Schroeder

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Except, it is commanded; in our Lord's own words "do this" or if you are KJV "this do".

And... It was not the Passover Seder, there is no mention of lamb or bitter herbs in Scripture.
he was speaking to those in the room not a general audience. when he said do this they did it right then and there. he did not say do this and keep doing it and make this a continual rite to remind them of something i will do in the future. they still did not know he would give is life for them at this point. the scripture didnt say either way but it called it the passover meal i believe. they were not asked to join him for some new meal. you all tend to add to scripture what is not there.
 
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seashale76

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he was speaking to those in the room not a general audience. when he said do this they did it right then and there. he did not say do this and keep doing it and make this a continual rite to remind them of something i will do in the future. they still did not know he would give is life for them at this point. the scripture didnt say either way but it called it the passover meal i believe. they were not asked to join him for some new meal. you all tend to add to scripture what is not there.

I'm sorry- but you're incorrect. Don't ignore other scriptures. Jesus even lost disciples over his teachings. He was quite literal- and when they complained- he even reiterated his message and expounded upon it. In other scriptures- it is made clear that communion is something that we are expected to partake of on a regular basis.

John 6:32-66
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

1 Corinthians 11:23-32
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood[d] of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[e] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[f] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

1 Corinthians 10:16
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
 
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Tangible

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My old Baptist self actually stopped considered these same verses in context and thought, "Yeah, how could I have been so wrong all those years." If you are able to set aside the theology you have always taken for granted for a second, the message of these passages is inescapable and undeniable.

The problem with sacramentarians is well documented on the Evangelical site gotquestions.org where each and every response to questions about Holy Communion and Holy Baptism begin with a disclaimer like, "These verses can't actually mean what they say, so what do they really mean?"
 
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katherine2001

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My old Baptist self actually stopped considered these same verses in context and thought, "Yeah, how could I have been so wrong all those years." If you are able to set aside the theology you have always taken for granted for a second, the message of these passages is inescapable and undeniable.

The problem with sacramentarians is well documented on the Evangelical site gotquestions.org where each and every response to questions about Holy Communion and Holy Baptism begin with a disclaimer like, "These verses can't actually mean what they say, so what do they really mean?"

:thumbsup:! I quit attending the Baptist church after I actually heard the words of the passage from 1 Cor 11 prior to communion for what they actually say without putting them through the "He didn't mean that literally" filter I'd been taught to put that passage through (along with the last passage in John 6. It is kind of funny that Scriptures are to be taken literally until you can't accept what it says when taken literally. God is way beyond our puny human mind to understand. When we will only accept as true what we can understand, we put God into a box.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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My old Baptist self actually stopped considered these same verses in context and thought, "Yeah, how could I have been so wrong all those years." If you are able to set aside the theology you have always taken for granted for a second, the message of these passages is inescapable and undeniable.

The problem with sacramentarians is well documented on the Evangelical site gotquestions.org where each and every response to questions about Holy Communion and Holy Baptism begin with a disclaimer like, "These verses can't actually mean what they say, so what do they really mean?"

:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:
 
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Schroeder

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I'm sorry- but you're incorrect. Don't ignore other scriptures. Jesus even lost disciples over his teachings. He was quite literal- and when they complained- he even reiterated his message and expounded upon it. In other scriptures- it is made clear that communion is something that we are expected to partake of on a regular basis.

John 6:32-66
32 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’[e] Therefore everyone who has heard and learned[f] from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[g] has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed,[h] and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
verse 63 says he spoke figuratively about eating of his flesh. he was speaking of communion of the Spirit. 1 cor. 12:13 we were all given the one spirit to drink. they left him as disciples because they took it LITERALLY.

1 Corinthians 11:23-32
23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken[c] for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood[d] of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[e] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s[f] body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

1 Corinthians 10:16
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
well in 1 cor 11 does any of the problems occure when its done incorrectly. only if he is speaking figuratively as it relates to how you live in christ. And again where is the COMMAND part in all the passages. there is not one place that share too us the correct way in doing it. if it was so important to do why would this simple thing of telling us in great detail how it should be done. every ritual in the old covenant was very detailed. why the sudden ho hum dealing of it. they did it they came together and ate together and remembered the lord and what he did. it never states it was a rite to be done in some sort of certain way. thats why it is done in soo many different ways. AND YOU CANNOT DENY THAT.
 
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graceandpeace

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The same Churches that forbid alcohol, also deny the real presence btw... are the two connected?:confused::confused:

To jump in here, Methodists are sacramental & use grape juice. Now Baptists & some other non-denominationalists & such believe in ordinance theology - but not all who use grape juice consider it to be only a symbol.
 
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MKJ

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To jump in here, Methodists are sacramental & use grape juice. Now Baptists & some other non-denominationalists & such believe in ordinance theology - but not all who use grape juice consider it to be only a symbol.

Do the Methodists use grape juice exclusively though?
 
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narnia59

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Except, it is commanded; in our Lord's own words "do this" or if you are KJV "this do".

And... It was not the Passover Seder, there is no mention of lamb or bitter herbs in Scripture.

There's no mention of wine in Scripture either.

Luke's Gospel is clear that it's the Passover they are preparing.

Luke 22: 7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover." 9 "Where do you want us to prepare for it?" they asked. 10 He replied, "As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, 11 and say to the owner of the house, 'The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 12 He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there." 13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. 14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." 17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

Do you really think they had a supper with only bread and some identified drink from a cup? Just because that's all that's mentioned in Scripture, it's odd to claim that's the whole supper. Aside from that, Luke tells us 4 times in about 7 sentences that the meal they are eating is the Passover.

As for the question posed in the OP, Scripture itself never refers to the contents of the cup. It's only because we know it's the Passover meal that's being consumed can we be certain it is indeed wine.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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There's no mention of wine in Scripture either.

Luke's Gospel is clear that it's the Passover they are preparing.

Luke 22: 7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. 8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover." 9 "Where do you want us to prepare for it?" they asked. 10 He replied, "As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters, 11 and say to the owner of the house, 'The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?' 12 He will show you a large upper room, all furnished. Make preparations there." 13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover. 14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15 And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God." 17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

Do you really think they had a supper with only bread and some identified drink from a cup? Just because that's all that's mentioned in Scripture, it's odd to claim that's the whole supper. Aside from that, Luke tells us 4 times in about 7 sentences that the meal they are eating is the Passover.

As for the question posed in the OP, Scripture itself never refers to the contents of the cup. It's only because we know it's the Passover meal that's being consumed can we be certain it is indeed wine.

You are correct. Likewise, the harvest being long past, fresh grape juice would be hard come by.:)
 
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The reason leaven was not used at Passover, because basically the Israelites were to make a quick, flatbread, whereas leavened bread would take the better part of a day to make. It has nothing to do with yeast being a symbol of "evil".
 
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There can be no doubt that an alcoholic wine was used at the last supper. Grapes are harvested in the fall, and fermentation begins right away. Passover is in the spring. There would have been no grapejuice in the springtime.
 
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it doesnt matter its not a commanded sacrament. the passover meal was just that. Christ showing that he was indeed the sacrifice needed shown in the passover. he would shortly fulfill this reminder. it is no longer reguired to do since Christ fulfilled it. we remember christ in how we live not in simple sacraments that should be to remind us that we are now the ambassadors to Christ. the Spirit of Christ is in us. hebrew 9:10. Our sacrament is to LIVE through the SPirit. But good luck your get a ton of different answers because there is no scripture to back up most of what they have come up with regarding communion. christ did not institute a new rite called communion. they speak of dooing what Jesus did. well he celebrated the PASSOVER MEAL so why dont they just do that. I told you why which is why they change it and make things up.

On Nisan 10 a Passover Lamb is chosen (Ex 12).

It is inspected for any blemish until Nisan 14. When the actual sacrifice is made (Lev 23:5)

The Passover meal is eaten on Nisan 15. Jesus the Lamb entered the city on Nisan 10 & was killed on Nisan 14.

My point? He didn't eat the Passover (Seder) meal. Whereby we call it The Lords Supper.

All the things associated with Passover (Seder) meal were to remember the exit from Egypt.

The meal Jesus instituted with His Chosen (Luke 22:19, Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24) was to remember HIM until His promised return (John 14:3).
 
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Open Heart

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There's no mention of wine in Scripture either.

Luke's Gospel is clear that it's the Passover they are preparing.
The four cups at Passover are wine. They are kosher wine, which has less alcoholic content than wines today, but they are certainly wines and not grapejuice.
 
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Panevino

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Can anyone prove from scripture that we should use alcohol/wine for communion. It would be the same as using bread with yeast. The yeast causes corruption, and the Passover supper was unleavened bread without yeast. I am under no law, but under grace; so the question is for discussion.
Genesis 14:18

Abram and Melchizedek

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.

Hebrews 6:20

where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.
 
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Open Heart

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Can anyone prove from scripture that we should use alcohol/wine for communion. It would be the same as using bread with yeast. The yeast causes corruption, and the Passover supper was unleavened bread without yeast. I am under no law, but under grace; so the question is for discussion.
Wine is always used at a Seder Meal -- four cups of it. Jesus' last supper, where he instituted communion, was during a Seder meal.
 
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