The Crucifixion Not Friday

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Here is an excerpt from a Jewish writing in the sixth century CE that refers to the time that the "true" date of the festival of Shavuot was restored, which we have seen elsewhere, was when Rabbi Yohana ben Zakkai was Nasi of the Sanhedrin. That was in 50 CE or later.

When Jesus was alive the Sadducee (Boethusian) reckoning prevailed and Nisan 15 was not considered a Sabbath by those who were in charge of the timing of the holy convocations. Instead, it was considered a semi-holiday. For further information, see my post on this thread, page 5 post # 81 at the bottom of this post and read it all. If you want, you can read post # 82 as well which exposes the Septuagint version of Leviticus 23:11 as a mistranslation (really a misinterpretation).

Menachot 65b

https://tinyurl.com/2yhk28

If the sixteenth of Nisan occurs on Shabbat, the court emissary says to the assembled: Shall I cut the sheaves on this Shabbat? The assembly says in response: Yes. The emissary repeats: On this Shabbat? The assembly says: Yes. The court emissary says to those assembled: Shall I cut the sheaves? And they say to him in response: Cut. The emissary repeats: Shall I cut the sheaves? And they say to him: Cut.

The emissary asks three times with regard to each and every matter, and the assembly says to him: Yes, yes, yes. The mishna asks: Why do I need those involved to publicize each stage of the rite to that extent? The mishna answers: It is due to the Boethusians, as they deny the validity of the Oral Law and would say: There is no harvest of the omer at the conclusion of the first Festival day of Passover unless it occurs at the conclusion of Shabbat. The publicity was to underscore that the sixteenth of Nisan was the proper time for the omer harvest.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 1

Here the Gemara refers to the Boethusians (closely related to the Sadducees) who held to waving the Omer on the day after the first weekly Sabbath following the Passover meal. Those Pharisees that became the rabbis believed the waving of the Omer would always occur on the day after the First Day of Unleavened Bread. Hence, the rabbis believed the waving of the Omer always occurred on Nisan 16. It is interesting to note the reason the Boethusians held the position they did is because they denied the validity of the Oral Law, which the Pharisees held.

GEMARA: The Sages taught in a baraita: These are the days on which fasting is prohibited, and on some of them eulogizing is prohibited as well: From the New Moon of Nisan until the eighth of the month, the proper sacrifice of the daily offering was established, and therefore it was decreed not to eulogize on these dates. And furthermore, from the eighth of Nisan until the end of the festival of Passover, the correct date for the festival of Shavuot was restored, and it was similarly decreed not to eulogize during this period.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 2

Here the Gemara mentions that the “correct” date for the festival of Shavuot was *restored*. That means that there was a time when the Sadducean method was used and later the Pharisee position on the celebration was restored. It was restored because it was the Sadducees (Boethusians) who had control of the Temple worship before that. Thus, somehow, the Pharisees lost it for a while. Then they regained it again sometime during the first century CE. The Jews, in the introduction above in Menachot 65b, refer to the Boethusians, who were a first century CE group in Palestine. It was from the Boethusians the Pharisees wrested control of the "correct" date of the Omer and Shavuot.

Here is some information about the Sadducees from Google AI.
The Sadducees gained significant control over Temple worship during the Second Temple period, essentially from the 2nd century BCE until the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, with their power stemming from their close ties to the priestly aristocracy and high priestly positions within the Temple hierarchy; they were considered the dominant force in Temple management throughout this time period.

The AI is not entirely accurate as Rabbi Ben Zakkai became Nasi over the Sanhedrin in 50 CE and sometime after that the Pharisees were able to wrest control of the Temple from the Sadducees. No one knows for sure the year, but it was before the fall of the Temple.

Boethusian | Sadducees, Pharisees, Temple | Britannica

Boethusian, member of a Jewish sect that flourished for a century or so before the destruction of Jerusalem in ad 70. Their subsequent history is obscure, as is also the identity of Boethus, their founder. Because of evident similarities, some scholars tend to view the Boethusians as merely a

www.britannica.com

Sadducee | Description, Doctrines, & Facts | Britannica

Sadducee, member of a Jewish priestly sect that flourished for about two centuries before the destruction of the Second Temple of Jerusalem in 70 ce. The Sadducees were the party of high priests, aristocratic families, and merchants—the wealthier elements of the population.

www.britannica.com

Here is the link to post # 81 in this thread. You can read post # 82 also if you wish.

The Crucifixion Not Friday

According to the Hebrew Scriptures (Masoretic Text), Nisan 15 was never designated as a Sabbath. There were three types of Sabbaths: 1) the weekly Sabbath, 2) the land Sabbath where the land had to lay unused every seventh year 3) the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), an annual Sabbath that fell in...

www.christianforums.com

I was doing some research on Google AI and it indicated that Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai became Nasi of the Sanhedrin AFTER the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE. I doubt this is true but I thought I might add it for balance:

AI Overview
Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai became a leader of the Jewish Council, or Nasi, after the destruction of the Temple in the first century CE:

• Background
  Yohanan ben Zakkai was a rabbi and leading authority during the time of the tannaim, the early rabbis of the first and second centuries CE. He was a student of Hillel the Elder and a leading representative of the Pharisees.
  
  
• Actions during the revolt
  During the first Jewish rebellion against the Roman Empire, Yohanan ben Zakkai faked his death and was smuggled out of Jerusalem in a coffin. He presented himself to the Roman general Vespasian and predicted that Vespasian would become emperor.
  
  
• Establishment of the academy at Yavneh
  Vespasian granted Yohanan ben Zakkai's request to establish a center for Jewish learning in Yavneh. This academy became a key center for the preservation of Judaism after the destruction of Jerusalem.
• Succeeded by Gamliel II
  Yohanan ben Zakkai was succeeded by Gamliel II as leader of the Jewish Council.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
From Google AI

The Tannaim era was a period in Jewish history from about 10–220 CE when the Tannaim, a group of rabbinic scholars, teachers, and community leaders, were active:

• Dates:
  The Tannaim era lasted about 210 years, from the time of Hillel and Shammai around 20 B.C.E. until the written compilation of the Mishnah around 220 C.E.
  
  
• People:
  The Tannaim were a group of several hundred scholars who lived and worked in Palestine. Their views are recorded in the Mishnah, which was compiled by the patriarch Judah ha-Nasi and his school.
  
  
• Work:
  The Tannaim were responsible for compiling oral traditions related to religious law. They were direct transmitters of uncodified oral tradition.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

MENACHOT 65a and 65b

My responses follow:

https://tinyurl.com/yvnjayas

Part One of the Controversy of Shavuot and the Omer

If the sixteenth of Nisan occurs on Shabbat, the court emissary says to the assembled: Shall I cut the sheaves on this Shabbat? The assembly says in response: Yes. The emissary repeats: On this Shabbat? The assembly says: Yes. The court emissary says to those assembled: Shall I cut the sheaves? And they say to him in response: Cut. The emissary repeats: Shall I cut the sheaves? And they say to him: Cut.

The emissary asks three times with regard to each and every matter, and the assembly says to him: Yes, yes, yes. The mishna asks: Why do I need those involved to publicize each stage of the rite to that extent? The mishna answers: It is due to the Boethusians, as they deny the validity of the Oral Law and would say: There is no harvest of the omer at the conclusion of the first Festival day of Passover unless it occurs at the conclusion of Shabbat. The publicity was to underscore that the sixteenth of Nisan was the proper time for the omer harvest.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 1
Here the Gemara refers to the Boethusians (closely related to the Sadducees) who held to waving the Omer on the day after the first weekly Sabbath following the Passover meal. Those Pharisees that became the rabbis believed the waving of the Omer would always occur on the day after the First Day of Unleavened Bread. Hence, the rabbis believed the waving of the Omer always occurred on Nisan 16. It is interesting to note the reason the Boethusians held the position they did is because they denied the validity of the Oral Law, which the Pharisees held.

GEMARA: The Sages taught in a baraita: These are the days on which fasting is prohibited, and on some of them eulogizing is prohibited as well: From the New Moon of Nisan until the eighth of the month, the proper sacrifice of the daily offering was established, and therefore it was decreed not to eulogize on these dates. And furthermore, from the eighth of Nisan until the end of the festival of Passover, the correct date for the festival of Shavuot was restored, and it was similarly decreed not to eulogize during this period.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 2
Here the Gemara mentions that the “correct” date for the festival of Shavuot was *restored*. That means that there was a time when the Sadducean method was used and later the Pharisee position on the celebration was restored. It was restored because before it was the Sadducees had control of the Temple worship. The Pharisees regained it again sometime during the mid to late first century CE.

(snip)

Gemara

The Gemara discusses the next period listed in the baraita: From the eighth of Nisan until the end of the festival of Passover, the correct date for the festival of Shavuot was restored, and it was similarly decreed not to eulogize during this period.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 3
Again, this again refers to the fact that the Shavuot the Pharisees kept was restored. So at one time it was the Sadducean method was being used. When? No one knows for sure but it is apparent it was sometime during the first century CE.

Gemara

As the Boethusians would say that the festival of Shavuot always occurs after Shabbat, on a Sunday.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 4
This was true of both the Boethusians and the Sadducees. For them, Shavuot ALWAYS fell on a Sunday.

Gemara

Their reasoning was that the verse states, with regard to the omer offering and the festival of Shavuot that follows seven weeks later: “And you shall count for you from the morrow after the day of rest [hashabbat], from the day that you brought the sheaf [omer] of the waving; seven weeks shall there be complete” (Leviticus 23:15). Disregarding the oral tradition, the Boethusians interpreted the phrase “from the morrow after the day of rest [hashabbat]” literally, as referring to Shabbat, not the Festival day.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 5
Here the writers of the Gemara refer to the “morrow after the day of REST” and not the “morrow after the SABBATH” because they did not begin their 50-day countdown to Shavuot from the day after the weekly Sabbath, Sunday. They began the countdown from Nisan 16, the day after the first day of Unleavened Bread. The Pharisees and the rabbis believed the first day of Unleavened Bread was an annual Sabbath and began their 50-day countdown to Shavuot on Nisan 16.

Gemara

At the time, Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai joined the discussion with the Boethusians and said to them: Fools! From where have you derived this? And there was no man who answered him, except for one elderly man who was prattling [mefatpet] at him, and he said: Moses, our teacher, was a lover of the Jewish people and he knew that Shavuot is only one day. Therefore, he arose and established it after Shabbat, in order that the Jewish people would enjoy themselves for two days. Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai recited this verse in response to that old man: “It is eleven days’ journey from Horeb to Kadesh Barnea by the way of Mount Seir” (Deuteronomy 1:2).

SABER TRUTH TIGER 6
Here, Rabbi Yohanan ben Zakkai takes up the discussion and it is he that is credited with helping the Pharisees regain control of the rabbinical reckoning of Shavuot.

—————————————————————

65B

And if Moses, our teacher, was a lover of the Jewish people, why did he delay them in the wilderness forty years? The elderly man said to him: My teacher, you dismiss me with this retort? Rabbi Yoḥanan ben Zakkai said to him: Fool! And will our perfect Torah not be as worthy as your frivolous speech? Your claim can easily be refuted.

Gemara

Rabbi Yoḥanan ben Zakkai cites a proof that Shavuot does not need to occur specifically on a Sunday. One verse states: “Even to the morrow after the seventh week you shall number fifty days; and you shall present a new meal offering to the Lord” (Leviticus 23:16), and one verse, the preceding one, apparently contradicts this when it states: “And you shall count for you from the morrow after the day of rest, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the waving; seven weeks shall there be complete.” Is the festival of Shavuot seven full weeks after Passover, i.e., counting from Sunday through Shabbat seven times; or is it fifty days after Passover?

SABER TRUTH TIGER 7
Here is a translation into English from the Hebrew of Leviticus 23:15-16. The translation is from the New American Standard Version, 1995 edition.

15 ‘You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths.

16 You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh sabbath; then you shall present a new grain offering to the Lord.

Zakkai quotes verse 16 as “Even to the morrow after the seventh week you shall number fifty days…” and he translates the Hebrew word SABBATH in that verse as WEEK. He then quotes the preceding verse (verse 15) “from the morrow after the DAY OF REST …seven WEEKS shall there be complete.” This translation is not in accordance with the Hebrew Scriptures. In the Hebrew, verse 16 should be “from the morrow of the SEVENTH SABBATH” instead of “from the morrow of the SEVENTH WEEK.” And, in verse 15, Zakkai says, “from the morrow after the day of rest…seven WEEKS shall be complete.” In the Hebrew, it is “from the morrow after the SABBATH…there shall be seven complete SABBATHS” and Zakkai changes SABBATH to “the day of rest” and seven complete Sabbaths to the “SEVENTH WEEK.” In typical Pharisee action he, like the Septuagint, rewords SABBATH to WEEK as needed to arrive at the conclusion that the day after the weekly Sabbath was not always the day the waving of the Omer.

Gemara

The Gemara explains: How so, i.e., how can one reconcile these two verses? Here, the verse that mentions seven complete weeks, is referring to a year when the festival of Passover occurs on Shabbat.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 8
This is a statement but the Hebrew Scriptures do not state this distinction. If you read Leviticus 23:11 in context you will see no reference that verse applies only to when the festival of Passover occurs on Shabbat. There is no scriptural support for that distinction. It is plain and straight forward. In the Hebrew it is seven complete Sabbaths, not weeks. Why is this distinction important? Because the correct way to count toward Shavuot is to begin the day AFTER the weekly Sabbath. That is day one. Then, count seven Sabbaths. The first weekly Sabbath after the waving of the Omer will not only be the seventh day but it will also be the first of the seven Sabbath countdown toward Shavuot. The second Sabbath would be the 14th day, the third Sabbath would be the 21st day, and so forth. The seventh Sabbath would be the 49th day and the next day, the day AFTER the seventh Sabbath, would be the 50th day, Shavuot. In Greek it is called Pentecost, meaning “fiftieth”. There is no scriptural support for the assertion that Leviticus 23:15 only applies when the festival of Passover (Nisan 15) occurs on Shabbat.

Gemara

In such a year, the fifty-day period between Passover and Shavuot contains seven complete weeks, from Sunday through Shabbat. There, the verse that defines the period as fifty days, is referring to a year when the festival of Passover occurs in the middle of the week.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 9
It doesn’t matter if the festival of Passover (Nisan 15) occurs in the middle of the week, the wave sheaf was waved on the day after the first Sabbath of Passover weekend. That’s right, even if the Passover meal was on Wednesday after sunset, the waving of the Omer would occur on the day after the following weekly Sabbath, Sunday.

Gemara

The Gemara presents a mnemonic for several other proofs in refutation of the claim of the Boethusians: That of Rabbi Eliezer: Number; Rabbi Yehoshua: Count; Rabbi Yishmael: From the omer; Rabbi Yehuda: Below.

Rabbi Eliezer says: The previous proof is not necessary, as the verse states: “Seven weeks you shall number for you; from the time the sickle is first put to the standing grain you shall begin to number seven weeks” (Deuteronomy 16:9).

SABER TRUTH TIGER 10
Here the rabbi is correct. In Deuteronomy 16 it is specified as “seven weeks” but if you take the supplemental verses in Leviticus 23 it is “seven Sabbaths”. So, the seven weeks are not seven Wednesday’s or seven Fridays. But seven Sabbaths. There is no contradiction when properly understood. The rabbis lay ahold of Deuteronomy and noted it said “seven WEEKS” and then jumped to the conclusion that the seven weeks did not necessarily mean seven SABBATHS. The Sadducees realized Deuteronomy taught “seven WEEKS” but they also knew Leviticus 23 taught SEVEN SABBATHS so they held to that belief. Seven Sabbaths and Seven Weeks are not incompatible if you remember to count seven Saturdays and not seven Wednesdays or seven Fridays.

Gemara

The term “for you” indicates that the counting of the weeks is dependent upon the decision of the court, as they know how to calculate the new months, upon which the date of the Festival depends. Therefore, when the verse states: “The morrow after the day of rest [hashabbat]”

SABER TRUTH TIGER 11
The verse does not state “The morrow after the day of rest” it states “The morrow after the SABBATH.” Some claim that all Sabbaths are rest days and so there is no contradiction here. It is true that all Sabbaths are rest days. However, not all rest days are Sabbaths. So to translate “Sabbath” as a simple “day of rest” can, and does, lead to confusion. Under the “day of rest” one can conclude that Nisan 15, a day of rest, Is the day which precedes the waving of the Omer. Nisan 15 is certainly a rest day but it is nowhere called a Sabbath in the Hebrew scriptures. Therefore, to claim that the day of the waving of the Omer is the day after Nisan 15 is erroneous.

Gemara

(Leviticus 23:16), it means: The morrow after the Festival, as the determination of Festivals is by the court.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 12
That is not true. It is “the morrow after the Sabbath” not “the morrow after the Festival.” The Pharisees and the rabbis continue in their error of calling Nisan 15 a Sabbath to justify their observance of the Nisan 16 wave sheaf. The rabbis followed an oral tradition that is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Sadducees followed a literal reading of Leviticus 23 in the Hebrew and therefore observed the Omer on Sunday and Shavuot on Sunday.

Gemara

This serves to exclude the interpretation that the counting starts after the Shabbat of Creation, i.e., a regular weekly Shabbat, whose counting can be performed by every person, not exclusively by the court.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 13
This is a poor excuse not to start the seven Sabbath countdown from the Sunday after the Passover meal. Every person familiar with the scripture did not need the court to determine which day the count began on. The scriptures were taught in all the synagogues of the land and everyone knew, by the time they reached adulthood, that the countdown began on the Sunday after the Passover meal. They knew Shavuot occurred on Sunday. Then the Pharisees changed the countdown from Sunday to Nisan 16.

Gemara

Citing a different proof, Rabbi Yehoshua says: The Torah said to count days, as it is stated: “A month of days” (Numbers 11:20), and then sanctify the month with offerings. And the Torah also said to count days from Passover and then sanctify the festival of Shavuot with offerings, as it is stated: “You shall count fifty days” (Leviticus 23:16). From this comparison, one can learn that just as the start of the counting toward the new month is known even before it comes, as one begins counting toward the following new month on the first day of a month, so too the start of the counting toward the festival of Shavuot is known even before it comes, as one begins counting toward Shavuot on a fixed day of the month.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 14
The countdown toward Shavuot does NOT begin on a fixed day of the month (Nisan 16 according to Pharisee reckoning). The countdown begins on the Sunday after the Passover meal every year and that is not on a fixed day of the month.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Part Two of the Omer Shavuot Controversy

Gemara

The Gemara elaborates: And if you say that the festival of Shavuot always occurs the day after Shabbat, how is the counting toward Shavuot known based on what came before it? If the occurrence of Shavuot depends upon a Shabbat, there would be no specific date after Passover upon which the counting occurs yearly.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 15
IF you know that it is Nisan 15 as you eat the Passover meal, then why wouldn’t you be able to figure out when Shavuot would fall on a Sunday fifty days after the day following the weekly Sabbath? It is true that there would be no specific date after Passover upon which the counting occurs yearly because the beginning of the countdown would occur on a different date in Nisan every year due to the floating date. But one thing you would know is the countdown would begin on a Sunday.

Gemara

Rabbi Yishmael says there is another refutation of the Boethusian interpretation. The Torah said: Bring the omer offering on the festival on Passover and the two loaves on Shavuot. Just as there, with regard to the offering on the festival of Shavuot, the two loaves are brought at the beginning of the Festival, as it lasts only one day, so too here, with regard to the festival of Passover, the omer must be brought at the beginning of the Festival. If the omer were to always be brought on a Sunday, this might occur at the end of the festival of Passover. For example, if Passover started on a Monday, the omer would be brought only on the next Sunday, at the end of the Festival.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 16
This is true. But it is not a problem. If the Passover started on a Monday, then the Omer would be waved on the Sunday, the last day of the Feast. However, the scripture does not indicate anywhere this would be a problem. The Hebrew Scriptures plainly teach that the waving of the Omer occurs on the day after the Sabbath. Both Sadducees and Pharisees agree the waving of the Omer happens AFTER the Passover meal so even if Nisan 15 occurred on a Monday then the Omer would not be waved until the next Sunday, seven days from Nisan 15.

Gemara

Rabbi Yehuda ben Beteira says there is yet another refutation. It is stated “shabbat” above (Leviticus 23:15), with regard to starting the counting of the omer, and it is also stated “shabbat” below (Leviticus 23:16), with regard to the commencement of the festival of Shavuot. Just as there, with regard to the festival of Shavuot, it is stated: “Even until the morrow after the seventh week [hashabbat] you shall number fifty days,”

SABER TRUTH TIGER 17
Again, the “seventh week” is the “seventh Sabbath”. Keep that in mind. Yes, Deuteronomy 16 states it is seven weeks but Leviticus 23 states it is seven Sabbaths. So, if the wave sheaf occurs on a Sunday, the day after the first weekly Sabbath AFTER the Passover meal (Nisan 15) then there is no contradiction.

Gemara

and the word shabbat is referring to the beginning of the Festival

SABER TRUTH TIGER 18
Nisan 15 is not a Sabbath so it could not possibly be referring to Nisan 15 at the beginning of the Festival. Nisan 15 is a rest day, a holy convocation, but it is not a Sabbath so this point fails.

Gemara

and it immediately follows the end of the seventh week; so too here, with regard to the bringing of the omer, the word shabbat means Festival,

SABER TRUTH TIGER 19
No, it doesn’t logically follow because the Passover Festival was NOT a Sabbath. Period,

Gemara

so that the omer offering immediately follows the beginning of the Festival, on the second day of Passover.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 20
This may have been the oral tradition, but it is not scriptural. Nisan 15 is not and never was a Sabbath in the Hebrew Scriptures, especially if you trust Yahweh as your source.

Gemara

According to the Boethusians, the commencement of the counting could start well after the beginning of Passover. For example, if Passover occurs on a Sunday, the counting of the omer would start only the following Sunday.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 21
So? What does that prove? If Nisan 15 fell on a Sunday, then the waving of the Omer would begin on the following Sunday, the day AFTER the Festival ends. This is a most inconvenient fact, but the bottom line is it is scriptural. It is important to note, that scripturally nowhere does it state in the Hebrew Scriptures is it stated that the wave sheaf must occur during the Festival.

Gemara

The Sages taught in a baraita: The verse states: “And you shall count for you from the morrow after the day of rest [hashabbat], from the day that you brought the sheaf of the waving; seven weeks there shall be complete” (Leviticus 23:15). The phrase: “And you shall count for you,” teaches that the mitzva of counting is not a communal obligation. Rather, there should be a counting by each and every person.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 22
This is not a scriptural mandate, it is an oral tradition with no basis in scripture.

Gemara

The baraita continues: From the morrow after the day of rest [hashabbat], this means from the morrow after the festival of Passover.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 23
This oral tradition states that it means from the morrow after Nisan 15 but that is not true. Nowhere in scripture, Hebrew Scripture, is this taught. Leviticus 23:11 is clear. It is the day AFTER the Sabbath, not the first day of Unleavened Bread like the Septuagint interprets.

Gemara

Or perhaps this is not the meaning of the verse, but rather it means after the Shabbat of Creation, i.e., Sunday. Rabbi Yosei bar Yehuda says: This cannot be correct, as the verse states: “Even until the morrow after the seventh week you shall number fifty days” (Leviticus 23:16). This teaches that all the countings that you count shall be only fifty days.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 24
I fail to see how Rabbi Yosei bar Yehuda makes his point how the Sunday wave sheaf cannot be correct.

Gemara

Rabbi Yosei bar Yehuda elaborates: And if you say that the clause: “From the morrow after the day of rest [hashabbat],” is referring to the Shabbat of Creation, sometimes you will find a count of fifty-one days from the first day of Passover, which is the date that the count began the previous year, until Shavuot; and sometimes you will find fifty-two, or fifty-three, or fifty-four, or fifty-five, or fifty-six. For example, in one year, Passover occurs on Shabbat, and the counting of the omer would start on Sunday, the sixteenth of Nisan, and Shavuot would occur fifty days later. Another year, Passover occurs on a Friday, and the counting starts on Sunday, then the date that Shavuot will occur this year is fifty-one days from the sixteenth of Nisan. If Passover occurs on a Thursday, and the counting begins on the following Sunday, Shavuot will occur fifty-two days from the sixteenth of Nisan.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 25
Yes, this is all true. So what? It doesn’t change the plain meaning of scripture. There will not always be exactly 50 days after Nisan 15 under the Sadducean reckoning. This does not mean it is wrong. It is wrong to complain about a brute fact. It is a brute fact that there is not a fixed date for Shavuot but there is a fixed day of the week for it.

Here is a link to Part Two:

WordPress.com

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

The Controversy of Omer and Shavuot Part Three

MENACHOT 66a

Menachot 66a:1

as the verse states: “Seven weeks you shall number for you; from the time the sickle is first put to the standing grain you shall begin to number seven weeks”...

www.sefaria.org

Gemara

Rabbi Yehuda ben Beteira says: That proof is not necessary,

66a

Gemara

as the verse states: “Seven weeks you shall number for you; from the time the sickle is first put to the standing grain you shall begin to number seven weeks” (Deuteronomy 16:9). By using the term “for you,” the verse indicates that the counting of the weeks is dependent upon the decision of the court, as they know how to calculate the new months. This serves to exclude the possibility that the counting starts after the Shabbat of Creation, whose counting can be performed by every person, not only the court.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 26
Ok, so let’s say the Jewish Supreme Court (the Sanhedrin) must do the counting for the people, aren’t they still required by scripture to begin the 50-day count toward Shavuot from a Sunday? Of course if you are a Pharisee, then it would begin from Nisan 16, but scripturally speaking, the countdown should begin from the first Sunday of the Days of Unleavened Bread.

Gemara

Rabbi Yosei says that the verse: “And you shall count for you from the morrow after the day of rest [hashabbat]” (Leviticus 23:15), means from the morrow after the festival of Passover.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 27
No, that is not true. It begins on Sunday, the day after the first Sabbath following the Passover meal.

Gemara

Do you say it means from the morrow after the festival of Passover, or is it only referring to from the morrow after Shabbat of Creation, i.e., Sunday? You can say in response: Is it stated: From the morrow after the day of rest [hashabbat] that is during Passover? No, it is stated only: “From the morrow after the day of rest [hashabbat].”

SABER TRUTH TIGER 28
Yes, the Gemara has it right. There is not a specific verse in the Bible that says the sabbath that precedes the waving of the Omer must fall within the Days of Unleavened Bread. A lot of people never think of this, but it is true. However, time has proven that the Israelites and the Jews began observing the Omer sometime during the Days of Unleavened Bread. If someone wants to make an issue of this, that is their right as they certainly have a good point.

Gemara

Considering that the entire year is full of Shabbatot, go and try to examine to which Shabbat the verse is referring.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 29
This is a fair challenge. Where in the Bible does it say that the Sabbath referred to is the one that falls during the Days of Unleavened Bread? It doesn’t. But that has been the tradition dating back into antiquity, perhaps during the Babylonian Captivity as some believe.

Gemara

How does one know which Shabbat this means? Clearly, then, this “day of rest” is the Festival, not Shabbat.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 30
The Gemara asks “How does one know which Shabbat this means?” Then, it jumps to a conclusion and says, “Clearly (?), then, this “day of rest” is the Festival, not Shabbat. This is an erroneous conclusion. The Hebrew itself calls if the “Sabbath” in Leviticus 23:11 and not the First Day of the Feast as the Septuagint claims. Just because the Bible doesn’t specify which Sabbath does not make it logically follow that the Festival (Nisan 15) is the Sabbath referred to. Nisan 15, the Festival, is NOT a Sabbath. The Nisan 15 Sabbath is a false teaching of the Pharisees and rabbis.

Gemara

Rabbi Yosei cites another proof: And furthermore, it is stated “shabbat” below, with regard to the festival of Shavuot (Leviticus 23:16), and it is also stated “shabbat” above (Leviticus 23:15), with regard to starting the counting of the omer. Just as below, with regard to the festival of Shavuot, it is stated: “Even until the morrow after the seventh week [shabbat] you shall number fifty days,” and the word shabbat is referring to a time at the beginning of the Festival; so too here, with regard to the bringing of omer, the word shabbat means Festival, and the counting starts near the beginning of the Festival, on the second day of Passover. According to the Boethusians, sometimes the commencement of the counting is well after the start of Passover.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 31
No, this is incorrect. Festival (Nisan 15) is NOT a Sabbath. This point cannot be pressed too much. The scripture no where teaches that the waving of the Omer has to be at the beginning of the Festival. It can be later in the Festival, like the last day of the Festival or even the day AFTER the Festival. There is no scripture that states otherwise. The bottom line is there is no proof that Festival (Nisan 15) is the Sabbath.

Gemara

The baraita continues: Rabbi Shimon ben Elazar says there is yet another proof: One verse states: “Six days you shall eat unleavened bread” (Deuteronomy 16:8), and one verse states: “Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread” (Exodus 12:15). How can these texts be reconciled?

SABER TRUTH TIGER 32
There is no contradiction. Let’s look at the one in Exodus first:

Exodus 12:

15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, but on the first day you shall [a]remove leaven from your houses; for whoever eats anything leavened from the first day until the seventh day, that [b]person shall be cut off from Israel.

This text says one should eat unleavened bread for seven days. The meaning is plain. If one doesn’t eat unleavened bread for the whole seven days that person should be cut off from Israel. Now, let’s take Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 16:

4 For seven days no leaven shall be seen with you in all your territory, and none of the flesh which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall remain overnight until morning. 5 You are not allowed to sacrifice the Passover in any of your [b]towns which the Lord your God is giving you; 6 but at the place where the Lord your God chooses to establish His name, you shall sacrifice the Passover in the evening at sunset, at the time that you came out of Egypt. 7 You shall cook and eat it in the place which the Lord your God chooses. In the morning you are to return to your tents. 8 Six days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a solemn assembly to the Lord your God; you shall do no work on it.

See that? Deuteronomy 16:4 repeats Exodus in forbidding the eating of Unleavened Bread for seven days. That is solid. Then, verse eight says you shall eat unleavened bread for six days before assembling themselves on the seventh day of the Days of Unleavened Bread. There is no contradiction between Exodus and Deuteronomy. They both forbid eating Unleavened Bread for seven days. Then, in Deuteronomy 16:8 the writer refers to eating unleavened bread for six days because he is getting ready to introduce something that should be done on the seventh day. He has already made it clear that no one was to eat unleavened bread for seven days so there was no need to mention it on day seven when he commanded the solemn assembly.

Gemara

Rabbi Shimon ben Elazar explains that there is matza that you are unable to eat for all seven days of Passover, due to the prohibition of harvesting and eating from the new crop of grain that ripened before Passover until after the omer offering. But you are able to eat that same matza for six days, although it is from the new crop, as it is permitted after the bringing of the omer offering on the second day of Passover. This resolution of the verses is possible only if the omer offering is brought on the sixteenth of Nisan, not on any other date.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 33
As stated above, there is no contradiction. It doesn’t matter what day the Omer is, you are not to eat leavened bread until the seven days are over.

Gemara

Rabbi Shimon ben Elazar clarifies another two verses that deal with the counting of the omer: “And you shall count for you from the morrow after the day of rest, from the day that you brought the sheaf [omer] of the waving; seven weeks there shall be complete; even until the morrow after the seventh week you shall number fifty days; and you shall present a new meal offering to the Lord” (Leviticus 23:15–16). One might have thought that although one must harvest and bring the omer meal offering on the second day of Passover, the sixteenth of Nisan, he may start to count the omer from whenever he wishes after that day.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 34
Where does scripture teach this? Or, is this an oral tradition too? The scripture says that the Omer was to be waved on the day AFTER the SABBATH. That’s not complicated folks. If you believe the Hebrew Scriptures are inspired of Yahweh you must decide if you are going to take the plain teaching of scripture and not a tradition of man, an oral tradition or a erroneous translation (interpretation) of the Septuagint.

Gemara

Therefore, the verse states: “Seven weeks you shall number for you; from the time the sickle is first put to the standing grain you shall begin to number seven weeks” (Deuteronomy 16:9). This verse indicates that the counting should commence upon the reaping of the grain for the omer offering.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 35
The sickle is first put to the standing grain after sunset on Saturday Passover week. From that time one is to number seven weeks. The morning after the barley is cut it is waved before Yahweh on Sunday. There are to be counted seven weeks to Shavuot. It is plain, really.

Gemara

If one would read just this verse: “From the time the sickle is first put to the standing grain you shall begin to number,” one might have thought that one can harvest and count and then bring the omer offering whenever he wishes. Therefore, the other verse states: “From the day that you brought the sheaf of the waving…you shall number fifty days,” indicating that the counting should start on the day the omer offering is brought.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 36
The counting is indeed to begin the day of the Omer offering. Some years, that may be Nisan 16, some Nisan 17, others Nisan 19 and still others sometimes Nisan 22. This means there are times when leavened bread could be eaten on the day of the Omer. That is rare, but it happens if you count according to the Sadducee (scriptural) reckoning.

Gemara

If one would derive the halakha from this verse: “From the day that you brought the sheaf of the waving,” one might have thought that he should harvest and count and bring the omer offering during the day, not on the night of the sixteenth of Nisan. Therefore, the verse states: “From the day that you brought the sheaf of the waving; seven weeks there shall be complete.” When do you find that there are seven complete weeks? You find it at the time when you begin to count from the evening. Only if the counting commences at night, at the start of the sixteenth of Nisan, will the seven weeks of counting be complete, without missing that first evening.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 37
Yes, one can begin counting toward Shavuot at sunset Saturday because sunset Saturday begins the first day of the Jewish week. So, if one begins his count at sunset Saturday, or whether he begins Sunday morning, the count is still 50 calendar days until Shavuot.

Gemara

If so, one might have thought that all of the rites of the omer should be at night, and therefore one should harvest and bring the omer offering and start to count at night. Therefore the verse states: From the day that you brought the sheaf of the waving. How can these texts be reconciled? Does one start at night or in the day? Harvesting and counting should be performed at night, and the bringing of the omer offering is during the day.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 38
Yes, the harvesting of the Omer is at night. Just after the sun sets on the end of the Sabbath. The “day” of the Sunday is to be the starting point of the seven Sabbath countdown toward Shavuot so if you begin your countdown on the post-sunset portion of the first day of the week you still end up observing Shavuot as soon as nightfall on a Saturday night seven weeks later.

Gemara

§ The Gemara has presented two baraitot with ten proofs between them countering the Boethusian claim that the counting of the omer begins on the Sunday after Passover. Rava said: For all of the suggested proofs there is a possible refutation except for those of the two last tanna’im cited, both in the first baraita and in the second baraita, for which there is no refutation.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 39
Baraitot are oral quotes or teachings and we will see whether or not they can be refuted.

Gemara

Rava elaborates: If one seeks to prove from that which Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai said, that there is a contradiction between two verses, as one indicates that there is an obligation to count fifty days and another that the obligation is to count seven weeks, perhaps this contradiction can be resolved in accordance with the statement of Abaye. As Abaye said: It is a mitzva to count days, and it is also a mitzva to count seven weeks. When one counts, he should track both the number of days and the number of weeks.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 40
I see no problem with this. Counting the 50 days or the seven weeks (sabbaths) plus one are both acceptable ways of doing things like this. Go for it.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Controversy of the Omer and Shavuot Part Four

Gemara

Rabbi Eliezer derived that the counting is dependent upon the court, not the individual. Therefore, he claimed that when the verse mentions shabbat it must be referring to the Festival, not a regular Shabbat, which does not require a court for its determination.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 41
The count does not refer to the Festival. The Festival is not a Sabbath. It is a simple rest day. Just because the rabbi says a regular Shabbat does not require a count for its determination doesn’t mean that suddenly Nisan 15 becomes a Sabbath. The weekly Sabbath, all off them, require a seven day count from Sabbath to Sabbath. The rabbi’s argument fails.

Gemara

Rabbi Yehoshua derived that just as the counting and sanctifying of the New Moon is performed at a distinct time, so too the counting of the omer and start of Shavuot that follows must occur on a specific date.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 42
The argument doesn’t logically follow. The waving of the Omer is not on a fixed date. It is one of two holy convocation in the Hebrew Scriptures that does not have a fixed date. Why must the waving of the Omer have a fixed date just because the other six holy convocations and the weekly Sabbath have a fixed date? It doesn’t logically follow.

Gemara

Rava refutes both of these claims: If the proof is from that which Rabbi Eliezer and Rabbi Yehoshua said, granted that their proofs successfully demonstrate that the counting should start after the Festival, not after Shabbat, but from where does one know that it is referring to the first day of the Festival? Perhaps it is referring to the last day of the Festival, i.e., the seventh day of Passover?

SABER TRUTH TIGER 43
It is true, scripturally, that the Bible does not specify the actual date that the Jews wave the Omer. The Pharisees and the rabbis follow the oral tradition, a man made tradition, and the erroneous translation (interpretation) from the Septuagint. So yes, perhaps it can refer to the last day of the Festival, or, it can occur on the weekly Sabbath AFTER the Days of Unleavened Bread as the Essenes claim.

Gemara

Rava now addresses the statements of the final two the tanna’im cited in the first baraita: With regard to the proof given by Rabbi Yishmael from the two loaves that are brought at the beginning of a Festival, and the proof mentioned by Rabbi Yehuda ben Beteira from the usage of the word shabbat in connection with Shavuot, Rava said: They have no refutation.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 44
It is obvious the Pharisees and the rabbis believed that there is no refutation to their claims but that is simply not the case. Their claims can be quite easily defeated.

Gemara

Continuing with the proofs of the tanna’im from the second baraita, Rava said: If one seeks to disprove the Boethusian claim from that which Rabbi Yosei, son of Rabbi Yehuda, said, that if the counting starts from Shabbat then Shavuot can occur anywhere from fifty to fifty-six days from the date the counting had started the previous year, I would say that perhaps the verse means fifty days excluding these six extra days.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 45
Yes, the count from the Festival (Nisan 15) to Shavuot varies from year to year but this doesn’t mean it is incorrect. It’s just the way things work out. This does not make a case for Nisan 15 being a Sabbath. It was never a Sabbath in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Septuagint in the third century BCE interpreted Leviticus 23:11 to mean the First Day of Unleavened bread to mean the Sabbath.

Gemara

Rava continues: If one seeks to prove from that which Rabbi Yehuda ben Beteira said in the second baraita, that the verse indicates that the counting is dependent upon the decision of the court, not an individual, this can too be refuted: From where does one know that it is referring to the first day of the Festival? Perhaps it is referring to the last day of the Festival, the seventh day of Passover?

SABER TRUTH TIGER 46
Again, the scriptures do not give an exact date for the waving of the Omer. We do know, however, that the first day of the Festival is NOT a Sabbath. Yes, it can be referring to the last day of the Festival, but neither the Pharisee faction or the Saducee faction claim that. Therefore,

It is a moot point. None of them believe that, so it isn’t even a point of debate. IF the Festival fell on the last day of the Festival, then why aren’t they both doing their best to observe that day instead of the days they strive to observe?

Gemara

Rava concludes: The first proof cited by Rabbi Yosei was that if the counting starts the day after a regular Shabbat then it would be impossible to determine which Shabbat is meant.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 47
Not true at all. First of all, Nisan 15 was never called Sabbath in the Hebrew Scriptures. There are only two holy convocations called Sabbath in the Hebrew Scriptures, and that is the weekly Sabbath and Yom Kippur (The Day of Atonement). They forbade ALL work and were directly called Sabbaths. The other six annual holy convocations forbade *servile* work and forbade only *servile* work. So, it would not be impossible to determine which Shabbat is meant.

Gemara

Rabbi Yosei himself saw that it is also subject to refutation, and this is why Rabbi Yosei continued and said: Furthermore, and suggested a second proof. As Rava declared, the last two proofs cited in the second baraita, the second proof provided by Rabbi Yosei and the proof of Rabbi Shimon ben Elazar, stand without refutation.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 48
You can claim they stand without refutation all you want but they have been refuted.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

On Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange Revelation Lad has essentially thrown in the towel on this debate, saying there is no need to continue further because, he says, I use tradition when it suits me and don't use it when it doesn't suit me. This is false, I accept tradition when it is true, and reject tradition when it is false. That is just common sense.

Revelation Lad wrote BHSE:
There's no point in responding because your method of debate is inconsistent. When it suits you use Scripture or tradition. When I respond to your Scripture with tradition you claim tradition is invalid. When I respond to your traditions with Scripture you say tradition matters more.
– Revelation Lad

Anyone who wants to see how this guy uses a false tradition can read it beginning with page 5 in this thread and especially the last two or three pages. Tradition is important but it is not always a valid way to argue. And just because someone has followed a tradition does not necessarily mean the tradition is true, but it can be true. Just not always. Revelation Lad refuses to reveal what day he believes the crucifixion occurred on, but I strongly suspect it is Thursday. I know he doesn't accept the 2,000-year-old Good Friday tradition which is odd because he rejects the 2,000-year-old Tradition as false while claiming the 2,000-year-old Nisan 15 tradition as true because it is 2,000 years old. it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[JSRG]

Here is a question I wish to ask. All of this debate has been regarding whether Nisan 15 was referred to as a Sabbath or not. However, there is another question.

The New Testament clearly refers to the day of the crucifixion as the Day of Preparation or Preparation Day, which was basically the way Jews referred to Friday as I understand it (actually, the modern Greek word for Friday comes from the word preparation). Is there any evidence that this was ever used to refer to any day other than Friday?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Here is a question I wish to ask. All of this debate has been regarding whether Nisan 15 was referred to as a Sabbath or not. However, there is another question.

The New Testament clearly refers to the day of the crucifixion as the Day of Preparation or Preparation Day, which was basically the way Jews referred to Friday as I understand it (actually, the modern Greek word for Friday comes from the word preparation). Is there any evidence that this was ever used to refer to any day other than Friday?

Yes. The day Jesus died on was a Friday and it was Nisan 14. Therefore, not only was it the Preparation (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) but it was also the Preparation of the Passover (John). When I was in the Worldwide Church of God in the 70s and 80s my family "prepared" for the Sabbath by doing all the work that needed to be done to make sure our house was clean and neat and the Sabbath. I think we cooked Saturday's meal on Friday too but I don't remember. On Nisan 14 we would prepare for the Passover by cleaning our homes of all leaven, vacuuming, sweeping, moving furniture around and cooking. It was to prepare for the Feast, the days of Unleavened Bread, I was taught that Preparation could be used for Friday or Nisan 14. The year Jesus died Nisan 14 was a Friday and the day before the days of Unleavened Bread.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Saber Tiger
The Feast of First Fruits does not always fall on Easter Sunday, so, Easter should not be remembered on the Feast of First Fruits. Easter is a Christian holiday and Feast of First Fruits is a Jewish holiday. Easter always falls on a Sunday, First Fruits does not.

Revelation Truth Teller
Easter became a Christian holiday. Initially it was a remembrance those who were truly Jews

Before I respond to some of the things in your latest response I have a question. As I was drinking from your apple-orange blender, something didn't sit right (ha ha).

If you are concerned with Biblical terminology and correct use, why do you say the crucifixion occurred on Friday, a pagan term which honors a pagan God is not in the Bible and wasn't in use until hundreds of years after the crucifixion?

Friday is a secular term, not a biblical term. In the USA, we use days of the week named after Gods and months of the year named after Gods. They are not demanded to be worshipped. We are free to use these names because it "does no harm" to do so. It does not affect the doctrines of the Bible at all. But, if you are so concerned about using names of days of the week and months of the year, do you not use these names in your daily life and in correspondence with others? But, instead of Friday, just think Nisan 14, the sixth day of the Jewish week.

It seems to me you should describe the most important day in history with a Biblical term, if in fact correct use and Biblical terminology is important.

Ok, so, Nisan 14, the sixth day of the Jewish week.

On the other hand, if you're fine with Friday, doesn't that show you're really not that committed to what you claim is important and you are fine with traditions which are horribly inaccurate?

No.

You threw in the towel and now you want to debate again? You keep accusing me of not debating properly and yet you are all over the field in your debate performance. As far as I am concerned this debate is over. You totally ignore my posts, and I don't take kindly to that. Anyone reading this should go to pages 11 and 12 of this thread and read our exchanges for themselves. Or, they can start with page 5 or 6 and they will see for themselves who prevailed. I am finished with you. It's over.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I believe your understanding would improve if you started speaking of the most important day in history properly. Nisan 14 is not the sixth day of the week. It might have been that year but it varies from year to year. BTW, if it was the sixth day of the week that year, then Nisan 15 would be the Sabbath. But the fundamental issue is the death was on the annual calendar and there was no connection to the day of the week.

The resurrection was also on the annual calendar, the day after the weekly Sabbath. Using the term "Friday" is nonsense, if you are concerned with using Biblical terms accurately.

The moment you begin to think Biblically you will admit the crucifixion and resurrection were placed on God's annual calendar and the day of the week is immaterial.

Friday is meaningless. Passover, Firstfruits, Unleavened Bread, Nisan 15, Nisan 21, and weekly Sabbath are the only terms you should be using...if Biblical terms matter.

Your response follows the pattern of picking and choosing. A tradition of Friday which is completely unbiblical is ok because it is essential to your position. Of course the idea the first disciples would remember the crucifixion on Good Friday not Nisan 14, highlights the absurdity of mixing of tradition and Scripture.

Man was created on the 6th day. Yeshua was destroyed on the cross on the 6th day. He rested in the tomb on the 7th day Sabbath and rose a resurrected man on the 1st day of a new creation. Also, if the shroud of Turin IS real, it also proves that Yeshua was NOT in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights, but between 30 and 40 hours (Dr. Bruno Barberis, Associate Professor of Mathematical Physics and Director of the Int center of Sindonology of Turin). So from Friday sundown to say midnight on Saturday night (already the 1st day of the week), it was around 30 hours or so in the grave but definitely NOT 72 hours. Dr. Barberis says that decomposition would already have occurred after that and none was seen on the shroud.

 

[Revelation Lad]

Man was created on the 6th day. Yeshua was destroyed on the cross on the 6th day. He rested in the tomb on the 7th day Sabbath and rose a resurrected man on the 1st day of a new creation. Also, if the shroud of Turin IS real, it also proves that Yeshua was NOT in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights, but between 30 and 40 hours (Dr. Bruno Barberis, Associate Professor of Mathematical Physics and Director of the Int center of Sindonology of Turin). So from Friday sundown to say midnight on Saturday night (already the 1st day of the week), it was around 30 hours or so in the grave but definitely NOT 72 hours. Dr. Barberis says that decomposition would already have occurred after that and none was seen on the shroud.

Matthew 12:40 - For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

John 19:40 - Then they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.

When confronted with what men believe happened and what the Bible says happened, I choose to resolve differences based on Scripture.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

For the record:
1. After I said I was done, you posted something on the Biblical Hermeneutics site
2. A rule of debate I follow is to meet the other where they are at. When you got personal, I responded in kind.
3. Early on I acknowledged one of your premises: Nisan 15 does not meet the literal criteria to be called a Sabbath.
4. From the beginning I have said there was a tradition of calling Nisan 15 a Sabbath.
5. You portrayed me as two-faced by pulling an answer where I said Nisan 15 was not a Sabbath. But, much like your debating tactics, that was an apples to oranges comparison. That question was focused on the Biblical position, which, as I have said. I agree with you. But the question which spurred this debate was different in that it asked whether it was possible to call Nisan 15 a Sabbath. Obviously the answer is yes. The LXX did so; Josephus did so; the Pharisees did so; the Jews continue to do so.
6. But despite the historical reality of tradition with respect to this day....
7. The final straw was your ridiculous position regarding Friday, obviously a tradition which is foreign to the Bible and completely at odds with the OT and completely at odds with Judaism the and now.

Matthew 12:40 - For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

John 19:40 - Then they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.

When confronted with what men believe happened and what the Bible says happened, I choose to resolve differences based on Scripture.

I don't think I know what you are talking about. Maybe I don't remember. Yeshua used the story of Yonah as a comparison. I could also bring up that He also said "in 3 days" and "on the 3rd day"...so you take one comparison quote and discount the others....I made my point.

 

[Revelation Lad]

I don't think I know what you are talking about. Maybe I don't remember. Yeshua used the story of Yonah as a comparison. I could also bring up that He also said "in 3 days" and "on the 3rd day"...so you take one comparison quote and discount the others....I made my point.

That reply was to the comment to Saber Truth.

The verses cited are to the assessment from the Shroud of Turin. Jesus said He would be in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights. 30 hours is not enough time. Also the body was wrapped in linen strips, not a single shroud.

 

[prodromos]

That reply was to the comment to Saber Truth.

The verses cited are to the assessment from the Shroud of Turin. Jesus said He would be in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights. 30 hours is not enough time. Also the body was wrapped in linen strips, not a single shroud.

3 days and 3 nights is synecdoche, otherwise you make Jesus statement that He would rise on the third day to be a lie.

 

[Revelation Lad]

3 days and 3 nights is synecdoche, otherwise you make Jesus statement that He would rise on the third day to be a lie.

Interesting claim. Do you likewise understand three days as a synecdoche? Is it possible to put together 3 days and 3 nights and rise on the third day?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That reply was to the comment to Saber Truth.

The verses cited are to the assessment from the Shroud of Turin. Jesus said He would be in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights. 30 hours is not enough time. Also the body was wrapped in linen strips, not a single shroud.

Matthew and Mark record that Joseph of Arimathea wrapped His body in a linen shroud and placed it in a new tomb. It was about 30 hours as I said from the research of the shroud.

 

[Revelation Lad]

Matthew and Mark record that Joseph of Arimathea wrapped His body in a linen shroud and placed it in a new tomb. It was about 30 hours as I said from the research of the shroud.

So John was wrong?

 

[prodromos]

So John was wrong?

John says Christ died and was buried before sundown on Friday, and had already risen before dawn on Sunday. That lines up with 30 hours.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So John was wrong?

Wrong about what. John records "othoniois". Depends on your definition and meaning of that word.

 

[Revelation Lad]

Wrong about what. John records "othoniois". Depends on your definition and meaning of that word.

There are two words used. σινδών is singular and is in Matthew, Mark, and Luke; ὀθόνιον is plural and is in John and Luke. Luke uses both words. σινδών is used in describing the removal of the body and ὀθόνιον is used describing what the disciples find after the resurrection.

The fact Luke uses both terms demonstrates there are two different types of linen clothes used. One was used in the process of removing the body; the other in the burial. A full sheet like the Shroud of Turin would be appropriate in removing the body and carrying it to the tomb, or place where it was prepared for burial. This would enable all carrying the body to avoid touching it. Also there may be a consideration for modesty: covering the naked body.

The strips, plural, used for burial are different.

The Shroud of Turin, if authentic, is the cloth used to carry the body from cross to tomb. So it would not be useful as an object to gauge the amount of time in the tomb.