The Cruel Myth of the ‘Gateway Job’

[dies-l]

Just like you're supposed to learn proper English in school.

EDIT: For employers schooling before college does not show that you're responsible. It just shows that your parents are responsible.

And, just to beat the dead horse: You're absolutely right, and I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion.

 

[sea oat]

That is one of the best blog entries I've read in a while.

 

[cow451]

That is one of the best blog entries I've read in a while.

Thanks

 

[iluvatar5150]

That's a fair point. But, if you are paying $2500+/month in rent for a modest apartment, perhaps it's time to move. On a $30k+ salary, that is doable for most people.

Even if your rent is 1/3 of that, $30k is just squeaking by for a single person.

 

[super animator]

Just like you're supposed to learn proper English in school.

That the only thing that I learn about English is that it is a bad language, as the "you're" and "your" pronounce exactly the same, which creates unnecessarily confusion because of it.

If you going to troll me by nitpicking my post by pointing out grammar errors rather than converse with me, than I will add you to my ignore list and that will be the end of it.

 

[dies-l]

Even if your rent is 1/3 of that, $30k is just squeaking by for a single person.

With no debt and a rent payment of 833/mo, a single person making $30k might not be living a wealthy lifestyle by American standards. But, it is still fairly easy to live a pretty comfortable lifestyle on that income.

 

[iluvatar5150]

With no debt and a rent payment of 833/mo, a single person making $30k might not be living a wealthy lifestyle by American standards. But, it is still fairly easy to live a pretty comfortable lifestyle on that income.

No, it isn't - at least not in a bigger city. I make right about that amount and I drive a small car about 25 miles each way to work. Here's what my bills look like:

Take-home pay: ~$1850/mo

Rent & utilities: $935/mo
Health insurance: $220/mo
Gas: ~$150/mo
Car insurance: $100/mo
Car maintenance and/or payment: $180/mo
Food: $150/mo

That's $1735/mo before I buy clothes or do anything other than watch television.

That's why the fast food workers in NYC were trying to get their pay up to $15/hr - because any less than that and you can't physically survive in a city.

 

[dies-l]

No, it isn't - at least not in a bigger city. I make right about that amount and I drive a small car about 25 miles each way to work. Here's what my bills look like:

Take-home pay: ~$1850/mo

Rent & utilities: $935/mo
Health insurance: $220/mo
Gas: ~$150/mo
Car insurance: $100/mo
Car maintenance and/or payment: $180/mo
Food: $150/mo

That's $1735/mo before I buy clothes or do anything other than watch television.

That's why the fast food workers in NYC were trying to get their pay up to $15/hr - because any less than that and you can't physically survive in a city.

Okay, so let's look at that for a moment.

You suggest $935/mo. for rent. Is that a portion of shared rent among several roommates? Or, is that the rent to live by oneself? If the former, how many roommates to a bedroom? If the latter, then being able to live by oneself if one chooses is a comfort and a luxury, not to be taken for granted.

Health Insurance of $220: typically that is a cost covered by an employer. But, in any event that sounds like a middle of the road kind of plan for one person or a person who has some preexisting condition or health condition that causes an increase in rates. My wife and I pay about that for both of us, right now. Having lived most of my life without health insurance (until recently, I only ever had it when I had those awful "stepping stone" jobs), I tend to see it as somewhat of a comfort/luxury more than a necessity, but I understand why some people believe otherwise.

Gas, car, and car insurance of $330/mo.: You mentioned the plight of people who live in large cities. One of the perks of living in a large city is public transit, which can be utilized for a lot less ($112/mo in NYC for example). Choosing to have one's own vehicle, under these circumstances, while understandable, is a comfort, not a necessity.

Food $150/mo.: That is an admirable food budget; can't argue with that one.

So, let's look at the numbers again, taking out the comforts:
Rent (sharing a modest apartment with 1 or 2 roommates in most of the U.S.): $500
Healthcare: $220
Transportation: $112 (for a public transit pass for city dwellers; for others, count on rent going down.
Food: $150/month

Total = $982/month, leaving, in your scenario, ~$868 for clothing, other expenses, and luxuries and comforts.

My point is not that any of these luxuries are bad or excessive. But, my comment was that a person can live in reasonable comfort with $30,000 per year, and your examples kinda prove my point.

 

[Ken-1122]

The Cruel Myth of the ‘Gateway Job’

For conservatives, one of the central arguments against a minimum income or even a minimum wage is the notion that employment is a value in and of itself. Taking a low-paying job, no matter how menial or “dead-end” is supposed to be an exercise in character that builds self-worth and places a person on the ladder toward upward mobility. Therefore, anything that prevents someone from working is contributing to sloth and moral decay.

Perhaps it was true once. There really was a time in America when an unskilled, menial job could be a gateway to a rewarding career. One of the reasons CEO’s now earn 100’s of times more than their entry-level employees is that menial jobs have become a gateway to nowhere. In a knowledge economy, the on-ramp to post-middle class affluence is located in a place fewer and fewer people can reach.

Research is starting to demonstrate the nature of the problem. People who take low-wage, menial labor in service industries or fast food at any point in their careers tend to have depressed incomes throughout their lifetimes. If you ever work at Wendy’s, you have roughly a 5% chance of ever earning $70,000 a year. Working at Ford, by contrast, suggests a 50% chance of eventually earning a median income. Lousy jobs are a gateway to lousy jobs.
​

My first job was a minium wage job at McDonalds. I never thought of it as a "gateway" job, I just saw it as a job and when I had the opportunity for something better I took it, and each job I took I used the experience from the previous jobs to get something better.

When I worked at McDonalds, not only did I learn how to make burgers, but I also learned their system of inventory (amongst other things) When I applied for other jobs, I took the skills I learned at McDonalds and was eventually able to get a job at a warehouse due to the system of inventory skills I learned at McDonalds. At the warehouse not only did I perfect stocking shelves, but I also became certified on forklifts and various other equipment as well as other skills. I never thought of the warehouse as a gateway job but when I applied for something else I took all the skills I learned at McDonalds and the Warehouse and was able to get something better. eventually I was able to get a good union job but I would not have been able to get it if I didn't have skills in the lower jobs I had first; starting with McDonalds.

I believe gateway jobs do work for some; it works for those who make it work for them.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

No, it isn't - at least not in a bigger city. I make right about that amount and I drive a small car about 25 miles each way to work. Here's what my bills look like:

Take-home pay: ~$1850/mo

Rent & utilities: $935/mo
Health insurance: $220/mo
Gas: ~$150/mo
Car insurance: $100/mo
Car maintenance and/or payment: $180/mo
Food: $150/mo

That's $1735/mo before I buy clothes or do anything other than watch television.

That's why the fast food workers in NYC were trying to get their pay up to $15/hr - because any less than that and you can't physically survive in a city.

That might depend upon where you live. Where I live a typical 1 bedroom apartment in a decent neighborhood is going to cost you approx $600-$650 per month. If you are paying anywhere close to $900 you are living in the lap of luxury.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Okay, so let's look at that for a moment.

You suggest $935/mo. for rent. Is that a portion of shared rent among several roommates? Or, is that the rent to live by oneself? If the former, how many roommates to a bedroom? If the latter, then being able to live by oneself if one chooses is a comfort and a luxury, not to be taken for granted.

I rent a room in someone else's house. And mind you, that includes all utilities including my cell phone (which is only about $25/mo).

Health Insurance of $220: typically that is a cost covered by an employer.

Yeah, but not for me.

But, in any event that sounds like a middle of the road kind of plan for one person or a person who has some preexisting condition or health condition that causes an increase in rates. My wife and I pay about that for both of us, right now. Having lived most of my life without health insurance (until recently, I only ever had it when I had those awful "stepping stone" jobs), I tend to see it as somewhat of a comfort/luxury more than a necessity, but I understand why some people believe otherwise.

I've had this plan for a couple years and once I get my new Obamacare Bronze plan, my premiums will be pretty close to the same (+- a few dollars).

Gas, car, and car insurance of $330/mo.: You mentioned the plight of people who live in large cities. One of the perks of living in a large city is public transit, which can be utilized for a lot less ($112/mo in NYC for example). Choosing to have one's own vehicle, under these circumstances, while understandable, is a comfort, not a necessity.

Yeah, well, I live in the burbs and work in one of the towns about halfway between me and the big city. Public transportation for me would require walking 4 miles along a highway and sitting on a train for about 2 hours - each way.

My office is pretty close to public transportation, but my house isn't. I've looked into moving closer into the city so I could ditch the car, but with the rents being so much higher there, this is still cheaper (or at least it's comparable), and it better accommodates the freelance work I do.

So, let's look at the numbers again, taking out the comforts:
Rent (sharing a modest apartment with 1 or 2 roommates in most of the U.S.): $500
Healthcare: $220
Transportation: $112 (for a public transit pass for city dwellers; for others, count on rent going down.
Food: $150/month

Total = $982/month, leaving, in your scenario, ~$868 for clothing, other expenses, and luxuries and comforts.

My point is not that any of these luxuries are bad or excessive. But, my comment was that a person can live in reasonable comfort with $30,000 per year, and your examples kinda prove my point.

I didn't say that you couldn't do it anywhere - I said that in a big city (or the surrounding area) it's nearly impossible.

Also, you didn't include utilities and I think you underestimate what rent costs these days. Almost everyone I know has roommates, many don't have cars, and no one pays $500/mo.

That might depend upon where you live. Where I live a typical 1 bedroom apartment in a decent neighborhood is going to cost you approx $600-$650 per month. If you are paying anywhere close to $900 you are living in the lap of luxury.

Of course it depends on where you are; that was my point. I just checked craigslist and around here, a 1br that's close to the subway is going to run you at least $1300/mo.

 

[dies-l]

I rent a room in someone else's house. And mind you, that includes all utilities including my cell phone (which is only about $25/mo).



Yeah, but not for me.



I've had this plan for a couple years and once I get my new Obamacare Bronze plan, my premiums will be pretty close to the same (+- a few dollars).



Yeah, well, I live in the burbs and work in one of the towns about halfway between me and the big city. Public transportation for me would require walking 4 miles along a highway and sitting on a train for about 2 hours - each way.

My office is pretty close to public transportation, but my house isn't. I've looked into moving closer into the city so I could ditch the car, but with the rents being so much higher there, this is still cheaper (or at least it's comparable), and it better accommodates the freelance work I do.



I didn't say that you couldn't do it anywhere - I said that in a big city (or the surrounding area) it's nearly impossible.

Also, you didn't include utilities and I think you underestimate what rent costs these days. Almost everyone I know has roommates, many don't have cars, and no one pays $500/mo.



Of course it depends on where you are; that was my point. I just checked craigslist and around here, a 1br that's close to the subway is going to run you at least $1300/mo.

You make some valid points. Based on what you've said, I'll step back a little from what I said, and say that for many Americans, $30,000/year is a enough for a single person to live pretty comfortably. I'll grant that there are exceptional places, like greater NYC and Southern California. And, I suppose that wages in these areas should reflect the higher than normal cost of living (and it's my understanding that they often do).

But, the claim of this thread is that one cannot work themselves to a position of decent earnings from most low wage entry level jobs. And, I still disagree with that. My experience in the retail sector is that anyone who is willing to work hard and has basic intelligence and ability levels can become a manager in most retail stores. The median salary for such a position is about $50,000, 10th %ile is about $38,000, 90th %ile is about $79,000. Source

This suggests to me that it is possible to get to a decent level of earnings from a "stepping stone" type job.

I look at it this way. In 2004, when I left my retail management position to attend law school, my annual earnings were close to double what they were in 2013, as a self-employed lawyer with 5 years of experience in a rural community. My current position gives me a lot more satisfaction and personal fulfillment, and I suppose I have more future earning potential. But, looking at the present in dollars and cents terms, I paid roughly $100K for the opportunity to make half as much money. So, if we're going to look at the issue from a strictly monetary viewpoint, I would have been better off to stick to my "lowly" retail career.

The point is that the idea of the "gateway job" is not a myth; it is a very practical reality for many many people. But, I will grant that the type of career that a person can glean from this type of job is not the most emotionally or spiritually fulfilling work in the world. But, as I have heard argued, the idea of being "fulfilled" or enjoying your work, is a very first world notion.