CaliforniaJosiah,
Yes - it does seem that, rarely, "tradition" is spoken of in the New Testament, and occasionally, in a positive way. But we are never told what the content of which was, and (a point Orthodox, Catholics and Mormons seem entirely unaware of), there is NO mention (positive or negative) of Orthodox or Catholic or Mormon Tradition. As apostolic or good or authoritative or normative or..... anything at all.
More positive than negative. The Church has told us what the content was in that Oral Tradition. It seems only you are unaware of the volumes that have been written, recorded about what the early Church believed, how they believed and practiced the Christianity as given to the Apostles.
Your assumption must be that the Apostles did not ever teach anything, that no one was available that believed anything, so nothing was ever recorded giving us the details that are not in scripture. You also assume that they Holy Spirit cannot keep His word, that He gave All Truth and would preserve that Truth within His Church, the Body of Christ.
ONe would also need to assume that you have never read Church History. How could you miss such obvious evidence.
If one actually rationalizes it away one can deny it and then lift up any other kind of view that comes along. But unfortunate for your view, there is 1500 years of history, consistant, unchanging history regarding that Tradition that was given from which the Scriptures were taken.
It seems quite ironic to me that you deny everything, including Tradition, that actually gave you the scriptures in the first place. A Church you deny existed. I would assume then that the scriptures could just as well be from Plato or some other historical figure and from a pagen cult. Doesn't sound as if you believe in anything that could be called Christian. You even deny the work and power of the Holy Spirit. What else can one draw from your comments.
If Paul spoke of it, it does exist and would have been preserved by the Holy Spirit since it is his Gospel.
Your response...
Entirely baseless.
No one knows what "it" was.
There NO promise that everything mentioned will be preserved
There's NO mention that such was Paul's "gospel."
Everything in your sentence is entirely moot and unfounded.
Since you think scripture is authoritative, take a look at II Thess 2:15, Then to: I Tim 1:3-4, I Tim 4:13-16, I Tim 6:20, II Tim 1:6, II Tim 1:13-14, II Tim 2:1-2, II Tim 3:10,
Then the giving of All Truth, John 16:13-15, Presering the Body which was entrusted the Gospel Matt 16:18. Then the unity of the Church, Eph 2:19-21,
We have 2000 years of consistantly teaching, preaching, believing, practicing the very same faith.
Of course it would be fitting if it was actually Paul's gospel, then you would have reason to accept Calvinism, I would imagine. One man cannot be accepted as having any truth, must go to scripture so that each can develop their own truth. It is moot and unfounded if one believes Calvin, but if one wants the Gospel of Christ it is in scripture. It is after all, plain and simple to understand.
Can you prove that the EOC is not that Tradition?
Your response...
1. I don't have to, you must prove that it is. I'm NOT saying that the infallibility and supremacy of the Roman Bishop was taught by all 13-14 Apostles in a dogma the Holy Spirit chose not to include in Scripture because I'm not saying that it was. YOU are the one saying what the EOC alone says and does and teaches was taught by the 13-14 Apostles and has ever since. What you've not done (or even attempted to do) is substantiate that, you just keep repeating it as if something said is ergo dogmatic fact.
Why not, you made the assertion that it does not exist. I'm assuming now that it does not, so what does exist? What existed before Calvin? Can you find any reformed theology in the 1500 years before Calvin?
Do you believe Christianity existed before Calvin? If so, what did it believe? Is there any record of Christianity?
But I'm not asking for Roman Catholic tradition. I asking about the Tradition that the Holy Spirit gave to the Apostles. YOu have not read about the Councils, regarding the Trinity, the Incarnation, have you not known that the Church has always been Liturgical, you can read those Liturgies because it teaches the heart of Christianity. You have never read the Didache explaining the meaning, mode and form of baptism or Eucharist?
Have you deprived yourself of all historical record of Christianity? Instead of making these assertions you aught to do a little study of historical Christianity. Maybe study the history of the Church in Jerusalem, Church of the Holy Sepulchre. It has been there since Pentacost and only three structures during that time and still teaching the very same thing as the Apostles. I believe you can go on the internet and in each communion find the continuous list of all bishops of that communion, for Jeruselem it would start at Pentacost and James was the first bishop there. Scripture even lists him. Peter also founded the Church at Antioch. Still in existance today with the same Gospel.
Read some of the very early Church Fathers, such as Iraneous, Justin the Martyr, St Ignatius, Read all the homilies of St Chrysostum on all of the NT practically.
I can list all the sources every time I make a comment, but would you actually read them all? It is much better to be a Berean and check for yourself what the Apostles taught, what was recorded from the early Church to the present and has been consistantly the same for 2000 years. There are some good web sites that give a lot of sources.
Impossible for you (or any one else) to do since no one knows what "Tradition" was - it is a phantom. But have a go at it. Document the verbatim content of EXACTLY any dogmas that Paul, Timothy and Silas told to the Thessalonians that the Holy Spirit caused to not be recorded anywhere in His Scripture. Once you document the verbatim content of that, we can check the current teachings/practices of the EOC and see if they are in exact conformity.
The EOC is that Church, the Church that Christ founded. If you really doubt that just goggle the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Find the list of all the Bishops from James to the present day. Then tell me that the Church did not exist at Pentacost. Some of the dogmas would be the Trinity, INcarnation, the use of the Liturgy, the meaning and use of the Eucharist, of baptism, confession, definition of the Church, for starters.
You won't find eternal security however. You will not find predestination either, or total depravity of man. It takes 1500 years for these to show up in Calvinism.
Of course the largest denial you have made is that the Holy Spirit is incapable of not just giving the Gospel to the Apostles, but then cannot preserve that Gospel, nor His Church. I would wonder why you even believe in the scriptures. They are all the result of that Tradition that was given.
