The Crucifixion Not Friday

[Saber Truth Tiger]

The point is the legal way to observe the Sabbath originated in Egypt and the command Nissan 16. This way is repeated in the Ten Commandments.

The way to observe the Sabbath did not originate in Egypt. The Sabbath was revealed to the children of Israel in Exodus 16:

Exodus 16
21 Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away. 22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers[b] for each person—and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses. 23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded: ‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

24 So they saved it until morning, as Moses commanded, and it did not stink or get maggots in it. 25 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. 26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”

27 Nevertheless, some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather it, but they found none. 28 Then the Lord said to Moses, “How long will you[c] refuse to keep my commands and my instructions? 29 Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

The Days of Unleavened Bread were revealed to Israel by Moses, through God's prompting,

Exodus 12

1 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, 2 “This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year. 3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb[a] for his family, one for each household. 4 If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. 5 The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. 6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the members of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or boiled in water, but roast it over a fire—with the head, legs and internal organs. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11 This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the Lord’s Passover.

12 “On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.

14 “This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the Lord—a lasting ordinance. 15 For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel. 16 On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat; that is all you may do.

17 “Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come.

Later, God revealed the days of Unleavened Bread once more and added the Feast of weeks in Leviticus 23 and Deuteronomy 16:

Deuteronomy 16:8-10

8 For six days eat unleavened bread and on the seventh day hold an assembly to the Lord your God and do no work.

9 Count off seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the standing grain.

10 Then celebrate the Festival of Weeks to the Lord your God by giving a freewill offering in proportion to the blessings the Lord your God has given you.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

“The way to observe the Sabbath did not originate in Egypt. The Sabbath was revealed to the children of Israel in Exodus 16.”

The manna revealed the day on which the Sabbath was to be observed. But the command to have a holy convocation and not to work was given in Egypt.

There was no command in Egypt on how to observe the Sabbath. The command was how to observe the days of unleavened Bread. No work allowed but with an exception that the Sabbath did not allow.

So the manner in which the Sabbath was to be observed was first given in Egypt.

There is mention of a holy convocation mentioned in Exodus 16 for the Feast. When the first sabbath was first revealed it did not allow for a holy convocation. No one was to leave their habitations on the Sabbath. Later, when Leviticus 23 was written that rule was changed to allow a holy convocation on the Sabbath.

EXODUS 12

16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

Leviticus 23

1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

There is no mention of a holy convocation in Exodus 16 or Exodus 20. There is no escape from the fact that the way the Sabbath was to be observed was given in Egypt as how Nisan 15 was to be observed.

Yes, when the Sabbath was first given it did not follow the instructions of keeping the holy convocations of Passover and the days of Unleavened Bread. It was not changed when the ten commandments were given. Only later, when Leviticus 23 was written, was the Sabbath changed to the same rules that governed by the Days of Unleavened Bread. The same rules, with the exception that no work at all was allowed on the Sabbaths.

Seems ironic the day you are so insistent can not be called Sabbath (even though there is ample historic evidence it was), is the orgination of every Sabbath observation since the Israelites left Egypt.

There is no historical evidence that a day that permitted certain kinds of work were called Sabbath in the Christian Hebrew and Greek scriptures. All we have is a LXX mistranslation of Leviticus 23:11, a Pharisee historian named Josephus late in the first century CE, and a 2,000 yearlong rabbinic and Jewish tradition, all of which combined do not prove Nisan 15 is a Sabbath.

Why do you accept a mistranslation (misinterpretation) from the LXX as a proof of a Nisan 15 Sabbath? Why do you quote Josephus as proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath? Whether Nisan 15 was a Sabbath or not is the issue at hand, and to quote a Pharisee as proof that Nisan 15 is a Sabbath doesn't prove it is a Sabbath. I don't dispute Nisan 15 is a Sabbath in the Pharisee and rabbinic worldview. Neither do I accept a 2,000-year-old tradition that it is a Sabbath simply because it is so ancient. You don't believe Friday was the day of the crucifixion even though we have a 2,000-year-old tradition for that, so it is inconsistent to believe that something is true simply because it is an ancient tradition. You can claim it is an ancient tradition, but that, although nice to know, doesn't prove anything,

I don’t care for this old chestnut (as Dottard in Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange calls it) anymore as we have already discussed it to death, and I have made no progress. It’s a waste of time. Aren’t you tired of it too?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

When your position reaches a dead end you change lanes. The facts are clear. The first command given to observe a day of no work and have a holy convocation was in Exodus, before the Passover. That day was Nisan 15. The requirements on how to observe the Sabbath, came from Nisan 15.

The requirements on how to observe the Sabbath did not come from Nisan 15. Nisan 15 was given first, but it was not a Sabbath, allowed food preparation, and a Sabbath did not. The requirements on how to observe the Sabbath does not come from Exodus 12, although they have something in common. They each have a holy convocation. That doesn’t mean how to render Sabbath comes from Nisan 15. Jehovah, at the creations of the world, knew what prohibitions of each convocation was to have and not to have. He knew that before he gave Nisan 15 and 21in Exodus 12:16 and revealed the Sabbath to Israel in both Exodus 16 and Leviticus 23:3. In his foreknowledge, God knew that the Sabbath would be a holy convocation as would Nisan 15 and 21 and the others. He didn’t need to borrow from Nisan 15 to demand a holy convocation. A Sabbath forbade ANY work and Nisan 15 forbade only SERVILE work. This was determined long ago, before the creation of earth. Sabbath originally commanded people not to leave their dwellings (Exodus 16:23-30).

EXODUS 16

23 And he said unto them, This is that which the Lord hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28 And the Lord said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

29 See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

In the giving of the ten commandments Yahweh only told Moses and Israel to remember the Sabbath day (Exodus 20:8)

In Exodus 31 God demanded the death penalty for the breaking the Sabbath.

13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him

In Numbers 15 Yahweh demanded the death penalty for someone breaking the Sabbath,

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.

37 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,

38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:

39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, and do them ; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:

So it immensely ironic that you continue to claim Nisan 15 cannot be called a Sabbath, despite the fact it serves as the foundation for observing the weekly Sabbath and despite the historical evidence is it was treated as such for setting the time for First Fruits, and despite the fact it is still treated as such to this day.

It does not serve as the foundation of observing the weekly Sabbath. The Sabbath was predetermined by God before Moses and so was Nisan 15. That doesn’t mean Nisan 15 was modeled after the weekly Sabbath. They were all predetermined by God and just because they came in a certain order does not mean Sabbath was modeled after the first holy convocation. From a man’s perspective, it can be argued that Nisan 15 came about before the Sabbath existed, but the requirements of the Sabbath was quite different from Nisan 15. The longevity of a practice does not speak to its truth or accuracy.

As to your claim about the terminology common sense leads one to understand all days of no work would be referred to as a Sabbath. What other term makes any sense?

Any day where Yahweh forbids ANY work is a Sabbath. It’s that simple. If exceptions are allowed elsewhere in the Scriptures, then it is not a Sabbath.

I am finished debating this with you as I have grown weary of doing so. So, this will be my final post to you on this thread and you can have the final word with me on this topic. Now, if you use ad hominems or attack my character, I will respond. But I am finished with this topic with you.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

You continue to ignore my argument. What I said was how Sabbaths would be observed is found in how Nisan 15 and 21 were to be observed.

I wrote that I would give you the last word, but I need to write this. Thank You for accepting my invitation to debate on this forum. I had a stimulating experience, and you know a lot about the subject of three days and three nights and the Nisan 15 Sabbath, I just don't agree with you. Thanks for your participating and keeping things clean. I have encountered others who attack me personally in a debate in a forum and sometimes I retaliate and lower myself to their level. I was glad I didn't have to do it with you. Maybe we can debate another subject in the future, here, in this forum. Bye.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Yes you did say I would have the last word.

You are passionate and that’s a good thing. But, when someone makes a point which is correct, you would do well to acknowledge it, even if it weakens your position. It’s inappropriate to ignore a valid Biblical rebuttal to a position. It’s even more inappropriate to respond with a “snowstorm” verses which simply repeat a position but never address the objection to your position. Even if the response is, ”ok. You have a point, but I’m going to ignore the consequences of that point for these reasons….”

Also, it’s poor form to say, “I’m relying on Jewish tradition, like Abraham having the entire law. But I am going to dispute Jewish tradition, like Josephus.” In reality, you selectively choose the part of history which you believe supports your position and reject history which refutes it. Either use it or don’t but, whether you acknowledge it or not, your approach is an obvious tactic to avoid admitting your position has holets.

I must say this in my defense none of what you have said is true. I have totally demolished your position that Nisan 15 is a Sabbath, that the Septuagint is correct in its translation of Leviticus 23:11, that Joesphus was correct that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath without proof, and the nation's 2,000-year tradition of observing the Omer on Nisan 16 is correct simply because it is an ancient tradition. You have not refuted any of my points. You are evasive, you don't read my posts closely, and you repeat points that I have replied to. Just for any future readers of this thread who make it this far, I invite them to go to page 4 on this thread and begin with my first post in post #80 and then go to page 5 and begin with post # 81 and read the remaining posts they will see me answer all your posts fairly and thoroughly. I don't want to repeat myself so all I ask is if anyone makes it this far, please read from my first post on this thread and read pages 5-10 at your leisure and you will see I have answered all your comments and then some.

 

[Revelation Lad]

I must say this in my defense none of what you have said is true. I have totally demolished your position that Nisan 15 is a Sabbath, that the Septuagint is correct in its translation of Leviticus 23:11, that Joesphus was correct that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath without proof, and the nation's 2,000-year tradition of observing the Omer on Nisan 16 is correct simply because it is an ancient tradition. You have not refuted any of my points. You are evasive, you don't read my posts closely, and you repeat points that I have replied to. Just for any future readers of this thread who make it this far, I invite them to go to page 4 on this thread and begin with my first post in post #80 and then go to page 5 and begin with post # 81 and read the remaining posts they will see me answer all your posts fairly and thoroughly. I don't want to repeat myself so all I ask is if anyone makes it this far, please read from my first post on this thread and read pages 5-10 at your leisure and you will see I have answered all your comments and then some.

Totally demolished? You go on and on and on, never once admitting what God said in Exodus 12 about how Nisan 15 and 21 were to be observed is the first recorded instruction on how a day of not working is to be observed. These instructions are also how the weekly Sabbath is to observed. This is black and white. It is without dispute. If you were being honest, you would say, "the manner in which the weekly Sabbath was to be observed followed the instructions God gave Moses on how Nisan 15 and Nisan 21 were to be observed." That does not make them Sabbath. But it is a valid point to consider in how people might speak of the 7-day period of Unleavened Bread which often would have three days of no work and all three days were to be observed the same way.

Totally demolished? You insist Josephus was wrong and the the 2,000 year tradition (still being followed) is wrong. Well I'm sorry history has gotten in the way of what you think the Jews should have been doing. The point is whether people could call Nisan 15 a Sabbath, not whether they were literally right to do so. They could. They did. They still do. You can snowstorm 1,000 verses showing they were wrong to do so, but that does not erase what they did and continue to do.

The flaw in how you "debate" is a continual refusal to acknowledge historical fact, and a continual demand that people's behavior may be completely dismissed since it doesn't fit what you believe they should have been doing. You are 100% correct: they should not have fixed the day of Firstfruits as Nisan 16. That was an error. That is an error, But that is what they did and continue to do, and that means they consider Nisan 15 a Sabbath. Are correctly interpreting Scripture? No!!!! But that is what they did and still do!

So just as they ignore Scripture and incorrectly call Unleavened Bread, "Passover" they ignore Scripture and incorrectly behave as if Nisan 15 was the "Sabbath." This is history. The only thing you have demolished is common sense.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Totally demolished? You go on and on and on, never once admitting what God said in Exodus 12 about how Nisan 15 and 21 were to be observed is the first recorded instruction on how a day of not working is to be observed.

That is not true. Nisan 15 and 21 both allowed exceptions to the no work rule and hence were not Sabbaths. Even though they were the first recorded instruction on how a day of no servile working is to be observed, they weren’t necessarily the first recorded in God’s mind. Before the world was created God already had the seven annual convocations and the weekly Sabbath in his mind. He defined Nisan 15 and 21 as days off servile work, even if they were defined as such in Leviticus 23, some time after Exodus 12. The Sabbath was already in the mind of God when he created the world and its definition was different from the holy convocations. They forbade ANY work. I admit in Exodus 12 that God defined Nisan 15 and 21 as days off work but each with one exception. One could prepare his food on Nisan 15 and 21 and the Sabbath, already in God’s mind, forbade ANY work.

These instructions are also how the weekly Sabbath is to observed.

This is not true. The weekly Sabbath was not celebrated like Nisan 15 or 21. The weekly Sabbath forbade ANY work and it and the annual Sabbath Yom Kippur both prescribed the death penalty for breaking it. The other six did not. There was no work on the Sabbath, none at all, and there was a holy assembly on that day. That was how the Sabbath was observed. In Jesus’ day the Jews observed the waving of the Omer on the day after the first weekly Sabbath following the Seder.

This is black and white. It is without dispute.

It is with dispute. The Sabbath forbade ANY work and prescribed the death penalty for breaking it. Nisan 15 and 21 allowed an exception to the no work rule when first given to Moses and later, in the wilderness was modified to forbid only servile work. Furthermore, there was no death penalty for breaking Nisan 15 or 21. So your statement above that “These instructions are also how the weekly Sabbath is to be observed” is patently false

If you were being honest, you would say, "the manner in which the weekly Sabbath was to be observed followed the instructions God gave Moses on how Nisan 15 and Nisan 21 were to be observed."

That is not true, The manner in which the weekly Sabbath was to be observed did NOT follow the instructions God gave Moses on how Nisan 15 and Nisan 21 were to be observed. Sabbath forbade ANY work, Nisan 15 did not. Sabbath prescribed the death penalty for breaking it, Nisan 15 did not. So it seems you might be the dishonest one.

That does not make them Sabbath. But it is a valid point to consider in how people might speak of the 7-day period of Unleavened Bread which often would have three days of no work and all three days were to be observed the same way.

False. That is not true, Nisan 15 and 21 were rest days, Sabbath is, well, a Sabbath and they were not to be observed the same way. They were celebrated differently. Anyone who has studied this issue for any length of time knows this.

Totally demolished? You insist Josephus was wrong and the the 2,000 year tradition (still being followed) is wrong. Well I'm sorry history has gotten in the way of what you think the Jews should have been doing.

Josephus and his fellow Pharisees were wrong about Nisan 15 being the Sabbath. They quoted Leviticus 23:11 as their proof text to support their view that Nisan15 was a Sabbath so they could celebrate Nisan 16 as the waving of the Omer every year. Leviticus 23:11 in the LXX is a mistranslation. A falsehood does not become true merely because it dates back to antiquity. You don’t believe in the Friday crucifixion, yet it dates back 2,000 years ago. That doesn’t mean it’s true. You are willing to observe the longevity argument when it suits your purposes but drop it when it doesn’t suit your purpose. The Jewish history of the celebration of the Omer on Nisan 16 is wrong. That is the cold heart fact. And it doesn’t mean Nisan 15 is really a Sabbath. At least in God’s eyes.

The point is whether people could call Nisan 15 a Sabbath, not whether they were literally right to do so. They could. They did. They still do. You can snowstorm 1,000 verses showing they were wrong to do so, but that does not erase what they did and continue to do.

People can do whatever they want. They have free will. The Jews have called Nisan 15 Sabbath for 2,000 years but that does not prove Nisan 15 was Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth. Josephus believed Nisan 15 was Sabbath, but that did not make it so. I admit the Jewish religion has called it Sabbath for 2,000 years but that doesn’t make it truth in God’s eyes.

The flaw in how you "debate" is a continual refusal to acknowledge historical fact, and a continual demand that people's behavior may be completely dismissed since it doesn't fit what you believe they should have been doing.

Yes, it is a historical fact that the Jews have kept Nisan 15 as a Sabbath for 2,000 years. But they are in error when they do so, and you can’t accept this fact. Anything to hold on to your Nisan 15 Sabbath theory.

You are 100% correct: they should not have fixed the day of Firstfruits as Nisan 16. That was an error. That is an error, But that is what they did and continue to do, and that means they consider Nisan 15 a Sabbath.

Tradition of celebrating Nisan 15 as a Sabbath for 2,000 years does not mean Nisan 15 is a Sabbath. In the Jewish community today, certainly. But that doesn’t prove it was Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth.

Are correctly interpreting Scripture? No!!!! But that is what they did and still do!

The fact the Jews still erroneously celebrate Nisan 15 as a Sabbath doesn’t make Nisan 15 a Sabbath in Jesus’ day.

So just as they ignore Scripture and incorrectly call Unleavened Bread, "Passover" they ignore Scripture and incorrectly behave as if Nisan 15 was the "Sabbath." This is history. The only thing you have demolished is common sense.

Just because the Jews made the same mistake of mis-naming certain holidays incorrectly does not mean Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus was alive. You can claim I have demolished common sense all you want. I believe people that read this far will have a far different view than yours.

Here is a link back to the beginning when I first started posting on this thread.

The Crucifixion Not Friday

According to the Hebrew Scriptures (Masoretic Text), Nisan 15 was never designated as a Sabbath. There were three types of Sabbaths: 1) the weekly Sabbath, 2) the land Sabbath where the land had to lay unused every seventh year 3) the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), an annual Sabbath that fell in...

www.christianforums.com

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

You just keep recycling the same fraudulent positions. Please read Exodus 12.

I have done that.

There is no mention of servile work.

Not in Exodus 12 there isn't. But there is in Leviticus 23 attached to Nisan 15 and 21. Scripture for doctrine is an event is not meant for one verse to be taken out and a doctrine determined from it, but all scriptures pertinent to that doctrine must be used together to properly divide the word of truth. When you establish a doctrine, you don't use a verse in isolation but all verses pertaining to the subject. Exodus 12 mentions no work except food preparation. Hence, that is automatically not a Sabbath. Later, we learn that Nisan 15 and 21 do not permit servile work. When you can cherry pick verses to build a doctrine, certain doctrines can become false. You must interpret Nisan 15 and 21 in light of all verses regarding them.

The first command about observing Nisan 15 and 21 was no work and a holy convocation. Why won’t you admit what the Scripture states?

I have admitted that. But I also know to base a doctrine on Nisan 15 and 21 on one verse alone is foolhardy. You must use all verses regarding Nisan 15 and 21 to properly divide the word of truth. And the first command about observing Nisan 15 was not "no work and a holy convocation" That is false. That gives the impression it was a Sabbath. But it made an exception to the no work rule and allowed food preparation. Right there it is no longer a Sabbath and that is Exodus 12 speaking, not Leviticus 23.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

[Exo 12:16 ESV] 16 On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you.

No mention of servile work. As I said you have demolished common sense.

There is no mention of Sabbath either. You can prepare food though. The other English translations (see Bible Gateway below) of this verse plainly state no work shall be done EXCEPT food preparation. Therefore, there is work that is allowed on this day after all. Hence, no Sabbath. Just because "servile" is not mentioned in Exodus 12 is irrelevant. One does not make a doctrine out of a single verse, but out of all verses pertaining to the subject, no matter where it is in the Bible. So, even though the word "servile" is not used in Exodus 12 in regard to Nisan 15, it is used in Leviticus 23 in regard to Nisan 15. You try to build a doctrine on one verse and ignore the other verses on Nisan 15 that would refute your position. Leviticus 23 says no servile work and that is what it means when someone says, "rightly dividing the word of truth". It modifies Exodus 12:16 and even if it didn't, Exodus 12:16 makes an exception to the no work rule.

All English versions of Exodus 12:16 from Bible Gateway:

Exodus 12:16 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

As I say, you demolish common sense. My point of Exodus 12 is that is the first place in Scripture where the manner in which the Sabbath was to be observed is given. You don’t need the word Sabbath to understand the truth in that statement.

That is a false statement. Exodus 12 is the first place in Scripture where the way a holy convocation was to be observed was given. It was like a Sabbath in that it was a holy convocation and rest commanded. However, it did not forbid ANY work, hence it is not a Sabbath, just a holy convocation. A doctrine should be supported by consulting all the verses on the subject.

Let’s apply your demolishment of common sense to Genesis 2:1-3. According to you since the word Sabbath is missing, the passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

No, according to me it has a lot to do with the Sabbath. God sanctified the seventh day in this day of rest, and all that means is he set it aside for holy use. It was not called a Sabbath in Genesis but that does not prove Nisan 15 is a Sabbath. In Tanach you must use all scripture pertaining to a subject (the Sabbath) to determine proper usage. Not just one verse lifted out of context. So, if you use all scripture pertaining to Sabbath you will understand Genesis 2:1-3 was the Sabbath.

Nor is there any mention of the man or woman resting.

This is just plain silly. You must use all scripture on the subject to properly arrive at the correct doctrine. This is a classic argument from silence. Just because the Bible doesn’t mention the man and woman rested doesn’t mean they didn’t.

Therefore this passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath. There is no mention of the man or the woman not working. Therefore this passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath. No mention of a holy convocation. Again, no connection to the Sabbath. Hopefully you can admit your approach only demolishes common sense.

You must use all scripture on a subject to arrive at the proper understanding of what a verse in isolation means. Genesis 2 may refer to the Sabbath, it may not refer to the Sabbath. One must prayerfully consider all verses on the subject and determine for himself whether it is a Sabbath or not. The book of Genesis does not refer to the Sabbath, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t exist then. Maybe yes, maybe no.

God uses His actions as a basis for the Law. Do you think God convened a council and said “Guys, I’m thinking of issuing a law for mankind to observe the Sabbath. What should they do to observe the Sabbath?”

God didn’t convene a council. God has known all about the Sabbaths from a time dating back an eternity. He has always known which days would be called a Sabbath and which ones would not. Just because Sabbath holy convocations are similar to non-Sabbath holy convocations does not mean they are the same. You have some bizarre ideas about how you reason.

Or, doesn’t common sense tell you God knew what He was going to before ever issuing the command? So when you encounter those instructions in Exodus 12, you cannot dismiss them as if God did not have the Sabbath in mind, despite the fact He never used the word.

I have always said God knew in advance millennia before the creation which days were the Sabbaths would be and which ones wouldn’t.

REVELATION LAD wrote:
So when you encounter those instructions in Exodus 12, you cannot dismiss them as if God did not have the Sabbath in mind, despite the fact He never used the word.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:

I can dismiss them because God tells us in his word which days were merely holy convocations and which days were Sabbath holy convocations. They were similar, but not the same. God has often had holy convocations and Sabbath holy convocations in mind. You can’t on the other hand, encounter the instructions in Exodus 12 and conclude God did have the Sabbath in mind when he had Moses write that passage in Exodus 12:16 . That is adding to scripture something that is not meant to be there.

Question: Why does me not believing Exodus 12:16 was written with the weekly Sabbath in mind demolish common sense? How is it common sense to believe Exodus 12 had the Sabbath in mind when Nisan 15 and 21 were given?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Again and again you pick apples to compare with oranges until you realize your apple needs to be an orange and presto change-o your orange is now compared to apples.

You find it utterly impossible to consistently apply a point. Exodus 12 has nothing to do with how the Sabbath is be observed because the word Sabbath is not used.

That is True. Exodus 12 has nothing to do with how the Sabbath was to be observed, The word Sabbath is not used because a Sabbath forbade ANY work and Nisan 15 and 21 forbid work EXCEPT one. Hence, they are not Sabbaths.

No work? Yes. Holy convocation? Yes. Exactly as the requirements for the sabbath? Yes.

No. You lack the common sense to see that Nisan 15 and 21 are quite different from a Sabbath. How's that for common sense?

But…you see there is no mention of the Sabbath.

True

So these instructions which are exactly the way the Sabbath will be commanded to be observed, are completely and totally unrelated to the Sabbath.

False. The Sabbath was not patterned EXACTLY like Nisan 15 and 21. EXACTLY the way, you say? What about forbidding ANY work on one hand and forbidding ANY work except one on the other hand? How are those EXACTLY alike?

Of course God had no idea how the Sabbath would be observed until He gets to Leviticus, then He’s figured it out.

God knew from before the beginning of the cosmos.

Demolished again!

You have no clue who has demolished who.

Revelation Lad wrote:
By the way, why did God choose the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be a 7-day feast?

SABER TRUTH TIGER
What does this have to do with whether Nisan 15 is a Sabbath or not? Are you releasing a rabbit for me to go chase while you try to change the subject from the Nisan 15 Sabbath issue? Why do you think God chose the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be a 7-day feast? I know the number seven has some significance to the Jews in the Hebrew Scriptures. But, how does this make Nisan 15 a Sabbath? Please, I don't want to go chasing rabbits. Just let me know what you think the reason is and the relevance to whether Nisan 15 is a Sabbath or not.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

What is the Sabbath? A remembrance of the Seventh Day. It is based on something that happened. God did not simply issue a command, which He could have done. Instead He based the observation on an actual event.

The Sabbath is not a mere remembrance of the Seventh Day. It is a day of solemn rest from all labors in remembrance of the day God rested from his creative work.

When God brings His people out of Egypt, He does the same thing. Why are they instructed to observe the Passover? To remember what God has done.

Yes, again, a day of solemn rest to commemorate bringing the children of Israel out of Egypt. It was also the "Passing Over" of the Death Angel on the night the angel of death passed over the first born of the children of Israel.

Before ever issuing a command to observe the Sabbath He instructed His people to remember being brought out of Egypt. And what pattern did He use? The one from creation. 7-days with a day of no work on the first and seventh day. And those days are no work (same language as the Sabbath) and a holy convocation (same as the Sabbath).

The first and seventh day of the Days of Unleavened Bread in Exodus 12 had no work (except food preparation) and were holy convocations. Elsewhere in the scripture they forbid only SERVILE work. Remember, when constructing a doctrine, you must use all scripture pertinent to the doctrine. Therefore, it doesn’t matter if the first and seventh day were holy convocations (like the weekly Sabbath) and days of no work except food preparation (unlike like the weekly Sabbath). Also, you make God appear to lack omniscience. You claim God modeled the worship on the Sabbath Day from the Days of Unleavened Bread. No work and holy convocation. But God already knew what he was going to do regarding the Sabbath an eternity before the creation. He did not have to model the Sabbath after the Days of Unleavened Bread because the Sabbaths and holy convocations were already in his mind from before the beginning. Just because Sabbaths and non-Sabbath holy convocations have things in common does not mean God borrowed from one to make the other.

When He finally gives the command to observe the Sabbath, He takes what He established for Unleavened Bread as the pattern.

Not true. God knew of the Sabbath long before the creation. He knew what it was and what it would require. He does call it a holy convocation, not because the term was borrowed from the days of unleavened Bread, but because a holy convocation was called for on its own right. God already knew the weekly Sabbath would be a day of no work and a holy convocation. Had there been no days of Unleavened Bread, Sabbath would still have had a holy convocation.

It is black and white. The only thing preventing you from acknowledging what is written is a ridiculous fear that somehow admitting this will undermine your position.

Really? You can read my mind? Please prove to me that is the only thing preventing me from acknowledging what you are claiming. Because it would undermine my position? Basically, you are claiming that I know you are right deep down but just don’t want to admit it because it would undermine my argument. To imply that I am willfully ignorant speaks volumes about your motives.

You hammer away at one sliver of truth with zero regard for Scripture. You want to demolish all common sense without even stepping back and asking why God chose the time of Passover for the crucifixion. Why not the Day of Atonement?

I’ve been told that Jesus was determined to be crucified before God created the cosmos. He chose the first month of the season for his own reasons. If he had chosen the seventh month instead, then you and I would be having a different discussion.

In your demand for placing the crucifixion and resurrection on certain days of the week, you completely ignore the significance the events were placed on the annual calendar, not the weekly.

You place the crucifixion on Thursday and I don’t know what day you place the resurrection, but you do have a certain day in mind so why are you upset I place the crucifixion on Friday? I do not ignore the significance of Nisan 15 but I do keep in mind that having the correct day for the waving of the Omer the year Jesus died is crucial. Omer and Shavout should fall on the original correct days the year Jesus died.

You demand the primacy of the weekly Sabbath despite the unquestioned fact the most important events in human history were placed on the annual calendar. Then, in order to complete the total demolishment of common sense, you insist the annual calendar is of no significance.

That is not true. The annual calendar is significant and each of the seven annual convocations were important remembrances of events in Jewish history. But that doesn’t make Nisan 15 a Sabbath. You don't even know what common sense is.

I don't know what happened, but in light of what you wrote on Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange in 2018, how did we even get into this debate?

Matthew 27:62: "the day that followed the day of the preparation" - Why not call Sabbath a Sabbath?

In the following verse Matthew 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate Why didn't Matthew simply say "on the

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

You also didn't believe the Friday crucifixion. In a comment you wrote:

A death on Friday and resurrection on Sunday cannot include 3 nights.
CommentedFeb 4, 2019 at 14:18

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

You continue to mix apples and oranges. You understand the Sabbath is based on the Seventh Day. Yet there is not one word in Genesis of the Sabbath or if the people are to remember the Seventh Day or how they are to observe.

Scripture is very clear the final form of the Sabbath observance is given in progressive revelation. The revelation is both historical actions by God and commands from God. It is clear the revelation begins in Egypt and the Passover and proleptic observation of Unleavened Bread embody central aspects of how the Sabbath is to be observed. There is not one word of a holy convocation in Genesis or in the Ten Commandments. Yet in your apple and orange analysis, the command in Exodus is utterly meaningless because the word Sabbath is missing and because later commands further delineates the annual observations from the weekly.

On one hand you claim history (creation) is the basis for the Sabbath, despite the absence of the word. You can make this claim because the pattern is clearly present, despite the absence of specific terminology. You are 100% correct. But when the events happen which will serve as the basis for all observations of all no work days, both weekly and annual, these can be dismissed because the word Sabbath is absent and because God continues to define His calenda

I used to keep the Sabbath weekly in the 70s and 80s, but later stopped observing it when I came to see it was not commanded for a Christian to keep. I used to debate the Sabbath issue a lot with those who worshipped God on Sunday but when I realized the Gentiles were not under the Law, I gradually abandoned the keeping of the Sabbath. I still keep it now and then. If I need an extra day of worshipping God for a particular reason, I choose Saturday as the day to keep.

The purpose of this thread is not to debate about the weekly Sabbath, but rather which day was Jesus crucified and is Nisan 15 a Sabbath. I will not debate with you whether or not Sabbath was in existence since the first weekend in earth’s history or why it is not mentioned in Genesis. If you never keep the Sabbath that is up to you. I am commanded by Yahweh (through Paul) not to judge a man by what day he keeps, or regarding the feast days and new moons. I am also instructed that each man that esteems one day above the others must be fully persuaded in his own mind.

However, I want to stay focused. All holy days and Sabbaths existed in Yahweh’s mind from eternity, it doesn’t matter if they were given at different times than the others. From man’s point of view, the days of Unleavened Bread were given before the weekly Sabbath but that doesn’t mean the Sabbath borrowed anything from the Days of Unleavened Bread. They co-existed in God’s mind before the creation of the Universe.

What I am interested in though is what changed your mind from your 2018 stance in Bible Hermeneutics?

Matthew 27:62: "the day that followed the day of the preparation" - Why not call Sabbath a Sabbath? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

REVELATION LAD wrote:
The question is whether Nisan 15 can be called “Sabbath.” The answer is yes. It can be. And it was and still is. This is evidenced by the fact the Jews have fixed the date of Firstfruits as Nisan 16. Since Firstfruits is observed after the Sabbath, fixing the date as Nisan 16 means Nisan 15 is called Sabbath.

SABER TRUTH TIGER replied:
Yes, Nisan 15 CAN be called a Sabbath, and I admit that in my answer in the Biblical Hermeneutics and my post on this thread (page 5, # 81). I also admitted Josephus referred to Nisan 15 indirectly in his writings. But you and I are debating whether Nisan 15 is correctly called a Sabbath. We’ve already have agreed that Nisan 15 CAN be called a Sabbath.

REVEREND LAD wrote:
Your objection is Nisan 15 does not meet the legal definition of the Sabbath. Absolutely right. Nevertheless, the people did and still do call Nisan 15 the Sabbath. Thus the answer to the question is yes, Nisan 15 can be called Sabbath.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responded:
Yes. It can be.

REVEREND LAD wrote:
I do not dispute your position that the people are in error in fixing Firstfruits as Nisan 16. I think that is obvious. But that does erase history which shows the people did call Nisan 15 Sabbath.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responded:
History indicates there was a period of time sometime during the first century BCE and 50 CE that the Omer and Shavuot was celebrated by the Jews according to the Sadducean calendar when Jesus was alive, According to the Megillat Taanit the worship concerning the Omer and Shavuot was “restored” to the Pharisean method when Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai became Nasi of the Sanhedrin in 50 CE. See my post on page 5, post #81. Also, Nisan 21 was not called a Sabbath either. Even the Pharisees didn’t call it a Sabbath until long after Jesus died. Nisan 21 was called a Sabbath for the first time after the destruction of the Temple. When the Sadducees and the Pharisees counted the seven Sabbath countdown (the Pharisees counted seven weeks and not seven Sabbaths) the Sadducees did not count Nisan 21 as a Sabbath in their seven Sabbath countdown. That was because to the Sadducees, Nisan 21 was not a Sabbath. Do you admit that under Pharisee reckoning, the Omer and Shavuot are reckoned on the wrong days? Calling the Omer and Shavuot on the wrong days brings harm. Calling the days of Unleavened Bread Passover doesn’t bring harm.

REVEREND LAD
As a rebuttal to your absurd insistence that we can ignore history,

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I don’t make such insistence that we can ignore history. I believe we should follow history as much as possible. Obviously, not all history can be trusted but you ignore history when you refuse to acknowledge that when Jesus died the Sadducean Jews celebrated the Omer the day after the first weekly Sabbath after the seder. Many of the Jews from the time of the Babylon captivity to the first century BCE celebrated Nisan 16 as the Omer because they believed Nisan 15 was a Sabbath. Sometime during thee first century BCE (maybe even a little earlier) the Sadducees seized control of Temple worship, and the calendar follow their belief system. Accordingly, when the Pharisees regained control of the Temple they reinstalled the Nisan 15 Sabbath, the waving of the Omer on Nisan 16, and the celebration of Shavuot. If the Pharisees had had control of which day was the Sabbath when Jesus was alive why does history say the Pharisees REGAINED control of the Nisan 16 Omer and the day of Shavuot later, after Jesus had died? It is ironic Jesus died the year in which the Sadducean and the Pharisean calendar had the same days of the week and were identical in the dates

REVELATION LAD.
I point out the Bible states the people called Nisan 15 to Nisan 21 “Passover.” Was that correct? No. There is nothing in the Bible that permits calling Nisan 15 to 21, “Passover.” But they did and many still do.

SABER TRUTH
Yes, many Jews call Nisan 15 a Sabbath and many call the days of Unleavened Bread Passover. But they are not the same. I have mentioned this to you before, but calling the days of Unleavened Bread Passover does no harm to the correct order of Passover (Nisan 14) and the days of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15 to 21). Calling Nisan 15 the Sabbath that preceded Nisan 16 Omer throws the holy convocations out of sync and Shavuot falls on a different day of the week from year to year. The original Shavuot always fell on Sunday. Therefore, there is a reason why using the correct day of the Omer is so important.

REVELATION LAD
I also point out that even though the people were wrong in calling Nisan 15 Sabbath, there is some justification for doing so while there is nothing justifying calling Nisan 15 to 21 Passover.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I just mentioned above why there is no justification for calling Nisan 15 Sabbath even though a lot of people do anyway, and they don’t know any better. Calling the days of Unleavened Bread Passover is unscriptural but no harm is done by calling it that. But changing the days the Omer and Shavuot are to be celebrated changes a lot of things and causes the wrong days to be observed, When Jesus was on earth, Yahweh had made it possible for both the Sadducees and the Pharisees calendar to fall on the same day so on the year Jesus was crucified and resurrected was according to the actual calendar and the same day on both calendars. This seems to lend credence to the belief that Nisan 16, a Sunday that year, represented the first fruits, Jesus's resurrection.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

“…why there is no justification for calling Nisan 15 Sabbath, even though a lot of people do anyway…” But the crux of the question is just that: what do people do. Based on the LXX, based on Josephus, based on observing Firstfruits, people call Nisan 15 the Sabbath. Even if the Sadducees were successful in putting the Temple observations back to what you say is the way it was supposed to be, there is no evidence the people stopped using the term Sabbath. For all Greek speaking Jews who used the LXX, it would be the Sabbath. For anyone who did not observe the Feast in Jerusalem it would be the Sabbath. And even if the Sadducees did the right thing it was contrary to the Pharisees which was the dominate sect numerically and in every place outside Jerusalem.

The overwhelming historical evidence is Nisan 15 was called Sabbath by tradition, just as Unleavened Bread was called Passover by tradition. And those traditions remain to this very day.

REVELATION LAD 10-12-2
“…why there is no justification for calling Nisan 15 Sabbath, even though a lot of people do anyway…” But the crux of the question is just that: what do people do. Based on the LXX,

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The LXX passage in Leviticus 23:11 is a mistranslation of the Hebrew and some scholars believe it is probable that the Jews learned to celebrate their Abib 15 holy convocation as a Sabbath with first changing the name of the month to Nisan and then due to the Babylonians celebrating every Nisan 15 as a Sabbath. It’s unlikely the Jews left behind in Judah changed their view of the Nisan 15 holy convention until some time later. Regardless, not all Jews bought this theory as there was division between the Jews on this issue throughout the second temple period.

REVELATION LAD
based on Josephus, based on observing Firstfruits, people call Nisan 15 the Sabbath.

SABER TRUTH
Josephus was a Pharisee, so of course he would take the Pharisee view. When he wrote about it in 94 CE the Pharisee view was dominant in the Jewish world. Not everyone, mind you, as there have been offshoots of the Sadducees since the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.

REVELATION LAD
Even if the Sadducees were successful in putting the Temple observations back to what you say is the way it was supposed to be, there is no evidence the people stopped using the term Sabbath.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I have no doubt that the Pharisees and their followers adamantly believed Nisan 15 was the Sabbath referred to in Leviticus 23:11. During Jesus’s time the Sadducees controlled the Temple worship and the Pharisee version of Leviticus 23:11 was not practiced again until it was restored by Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai sometime after he became Nasi of the Temple in 50 CE.

REVELATION LAD
For all Greek speaking Jews who used the LXX, it would be the Sabbath.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
ALL Greek speaking Jews who used the LXX would call it the Sabbath? What about the Greek speaking Jews who also knew the Hebrew text? How do you know they would observe Nisan 15 as a Sabbath? Especially when the Sadducean view was practiced in Palestine?

REVELATION LAD
For anyone who did not observe the Feast in Jerusalem it would be the Sabbath. And even if the Sadducees did the right thing it was contrary to the Pharisees which was the dominate sect numerically and in every place outside Jerusalem

SABER TRUTH TIGER
They can be greater numerically and maybe in every place outside Judea and Galilee, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t follow the Sadducee reckoning, which controlled Temple worship in Israel during Jesus’s time on earth. There is no evidence anywhere that Nisan 15 was celebrated as a Sabbath while Jesus was alive on earth. We have 1) the Babylon tradition prior to the Second Temple, 2) the mistranslated verse of the LXX, 3) A Pharisee in 94 CE calling it a Sabbath indirectly, and 4) a two thousand year tradition, a 2,000 year tradition of a false doctrine. Friday crucifixion is a 2,000 year tradition and yet you refuse to recognize it. So a 2,000 year tradition means nothing to you If it contradicts something you believe.

REVELATION LAD
Unleavened Bread was called Passover by tradition. And those traditions re main to this very day.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Traditions of men. Calling the Days of Unleavened Bread Passover is a false tradition but I don’t sweat it. The waving of the Omer on Nisan 16 is a false tradition of man but it is a crucial error to the original reckoning of the Hebrew Holy Days before the Babylon Captivity. There is no evidence that the majority of Jews celebrated Nisan 15 after the return from Babylon but we know some did and by the time of the second or first century CE the Pharisees followed the Nisan 15 Sabbath but were opposed by the Sadducees. Sometime in the second or first century BCE the Sadducees gained control of the Temple worship and held it until the middle of the first century CE.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Why do you stop defining the Sabbath in Leviticus? Isn’t the final word in Deuteronomy?

Deuteronomy 5 - 12 “‘Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day.”

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Yes, Deuteronomy makes it clear that the Jews were given the Sabbath as a memorial of their departure from Egypt, but I am not debating that subject with you. I observe the Sabbath sometimes when I need extra spiritual closeness to Yahweh, but I don't think God commands Gentiles to worship on it because they are commanded to.

The last instruction about observing the Sabbath is to remember they were brought out of Egypt. Exodus 12 begins the instruction on how the Sabbath is to be observed and the last word is for the people to observe the Sabbath because it is a remembrance of the Exodus.

Yes, that is true. The last word explains it, but you must use all words pertaining to the subject to properly divide the word of truth.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Traditions of men is the issue. It strikes me as incredibly naive, or simply denying reality, to accept people had a tradition of calling Unleavened Bread “Passover“ while denying the tradition of calling Nisan 15 Sabbath.

Why do you feel it is incredibly naive, or denying reality, to accept the days of Unleavened Bread as Passover? I don't accept it as Passover. Luke wrote that it was called Passover, not that it was Passover. It does no harm to God's sacred Calendar to call it that so I don't sweat it. If someone wants to call it Passover is fine with me. However, changing the dates of the Omer and Shavuot does great harm to God's sacred calendar. Why would you want to accept Nisan 15 as a Sabbath if it would make a mess of God's redemptive plan as outlined in the holy convocations? Yes, you are right. I let those who want to observe Nisan 15 as a Sabbath to do so but if I were a Jew, I would not celebrate Nisan 15 as a Sabbath and follow a Karaite congregation in all probability.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Yes it does. The proof is in how Passover, which is missing from Deuteronomy, is the name used for Unleavened Bread.

Let‘s see if we can find common ground. Do you believe the resurrection occurred on the Feast of Firstfruits? If so, on what day should future remembrances of the resurrection be?

Yes, I believe the resurrection happened the same day the Omer was waved, but I don't know what day it should be celebrated in the Millenium.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

In the Millenium? Do you mean now?

I don't know because the fact that you asked this question leaves me to believe you may be a preterist. I was raised to believe when Christ returns to earth it would happen in our time and world peace would ensue and all nations would trust Jesus and Yahweh. This hasn't happened yet, but I don't know enough about it to debate a Preterist. Besides, I don't want to chase rabbits in this debate. I want to stay focused on the subject.

By the way, I am still keenly interested on why you changed your view on the Nisan 15 Sabbath from what it was in BHSE in 2018? Did you change your mind due to increased study? A lot of prayer? What changed your view on this subject?

Matthew 27:62: "the day that followed the day of the preparation" - Why not call Sabbath a Sabbath?

In the following verse Matthew 27:62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate Why didn't Matthew simply say "on the

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

REVELATION LAD wrote:
I am not following you. Most Christians observe the resurrection on Easter Sunday. Shouldn’t it be remembered on the Feast of Firstfruits?

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:
The Feast of First Fruits does not always fall on Easter Sunday, so, Easter should not be remembered on the Feast of First Fruits. Easter is a Christian holiday and Feast of First Fruits is a Jewish holiday. Easter always falls on a Sunday, First Fruits does not.

REVELATION LAD wrote:
I did not change my answer. The question is can Nisan 15 be called a Sabbath, not is it a Sabbath. The main error in your analysis is this apples and oranges argument. You insist it is wrong to call it the Sabbath (apples) therefore the people did not call it Sabbath (oranges).

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:
Your apples and oranges argument doesn’t hold water. I do insist it is wrong to call Nisan 15 a Sabbath (apples) and therefore people should not believe it is a Sabbath. However, I do NOT insist that Nisan 15 cannot be called a Sabbath (the so-called oranges).

REVELATION LAD wrote:
You must deny history because the tradition was Biblically incorrect,

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:
The Nisan 15 Sabbath tradition has been a tradition for thousands of years. That does not make it scripturally true. Can people call it a Sabbath? Yes, and I have always admitted that. You have free will. You can call it whatever you want. You don’t believe the Friday crucifixion tradition even though it has been a tradition for 2,000 years. Why?

REVELATION LAD
despite the fact it was the tradition, remains the tradition, is documented by Josephus, and is what the LXX says. All must be dismissed because all are in error…

SABER TRUTH TIGER
It was a tradition and still is. That doesn’t mean it’s accurate. The documentation by Josephus, made in 94 CE, not only follows a false tradition, but it is sixty years removed from when Jesus died. It doesn’t prove that the Pharisees controlled Temple worship when Jesus was alive. The LXX is a mistranslation. They should all be dismissed as proof that Nisan 15 is a Sabbath.

REVELATION LAD
but the question is not whether it was correct to call Nisan 15 Sabbath, rather can it be called.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
This is old news. I have already conceded it CAN be called a Sabbath and have done so since my first post on the subject (page 5, post # 81 on this thread). You are trashing a strawman because I do not claim Nisan 15 can’t be called a Sabbath but rather concede it CAN be called a Sabbath.

REVELATION LAD
Perhaps your dogmatic approach is based on a correct understanding of Scripture as if the question is asking that.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I know what the question asked. I have admitted it since my first post on this thread, (page 5, # 81).

REVELATION LAD
But I take the question as asking if there some justification in the tradition for what people did. For example, can Unleavened Bread be called Passover? Biblically no. Traditionally yes.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I have answered this many times and you either ignore what I write or just skim what I write then write a reply. There is a difference between calling Nisan 15 a Sabbath erroneously and calling the Days of Unleavened Bread Passover erroneously. They are both wrong but calling the Days of Unleavened Bread does no harm because Nisan 14 remains Passover and Nisan 15 -21 are still called the Days of Unleavened Bread. Nothing really changes when you call the Days of Unleavened Bread Passover. Calling the Days of Unleavened Bread Passover was a use of the Greek *synedoche* where a part is used for the whole.

However, when you mistake Nisan 15 as a Sabbath, both the Omer and Shavuot fall on the wrong days of the year except when the Pharisee and the Sadducean calendars coincide. It’s interesting that the year Jesus died both the Pharisee reckoning and the Sadducean reckoning aligned perfectly and the Omer and Shavuot fell on the same day of the week and date.