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The Crucifix a Graven Image?

PreachersWife2004

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Someone brought up a good point elsewhere in a similar debate.

How many people who don't like the crucifixes have a manger with baby Jesus not in it?

I'd be willing to bet, not many.

I have a picture of what Jesus looks like in my head. If I drew that, and then reflected upon that drawing daily in my prayer and worship, would it be wrong simply because my mental picture isn't what he looked like?

Of course not.

HERE is a WELS perspective on crucifixes...
 
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PreachersWife2004

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GratiaCorpusChristi said:
I have to say, though, putting a grandfather clock right at the front of the church is probably the best way to distract congregants.
Especially if it gongs during the sermon!
 
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jinc1019

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You're right about the Christian imagery; most of that is 180 or later. But the Jewish imagery is earlier, if I recall. Of course, the issue is different when God is incarnate and the God-man is being depicted, but the depiction of angels does not seem to have been an issue for Jews (even prescribed in the Torah!).



I actually really have to disagree here. On a semantic level, "likeness" is probably something like "form" (the Hebrew is temunah, and related to min, kind) in the same sense that idols are in the form of the god they represent and receive the worship on behalf of the god. On a literary level it is probably just standard Hebrew parallelism, repeating the same idea in other words.

The God's Word translation, which is a contemporary English translation meant to be readable but without being a paraphrase (and usually does an excellent job conveying the sense of any given passage), renders it thus: "Never make your own carved idols or statues that represent any creature in the sky, on the earth, or in the water. Never worship them or serve them, because I, the Lord your God, am a God who does not tolerate rivals."

And I think it is worth noting that, while Jewish tradition is aniconic when it comes to portrayals of divinity, Exodus 20 is pretty specifically speaking about depictions of creatures (including other gods) receiving worship, not depictions of God himself. It is an elaboration of the commandment to worship God alone, not a separate commandment in-and-of-itself. I'd contend that the theology behind the prohibition of imagery in worship centers around the twin reality that images receiving worship are not gods and that prior to the incarnation God has no image that can be depicted. Therefore there is nothing, prior to the incarnation, that can properly depict anything that might receive worship through imagery. But that situation can change afterward.



Essentially, I contrast the (official) theology of icons in Eastern Orthodoxy with the theology of statuary in the Ancient Near East.

Ancient Near Eastern and even Greco-Roman statuary fills in for the presence of the deity. The idols are dressed and undressed daily, bathed in perfume and oils, and, especially, actually receive the devotion and worship in place of the deity. The statue receives the worship directly, and therefore the deity is worshiped.

In Orthodox iconography, the icon itself isn't an object of worship because fundamentally it isn't an object. It is a window, and that window allows us to see into the heavenly realms or into the sacred past or into the eschatological future, and that window allows us to worship the person pictured therein (God the Son) directly. In fact, it does exactly what we do mentally do anyway: we imagine/image Christ while we worship. But an icon does that same thing in an objective, public, and communal way rather than in a private and subjective way.

Two caveats to this, though.

First, statuary isn't really a probably in-and-of-itself (obviously, since God commanded angelic statuary on the ark), but only when it is a recipient of worship or a vehicle for worship. At best, it can be a psychological aid and reminder prior (either conceptually or chronologically) to worship. In that sense a crucifix (or other statuary) may be an inducement to meditation prior to worship, but it cannot be an object of meditation or worship (as in paganism) or even a vehicle for meditation or worship (as with icons).

Second, the Eastern Orthodox have gone entirely overboard with icons, and have begun treating them as direct objects of substitutionary worship rather than as windows into heaven. Icons are washed, robed, spritzed with perfume and incense, etc., in exactly the same way pagan statues were. That is equally unacceptable.

All this goes back to the fact that I think the prohibition against three-dimensional images is primarily (1) merely a subset of the prohibition against the worship of other gods and (2) simply a consequence of the fact that prior to the incarnation God had no visible form. In fact, my reticence against statuary has less to do with Old Testament commandments than it has to do with the the fact that it somewhat falls outside the theological justification for the use of two-dimensional imagery in worship.

All really good stuff. I'll definitely think about your points carefully.
 
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jinc1019

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....but that's the whole point of stylized, non-realistic icons.

I also don't see the problem.

A crucifix is about as real as it can get! I'm not sure your point really addresses the main issue. Even if pictures of Jesus are fine in some ways because they are clearly not meant to be real depictions of him, the crucifixes I see of him seem pretty realistic.
 
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jinc1019

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There's a distinction in the Christian tradition between worship due only to God and veneration due to holy things. If you stand at attention at a national anthem, put your hand over your heart and so on, how is that any different than kissing a cross or genuflecting, as both are signs of respect?

Hi Dragon, interesting points. First, the difference between respecting secular leaders/flags, etc. is that it isn't within the context of worship. I think that's a huge difference. When you direct worship in any way toward an object, even if you're attempting to show respect to God, you are still, in some limited away, directing worship toward an object, even if it's indirectly.

Also, many Christians would disagree that we have no images of Christ at all. The EO would certainly disagree as their is a tradition that their iconic representation of Christ can be traced back to a cloth that touched Christ's head. The Shroud of Turin may also be related to this tradition. And there is a remarkable amount of similarity between all the various depictions of Christ in Christian art throughout the centuries. Perhaps it's not coincidental.

That's a fair point. But honestly, none of those traditions are very reliable. If they could be proven to be reliable, I would definitely feel more comfortable with the practice.

I believe the Torah's commandments against graven things have to do with pagan cults, which is far more than simply showing respect to an image. In the ancient world it involved religion- burning sacrifices to images inhabited by gods or spirits to win their favor or secure a covenant. It certainly can't be against artistic depictions because the Hebrews had representations of angels even in their temple in Jerusalem.

I can understand this position. I am not opposed to images in general, only images of God in worship...Because God is supposed to be worshipped.
 
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jinc1019

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Someone brought up a good point elsewhere in a similar debate.

How many people who don't like the crucifixes have a manger with baby Jesus not in it?

I'd be willing to bet, not many.

I have a picture of what Jesus looks like in my head. If I drew that, and then reflected upon that drawing daily in my prayer and worship, would it be wrong simply because my mental picture isn't what he looked like?

Of course not.

HERE is a WELS perspective on crucifixes...

Thanks for the good source! Very appreciative.

I don't believe, contrary to the teaching of the Westminster Catechism (longer, I believe) that picturing Jesus or even drawing him is wrong. I think the issue is when you put a huge statue or crucifix with Jesus fixed upon it at the center of the alter, where it is the focus of worship, and everyone, as they are worshiping God, are staring at that image. Perhaps it's just my Roman Catholic background, but seeing people bow to a statue, kiss statues, etc. has made me feel very skeptical of this practice. The point of the command in Exodus is to avoid bowing down to, serving, and worshipping an image. Whenever I have seen a crucifix of Jesus in a church, I've seen people bow to it. I think it's unavoidable some will mistreat the crucifix or any other picture of Jesus when it is displayed within the context of worship.

That's just my opinion on it. I don't think I would have a problem being in communion with people who disagree.

-Justin
 
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EvangelCatholic

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I participated in a prayer group at my parish that use art such as the crucifix or icon to help focus the members. Here's an excerpt on the material.


Pray: Living Faith in Daily Life
[A small group study on prayer]

This study has been designed for a small group of 5
to 12 people eager to grow in their life of prayer.
Although shared leadership can be an excellent gift to
advance confidence and skill within the group, a single
leader can also serve the group well. Instructions for
the leader are found in boxes throughout this
resource. The space for the study should include a
small prayer focal point; for example, a small table to
hold a candle, an icon or picture of Jesus, and/or a
hand-sized cross or crucifix.
The goal is to create an
open atmosphere where each person can share fears,
questions, and insights regarding prayer. Time for
praying together is important to widen the experience
and confidence in praying.
http://download.elca.org/ELCA Resource Repository/praybiblestudy
.pdf
 
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PreachersWife2004

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Thanks for the good source! Very appreciative.

I don't believe, contrary to the teaching of the Westminster Catechism (longer, I believe) that picturing Jesus or even drawing him is wrong. I think the issue is when you put a huge statue or crucifix with Jesus fixed upon it at the center of the alter, where it is the focus of worship, and everyone, as they are worshiping God, are staring at that image. Perhaps it's just my Roman Catholic background, but seeing people bow to a statue, kiss statues, etc. has made me feel very skeptical of this practice. The point of the command in Exodus is to avoid bowing down to, serving, and worshipping an image. Whenever I have seen a crucifix of Jesus in a church, I've seen people bow to it. I think it's unavoidable some will mistreat the crucifix or any other picture of Jesus when it is displayed within the context of worship.

That's just my opinion on it. I don't think I would have a problem being in communion with people who disagree.

-Justin

I've just always thought of it as worshipping and praising God, not the statue, but I understand where the reluctance comes from.
 
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jinc1019

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I participated in a prayer group at my parish that use art such as the crucifix or icon to help focus the members. Here's an excerpt on the material.


.pdf

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing the resource.
 
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jinc1019

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I've just always thought of it as worshipping and praising God, not the statue, but I understand where the reluctance comes from.

I don't disagree...I'm not accusing anyone of worshipping a statue. As I said before, my concern is that when we focus any attention to an object that is meant to look like God while we are in the context of worship, we are in some way not focusing on the true God, who is obviously not in any way an object. Again, I'm not sure I think this is such a vital position that I couldn't be in fellowship with those who disagree since I recognize people who do use crucifixes are not really worshipping the crucifix itself.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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Lutherans don't literally see Christ in holy Communion. We see and can now touch a small wafer/ host and dip it into the chalice. For us the very Body and Blood of the Lord. During the Eucharistic Prayer the pastor elevates the holy Elements several times, the last elevation of the host over cup a sacrifice of thanksgiving.

Things like a crucifix and statue are reminders of the Real Presence.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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If we bow and kneel before what we don't see can we not do the same before the very image of Our Lord?

Happy Christ Mass!
 

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