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Jinc, in our church(LCMS), there is a cross over the very simple altar table, no crucifix. There is a crucifix on the back wall of the sanctuary, but I didn't even notice that for a long time. No one kisses anything in the service. Only the pastor makes the sign of the cross, at various points in the service.
One reason we were so comfortable in this congregation was the absence of roman gestures/fittings. I think you'll find a broad range of practice in the LCMS, some very roman, some almost reformed. You should be able to find a congregation that suits.
Jinc, in our church(LCMS), there is a cross over the very simple altar table, no crucifix. There is a crucifix on the back wall of the sanctuary, but I didn't even notice that for a long time. No one kisses anything in the service. Only the pastor makes the sign of the cross, at various points in the service.
One reason we were so comfortable in this congregation was the absence of roman gestures/fittings. I think you'll find a broad range of practice in the LCMS, some very roman, some almost reformed. You should be able to find a congregation that suits.
Does your pastor bow and kiss the altar at the procession or the Bible after reading the Gospel? The altar for Lutherans, represents the Christ who shed His Body and Blood.
Years ago I attended several LCMS schools in the Midwest and remember these customs in the chapels [Valparaiso, Ft Wayne, St Louis]. I agree that our churches could be nothing more than an empty space and Christ is there. Believing in the Real Presence shapes our understanding and posture.
I'm sure the LCMS missal include the Good Friday Liturgy, by the way.
So, with respect, you may be missing the point on the idea of conciliar. Accepting a certain number of the ecumenical councils is pretty much part of being a Christian, the question is which ones and what bits. Disagree? Nicaea. Canon formation. Etc.
The thing is, you have consensus with someone based on your convictions. Unless, of course, you're the only member of your church, and you hold that only you can properly interpret Scripture (nota bene: I am not accusing you of this!). The idea is to interpret Scripture in community, and we've all got certain lenses through which we read it. You can't do away with tradition entirely.
Asserting that Elvira is more important because it is older is unfortunately a fallacy- it's the appeal to antiquity.
It's not a matter of majority opinion, either. If that were the case, we'd all be Arians. Even regarding the formation of the canon - you've pretty much got to have some view of the role of the Holy Spirit in doctrinal developments.
As for what the apostles believed, we certainly hope that we've got a decent idea of oral apostolic tradition as well as the written records. Early church representations of Christ were a controversy, true. The earliest surviving was in the early 200s, I think, and the famous Good Shepherd one is also, I think, 3rd century. So you are really only a few generations away. The point is, if you believe that the Holy Spirit is at work preserving right doctrine, then it turned out the way it did for a reason (conversely, staunch Reformed would argue that the return of the prohibition is the work of the Spirit. I grant that).
What matters is who we are in community with, and why, because that goes a long way toward determining our hermeneutic - Luther's catechism treats the Ten Commandments, to be sure. I get how certain ways of looking at things can make one pull up short when transitioning traditions. The issue is a change in how we interpret Scripture, and well, everything, really. Everybody does it, we just become really aware of it when we bump up against each other like this.
Oh, and there can't be another "ecumenical council" with everyone involved because the RCC wouldn't let people play - no apostolic succession of bishops. And we'd probably all be RCC anyway, if they hadn't tied their hands with Trent (seriously, this is a huge problem for the RCC, they'd really like to go back on some of that).
I hope this doesn't come off as aggressive, it's not meant to be - I'm just trying to pack a lot in a small space.
Jinc, in our church(LCMS), there is a cross over the very simple altar table, no crucifix. There is a crucifix on the back wall of the sanctuary, but I didn't even notice that for a long time. No one kisses anything in the service. Only the pastor makes the sign of the cross, at various points in the service.
One reason we were so comfortable in this congregation was the absence of roman gestures/fittings. I think you'll find a broad range of practice in the LCMS, some very roman, some almost reformed. You should be able to find a congregation that suits.
Hi All,
I've come even closer to Lutheranism, but one of the trouble areas I have had lately is with displaying Christ in worship. I think there are a number of problems with this, and I am hoping you all can provide me with some good reasons why we ought to do it. My major issues with it are this:
1. I worry that although people don't typically worship it per se, they do tend to show a higher level of respect toward than they would most other images, and this could be, in a sense, a minor form of worship. In the Greek OT, there is no distinction between levels of respect you can give within the context of worship. I guess I just worry that by having it, people could be drawn to it in a way that makes it a sort of idol.
2. We don't know what Jesus looked like, and if we display a picture of Christ and direct our attention to it, we are really directing our attention in worship to something that isn't even accurate. Not only isn't it accurate, it's someone else up there other than Christ...and this makes me feel uncomfortable in light of the Ten Commandments.
3. And this is the thing that makes me feel most uncomfortable: From the research I have done, it appears as though many early Christians were opposed to any images of humans in church at all and virtually all Christians of the first three centuries practiced Christianity without pictures of Christ. All the sources I can find addressing this issue indicate that Christians were totally opposed to the practice. Although tradition is not authoritative like scripture is, this issue is complicated because the Ten Commandments does warn us about worshipping or serving pictures and tells us not to make images of God...And then we see that the earliest Christians seemed to understand this as a prohibition against making images of Christ. Yet, today, Lutherans seem ok with the practice.
Let me be clear: I am not a believer in the Regulative Principle of Worship, but I do worry about this practice of displaying Christ in an inaccurate, 3-d form that could conflict with the prohibitions of the Bible and definitely seems to violate what most Christians believed in the first 300 years or so after Christ.
Help on this?
Making the sign of the cross is not "Roman". Luther specifically instructs us to make the sign of the cross each morning and evening at prayers and also says that it is appropriate at other times in the small and large catechisms.
The late antiqute Jewish imagery at Sepphoris, Sardis, and Dura Europos, and the early Christian imagery at Dura Europos and in the Roman catacombs, seems to indicate that there were both Christians and Jews who were happy representing the human form and in particular, Christians who depicted Jesus.
The real point I think you hit on is the crucifix, not because it is a representation of Jesus, but because it is three dimensional. I'm honestly not sure what to do about that. In general, I don't have a problem with it because I understand the Torah to be the divinely-inspired political constitution of Israel that merely reflects eternal laws of God in that particular culture and in that particular dispensation. At the same time, there is ancient Christian precedent forbidding three dimensional imagery (Nicaea II 787), so I remain uncertain.
That said, my church has one of the loveliest crucifixes I've ever seen and wouldn't want it taken it down for the world.
You are making an extremely large assumption here: You are assuming what I see when I look at a modern picture of Jesus is actually Jesus...and it's not. It's some artist's fabrication based on nothing. Most pictures of Jesus today aren't even depicting a Jewish man in terms of his appearance! If this idea that we must be depicting Christ or else we would be violating the First Commandment makes no sense in light of the evidence. What I mean is this: Where is there a description of Christ's appearance in the Gospels? Where is a description of his appearance in the early church? Where is there any evidence of a picture of Christ in the first 200 years of Christianity? You won't find any of that. If what you are saying is true, there would be pictures of Jesus everywhere and the Apostles would have been sure to describe his appearance! Yet, they didn't. I think that speaks volumes.
In regards to your references, I don't believe any one of them is within 180 years or so of Christ's death. In fact, most of them come 200 years after. If I'm wrong about that, I hope you'll correct me.
I'm not sure if it matters whether the image is 3d or not...Exodus 20 clearly says "any likeness" after using the term "graven images." I think it's saying graven images are wrong, but so are any likenesses, at least within the context of worship.
I've never heard a very good argument for why 2d images would be acceptable but 3d would not. I know the EO has the view, but I have never really heard the distinction explained. If you know, I'd love to know why you have more of an issue with one over the other.
Either way... It's not depicting Jesus. Is like if someone made a painting of me 200 years after I was dead and went around telling people that's me... It's not me. It's just some imaginative version.
Sometimes visuals help us look at a "Graven Image". Directories of Lutheran churches show how style evolves. The Church of Sweden is still building parishes that one can access on Wikimedia Commons.
A tasteful plain cross formation in one parish to icons in others. Is the first church the only one free of a graven image?
Those are all beautiful and magnificent. Especially the third.
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