David. Both committed sins against God but yet they are both saved. This is bourne out by Moses on the mount of transfiguration with Christ an David being the throne to which Christ has ascended.

The problem is that God said he would have mercy on whom he will and bring destruction upon whom He will. I believe that these two were chosen and couldn't lose their salvation for God knew their shortcomings before he chose them. See it isn't about our choice but rather his choosing. The word says that when He separated the sons of Adam, He separated them according to the number of the children of Israel. That means He has a definite number of whom he has chosen and who will not be chosen.

Our problem is that we have no idea who it is He has chosen or why. With that being said it should be by faith that we trust in the living God who set us in his creation for his purpose.

hismessenger

 

[billybtennessee]

I too have seen many 'practice' things that Paul instructed those who do such, will not inherit the kingdom of God or Christ. This is one of the dangers of that particular doctrine. I knew a deacon who was practicing adultery and drunkenness, and had no doubt that he was saved. Some do not seem to get the distinction between those who sin and repent of their sin, (such as David), and those who just keep right on practicing them, even if warned, using that doctrine.

On the other side of that, I have also saw those who believe in works instead of grace. These tend to hate others and become like the scribes and pharisees were. Those who have the Holy Spirit within are gonna be bearing fruit those abiding in Christ do. But they only do so because of being new creations in Jesus Christ.

One being conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, will bear the fruit that mirrors Christ, that is what the Holy Spirit does. The carnal man spoken of by Paul in Romans 7 is where these who live carnally will run to. They never seem to reach the 8th chapter, or Rom. 12:1,2. And they avoid the epistle of James, and 1st John, like the plague. They won't stay in those long at all, without jumping off to another verse somewhere. The new trend seems to be it was written to the Jews, and means different for us.

You are right, the 'isms', and the 'ist' can blind folks to certain scripture. Both sides will constantly run to their favorite, that supports their particular doctrines, if challenged by scripture somewhere. If scripture indeed is the 'canon' to measure by, we ought to just use all of it. If there was only one certain church and doctrine though, we all know where that leads to. There is a purpose for the foolishness we are so proud of, found in all the particular doctrines, evidently. God will humble us all.

 

[cygnusx1]

Eternal Security is true , not to be confused with simplistic and misleading OSAS dogma.

There are Biblical safeguards built into Eternal Security , if these safeguards are removed the truth will be distorted leading to these types of threads.

 

[Hammster]

Isn't it interesting that those who believe you can lose your salvation are themselves doing enough to merit salvation?

 

[JesusFreak78]

We sin because we live in sinful body (the flesh) and not because we want to sin.

Romans 7:14:21
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.


We know we are secure in Christ and can not lose our salvation from John 10:28-30 and 1 John 5:13


John 10:28-30

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one."


1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Terene]

Eternal Security is true , not to be confused with simplistic and misleading OSAS dogma.

There are Biblical safeguards built into Eternal Security , if these safeguards are removed the truth will be distorted leading to these types of threads.

Brother, what are the biblical safeguards you are referring to? God protects His children, but His protection is always conditional on their OBEDIENCE to Him. When Israel no longer obeyed God, God removed His protection and allowed Israel's enemies to destroy them - this has not changed even in the New Testament.

The doctrine of eternal security is dangerous, because it seems to say that even when we stop obeying God and live in sin (ie. rebellion against God), God will still protect us and give us eternal life, though we know fully how much Jesus His Son has to suffer just to take that one sin away from us to bring us into eternal life. God is not mocked just like the apostles said, those who sow sin (by living according to the flesh) will reap destruction, because the wages of sin is death (Romans). God's grace does not nullify the effect of sin on anyone, including those who are called to faith in Jesus Christ. But the doctrine of eternal security seems to emphasize otherwise, and downplay the real effect of sin even on a true child of God. This is indeed dangerous and fatal, and parallel's satan's deception when he lied and said to Eve she will not die by sinning against God.

If I have been wrong about this, do correct me and tell me what is the real doctrine of eternal security, and we'll examine the Scriptures together in the love of God and hold onto the truth.

May our God bless you and all the brethren!

 

[Terene]

We sin because we live in sinful body (the flesh) and not because we want to sin.

Romans 7:14:21
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Brother, please be patient and listen to me. Paul, in the above verses, is describing his state UNDER the law, not yet liberated by Christ. Mark what he said about this state:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

(Romans 7:24-25)

Paul acknowledged that his state above is in the body of DEATH! Which means if he does not come to Christ to be delivered from the body of death, he will PERISH in his sins!

All men are under the power of sin and death BEFORE coming to Christ, and indeed cannot stop sinning because they are in bondage. But Christ died so that sin and death will have NO power over us, and if indeed we are liberated by Christ, we do have power to overcome sin and death, which means we stop sinning and no longer die in our sins. Paul illustrated this clearly:

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Mark the words I underlined, if the Spirit of life in Christ makes us FREE from sin and death, how can we still be living in sin which leads to death?

We know we are secure in Christ and can not lose our salvation from John 10:28-30 and 1 John 5:13

John 10:28-30

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one."


1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Yes, this is indeed a promise from our blessed Lord, but so far we have not yet received it. Eternal life is a promise for all those who remain faithful to God UNTIL THE END, who continue to believe in Jesus UNTIL THE END, and who walk according to the Spirit UNTIL THE END. We will indeed be given eternal life at the first resurrection, but if we already fall away from faith by actively living in sin before we even reach the first resurrection, how can we expect ourselves to be saved and inherit eternal life? Mark what the apostles have said:

By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

(1 Corinthians 15:2)

If salvation cannot be lost, why did Paul say we can believe in VAIN UNLESS we hold firmly to the Word? And what did our blessed Lord Himself say:

But he that shall endure UNTO THE END, the same shall be saved.

Salvation is guaranteed and secured, ONLY for those who stand and endure in the faith UNTIL THE END, which is the second coming of Christ when the first resurrection occurs for those who are RIGHTEOUS. Because WE ARE WARNED CLEARLY:

Do you not know that the wicked will NOT inherit the kingdom of God?

(1 Corinthians 6:9)

And, "If it is HARD for the RIGHTEOUS to be saved, what will become of the UNGODLY and the SINNER?"

(1 Peter 4:18)

May our God open your eyes to the truth!

 

[heymikey80]

What's the role of "If we are faithless, He will remain faithful -- He cannot deny Himself."

 

[Hammster]

Interesting. We are only adopted children when we are obedient, yet when we are disobedient, we cease to be children. Does this sound more like an employer/employee relationship to anyone else?

 

[heymikey80]

Brother, please be patient and listen to me. Paul, in the above verses, is describing his state UNDER the law, not yet liberated by Christ.

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. Romans 7:24-8:2

Note the tenses of the italicized words and indeed all the verbs.

 

[heymikey80]

Interesting. We are only adopted children when we are obedient, yet when we are disobedient, we cease to be children. Does this sound more like an employer/employee relationship to anyone else?

Yep. Working for your wages takes ... well, work.

Again, it's often a misunderstanding of terms that's involved in these viewpoints. They've become shallow during the medieval period and actually in the modern period too, shallowed down to behavior and action and superficial appearance. Obedience from the heart is the clear result of change in heart, and that change is wrought by the Spirit of God.

It actually forms part of our knowledge that we know Christ: we do what He commands.

But that security had better be there. Otherwise I'm sure at some point I shall stop obeying -- certainly when I die, my body will not be obeying God's command to share the Gospel.

 

[swordmaster]

Eternal Security is true , not to be confused with simplistic and misleading OSAS dogma.

There are Biblical safeguards built into Eternal Security , if these safeguards are removed the truth will be distorted leading to these types of threads.

Yes, scripture does teach eternal security, but not the kind embraced by Calvinism. The eternal security that scripture teaches is that one is eternally secure in whatever spiritual state they are in from the moment of the death of their physical body. In other words, if one is saved at the moment of his death, he will forever remain saved. If one is not saved at the moment of his death, then he will forever remain unsaved. That is scriptural eternal security, until our deaths (the physical body) we do not have eternal security, and you will not find this anywhere taught in scripture. Those few passages that are used to promulgate this brand of eternal security are taken out of context and interpreted outside of covenant thinking.

Eternal life is only found in Christ, only in the covenant. If one ceases to abide in Christ (and thereby, the covenant), then they cease to have eternal life.

 

[swordmaster]

Isn't it interesting that those who believe you can lose your salvation are themselves doing enough to merit salvation?

You can't lose your salvation...you can only set it down and walk away from it because you want the pleasures of sin more than one wants God.

There is no losing, only walking away from...and by salvation I mean eternal life, since you consistently keep calling salvation as eternal life, even though it isn't the same thing.

 

[swordmaster]

We know we are secure in Christ and can not lose our salvation from John 10:28-30 and 1 John 5:13

John 10:28-30

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one."

He gives them life, and because of this they will never perish (why? because when we take the whole counsel of God's Word together, those who are in Christ have eternal life, and they will keep that life as long as they remain in Him, this is what he is saying). As long as we remain abiding in Christ we will not perish, but if we leave Him we are on our own. He continues to say that no man can snatch them out of His hand...true...no one but me can take myself out of His hand. I put myself in His hand, and only I can take myself out of His hand. If you interpret this to mean that I cannot leave Him, then you preach something that goes against God's nature and character, for He will NOT hold you against your will. Nor will he MAKE you WANT to remain in His hand...that defeats the whole purpose for Him creating you in the first place.

You cannot cherry-pick one passage on eternal life without taking all others (over 300) into account. If I did as you just did, then I would conclude that not even faith is needed for eternal life, for Jesus gives it to whoever He wants to regardless of anything...we both know that isn't true.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Once again, if we take this passage alone, as you have, without the others, giving us a totality on the subject matter, then we would be forced to believe that it only takes belief in Jesus to bring eternal life...and this would be incorrect. Belief in Christ is ONLY the first prerequisite, then comes faith (belief with trust added to it), then comes actions of obedience to that faith.

If you believe that eating poison will kill you, and you don't particularly want to die today, then you will act on that belief and not eat poison. On the other hand, you believe that you can get into your car and drive from point A to point B...so you practice that belief everyday of your life.

Eternal life is mediated through the covenant that Christ inaugurated in His blood...you either participate in that covenant, or you don't. If you do, then you have eternal life...if, for some reason you choose to cease participating in the covenant, then you also cease to have eternal life. This is what is meant by remaining in Christ...covenant (legal) language for remaining in the covenant and reaping the promises and blessings thereof.

Blessings!