The Covenant is only for Israel - Not the World

[HIM]

I don't think we're going to agree on anything, thanks for the discussion.

Whether we agree or not, matters not. What has been written is what matters. And it is written that the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law are in our hearts and in our mouths that we do them. So say not in your heart bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say, the word is in our heart and in our mouth. That is the faith in which we preach that the just shall live by.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Whether we agree or not, matters not. What has been written is what matters. And it is written that the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law are in our hearts and in our mouths that we do them. So say not in your heart bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say, the word is in our heart and in our mouth. That is the faith in which we preach the just shall live by.

It is written in the latter half of James Chapter 3 that the attitude that we approach the scriptures with can greatly differ what kind of wisdom we dispense. If you are coming from a envious and bitter place, your theology cannot be correct. Note in the gospels even the devil quoted scripture. So we must always self examine and prepare beforehand.

In light of all that, there is no further need to continue the discussion.

 

[HIM]

It is written in the latter half of James Chapter 3 that the attitude that we approach the scriptures with can greatly differ what kind of wisdom we dispense. If you are coming from a envious and bitter place, your theology cannot be correct. Note in the gospels even the devil quoted scripture. So we must always self examine and prepare beforehand.

In light of all that, there is no further need to continue the discussion.

Nothing but subjective conjecture. Not even about what is written, but about what you FEEL about me. Answer the points of the post or not but don't resort to post like this that is being responded to now.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Nothing but subjective conjecture. Not even about what is written, but about what you FEEL about me.

I actually feel nothing about you. But I do detect hostility in your posts, so ending the interaction is a priority.

 

[HIM]

I actually feel nothing about you. But I do detect hostility in your posts, so ending the interaction is a priority.

More subjective conjecture about me. What you feel about me. And nothing in respect to what the topic is.

 

[Clare73]

Untrue, Galatians is explicit that the law was administered by Angels. The teachings of Jesus were based on what God the Father told Jesus the Son directly.

Jesus is the "word" that is written on our hearts, the word that became flesh. Full of grace and truth.

Actually, logos in Jn 1:1 does not mean, spoken word, it means there the Greek concept of God, the First Cause , the great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe.

Jesus never refers to himself as the Word of God, nor is he ever called the Word of God anywhere in NT apostolic teaching.
Jesus is the Word who is God, not the Word of God.

 

[Soyeong]

I disagree with the premise of your question, thus will not provide any answer to it. There are two covenants, and two sets of providence from God. The requirements of those participating in the second covenant, cannot be reached by using the providence from the first.

While we are under the New Covenant and not the Mosaic Covenant, we are nevertheless still under the same God with the same nature and therefore the same instructions for how to act in accordance with His nature, which is why the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey it (Jeremiah 31:33). God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under. For example, God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of God's righteous laws are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so any instructions that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with or against His righteousness are eternally valid. For example, it was sinful to commit adultery in Genesis 39:9 long before the Mosaic Covenant, during it, it remained sinful after it has become obsolete, and if God were to ever make a covenant where that were to change, then His righteousness would not be eternal. The only way that the New Covenant could involve doing something different would be if it were made with a different God with a different nature than the God of Israel.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

we are nevertheless still under the same God

There was change in administrative structure. Same Trinity, but all judgment was entrusted to the Son.

 

[A_Thinker]

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

God isn't making a covenant with the world, He is only making the covenant with the House of Israel/the Twelve Tribes. If the world does not change citizenship to become part of Israel, they will not be given the Holy Spirit. Also when Christ returns, he's not coming to save the world, He is returning to save Israel--and Israel only.

Jeremiah 16:14-15 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that it shall no more be said, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.’ For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.'

Matthew 24:22; Ezekiel 37:16-24

The Exodus and End Times are book ends. The entire Bible is Israel-centric; it only ever has to do with Israel and nations that come in contact with Israel. But just like during the Exodus, a great mixed multitude came out with Israel.

How does this set with people who are against the Hebrew Roots movements, or those from the past who accused Christians of Judaizing and persecuted them for it? If you're not Israel, you won't be rescued. You don't have to be blood Israel anymore, but how does one know your citizenship, except by your culture and behavior? You can't continue in man-made traditions and the culture of the world if you're an Israelite by birth or adoption. If the world doesn't recognize you as an Israelite, a Spiritual Jew, or a "Judaizer", as some mock, then it's unlikely God does as well.

Matthew 28

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[Soyeong]

Matthew 28

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Do you see Matthew 28:19-20 as being in accordance with the verses cited in the post you were responding to or as contradicting them?

 

[Guojing]

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

God isn't making a covenant with the world, He is only making the covenant with the House of Israel/the Twelve Tribes. If the world does not change citizenship to become part of Israel, they will not be given the Holy Spirit. Also when Christ returns, he's not coming to save the world, He is returning to save Israel--and Israel only.

Jeremiah 16:14-15 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that it shall no more be said, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.’ For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.'

Matthew 24:22; Ezekiel 37:16-24

The Exodus and End Times are book ends. The entire Bible is Israel-centric; it only ever has to do with Israel and nations that come in contact with Israel. But just like during the Exodus, a great mixed multitude came out with Israel.

How does this set with people who are against the Hebrew Roots movements, or those from the past who accused Christians of Judaizing and persecuted them for it? If you're not Israel, you won't be rescued. You don't have to be blood Israel anymore, but how does one know your citizenship, except by your culture and behavior? You can't continue in man-made traditions and the culture of the world if you're an Israelite by birth or adoption. If the world doesn't recognize you as an Israelite, a Spiritual Jew, or a "Judaizer", as some mock, then it's unlikely God does as well.

Just curious, how do Messianic Jews like yourself interpret what Paul was saying in Romans 9 to 11?

Do you agree, for example, that

1. God is not currently dealing with Israel now?
2. Both gentiles and Jews are considered uncircumcised and must enter the Body of Christ to be saved.
3. No one is blessed by God for blessing the current nation of Israel we see in the world map?
4. etc?

 

[Guojing]

Matthew 28

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The order of salvation is given in Luke and Acts versions of the Great Commission.

 

[expos4ever]

God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to act in accordance with His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant we are under.

This logic does not work - the fact that God's nature does not change certainly does not necessarily mean that the way He deals with us does not change.

Besides, it is clear from scripture that the Law is behind us:

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [a]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Are you, like many others before, going to rewrite this verse to accommodate your theology?

 

[sparow]

Jeremiah 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

God isn't making a covenant with the world, He is only making the covenant with the House of Israel/the Twelve Tribes. If the world does not change citizenship to become part of Israel, they will not be given the Holy Spirit. Also when Christ returns, he's not coming to save the world, He is returning to save Israel--and Israel only.

Jeremiah 16:14-15 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that it shall no more be said, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,’ but, ‘The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.’ For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.'

Matthew 24:22; Ezekiel 37:16-24

The Exodus and End Times are book ends. The entire Bible is Israel-centric; it only ever has to do with Israel and nations that come in contact with Israel. But just like during the Exodus, a great mixed multitude came out with Israel.

How does this set with people who are against the Hebrew Roots movements, or those from the past who accused Christians of Judaizing and persecuted them for it? If you're not Israel, you won't be rescued. You don't have to be blood Israel anymore, but how does one know your citizenship, except by your culture and behavior? You can't continue in man-made traditions and the culture of the world if you're an Israelite by birth or adoption. If the world doesn't recognize you as an Israelite, a Spiritual Jew, or a "Judaizer", as some mock, then it's unlikely God does as well.

Clearly, come The Great and Terrible Day of The Lord, the whole world is under judgement; Israel is a role model, who sets the example; both of what to do and what not to do.

 

[A_Thinker]

Do you see Matthew 28:19-20 as being in accordance with the verses cited in the post you were responding to or as contradicting them?

I was attempting to answer the question that was originally posed in the thread declaration ... "The Covenant is only for Israel - Not the World".

I would say that the GRACE COVENANT brought by Jesus ... is extended to every human soul ... despite PHYSICAL Israelite heritage.

Of course, one could broaden the question by noting that there is a difference between PHYSICAL Israel ... and SPIRITUAL Israel, and conclude that all believers are part of SPIRITUAL Israel.

That said, ... it is clear from the Jerusalem Council account in Acts that the body of believers, which was beginning to include non-Israelites, was NOT subject to the Mosaic Covenant, which is the Covenant which being replaced by the New Testament Grace Covenant. The Jerusalem Council clearly communicated to the Church of their day ... that believers (i.e. Spiritual Israel) ... was different from physical Israel, ... and that God's expectations for those 2 different groups of people were different. So, no circumcision requirement (as it is the HEART that is circumcised in the New Covenant), no requirement of observing Old Testament feast-days, etc.

To conflate PHYSICAL Israel with SPIRITUAL Israel is an error. PHYSICAL Israel's God-given purpose was to demonstrate the inability of humankind to meet the requirements of God for His people. SPIRITUAL Israel is the body of believers who have placed their faith in the saving power of Jesus Christ ... demonstrating (if you will) the efficacy of God's saving grace.

 

[Soyeong]

Just curious, how do Messianic Jews like yourself interpret what Paul was saying in Romans 9 to 11?

Do you agree, for example, that

1. God is not currently dealing with Israel now?
2. Both gentiles and Jews are considered uncircumcised and must enter the Body of Christ to be saved.
3. No one is blessed by God for blessing the current nation of Israel we see in the world map?
4. etc?

The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37), so that does not leave any room to interpret Romans 9 and 11 as saying that God is not currently dealing with Israel. In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that came up out of Egypt, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai, and in Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so Israel is inclusive of all Gentiles who have faith in the God of Israel. In Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19, through faith in Messiah, Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God. In Acts 15:16-18, they considered the inclusion of Gentiles to be part of the the restoration of Israel in fulfillment of prophecy. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6).

In Romans 9:6-8, Israel is composed of all those who have faith in the promise. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to Gentiles, and it is by the Torah that his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 25:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that (which is in accordance with spreading the Gospel that was made known in advance to him), and because the children of Abraham did that. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, and in Psalms 119:1-3, the Torah is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with faith in the promise is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel, which is what composes the body of Christ (Galatians 3:26-29).

 

[Soyeong]

This logic does not work - the fact that God's nature does not change certainly does not necessarily mean that the way He deals with us does not change.

A change in the circumstances of how a rule applies does not mean that the rule has changed. For example, if someone consistently followed a rule where children under 18 have a curfew, then a child having a curfew until the circumstance that they are old enough to not have one does not mean that the rule has changed or that the person enforcing the rule has changed the way that they deal with children or adults. On the other hand, if the person thought that that rule should not longer be followed, then that would mean that they were changing the way that they deal with children or adults.

Likewise, a change in the circumstances of whether killing someone is murder does mean that God's law against murder has changed. On the other hand, if God were no longer against us committing murder, then that would be a change in the way that He deals with us. It would be contradictory for God's righteousness to be eternal while committing murder changed from acting contrary to His righteousness to being in accordance with His righteousness. When I say that God's righteousness and the way to act in accordance with His righteousness are eternal, I am not claiming that it is always contrary to God's righteousness to kill someone regardless of the circumstances, but rather that committing murder is always contrary to God's righteousness and that the standard of what counts as murder will always be the same. If killing someone in a particular set of circumstances is committing murder and that will never change so that killing someone in an identical set of circumstances is no longer committing murder.

Besides, it is clear from scripture that the Law is behind us:

6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [a]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Are you, like many others before, going to rewrite this verse to accommodate your theology?

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, so there is no need for you to rewrite Romans 7:6 in order to accommodate your theology, just the need for you to make the case that the law that held us captive from which we have been released should be interpreted as referring to the law that Paul delighted in obeying rather than the law that held him captive.

 

[expos4ever]

In Romans 7:22-23, Paul delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive, so there is no need for you to rewrite Romans 7:6 in order to accommodate your theology,

It is not me who is rewriting Romans 7:6, it is anyone who denies that it claims that we have been set from from the Law of Moses. Here it is in context:

For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were brought to light by the Law, were at work in [a]the parts of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the [b]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter

What is "the Law" in verse 5? Obviously the Law of Moses. So how can "the Law" in the very next verse be anything other than the Law of Moses? Especially since, as verse 6 declares the result of the being released from "the Law" is that we no longer serve "the letter"! This, again, is an obvious reference to the Law of Moses.

It is denial, pure and simple, to suggest that it is anything other than the Law of Moses that is what Paul is talking about in verse 6 - he has just referred to the Law of Moses in the preceding sentence and the "law of sin" will not be introduced till verse 21.

Like others, you are telling us something that is true - there is indeed a "law of sin", but not relevant as it is otherwise clear, as has just been proven, that it is the Law of Moses that Paul is talking about in verse 6.

We are released both from the Law of Moses and the law of sin.

Now then, as for Paul delighting in the Law of Moses:

You appear to be arguing that since Paul lauds the law and delights in it so much - which he clearly does - he cannot possibly believe that the Law also has a role in bringing about Paul's death. But, the problem, of course, is that Paul is very clear that the Law itself does indeed create problems:

But sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me [m]coveting of every kind;

for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me, and through it, killed me

To be clear: both these texts say that the Law offered an opportunity to "sin" that allowed sin to then do its dirty work. Do you deny this? If so, I suggest this amounts to a rejection of the full inspiration of all words of scripture.

For my part, I take Paul at his word on everything - the Law is indeed holy and good and yet, strangely, it facilitates his downfall.

Instead of denying something that Paul says - as you clearly do if you deny that the Law is a problem - I choose to see how I can accept both these things, contradictory as they may seem. And there is, I suggest, a way: Paul sees the Law as something that is good and wonderful in itself but that it backfires when it operates on a person who is in a fallen position. The law can indeed be a good thing, but if the people who try to follow it are tainted with a sinful nature, all bets are off.

 

[Guojing]

The New Covenant is based on better promises and one of those promises is that Israel would never cease to be a nation before God (Jeremiah 31:35-37), so that does not leave any room to interpret Romans 9 and 11 as saying that God is not currently dealing with Israel. In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that came up out of Egypt, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai, and in Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native born, so Israel is inclusive of all Gentiles who have faith in the God of Israel. In Ephesians 2:12 and 2:19, through faith in Messiah, Gentiles are no longer strangers or aliens, but are fellow citizens of Israel along with the saints in the household of God. In Acts 15:16-18, they considered the inclusion of Gentiles to be part of the the restoration of Israel in fulfillment of prophecy. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6).

In Romans 9:6-8, Israel is composed of all those who have faith in the promise. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to Gentiles, and it is by the Torah that his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which is in accordance with Jesus being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which is the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), and which he spread to Gentiles in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 25:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and those of his household to do that (which is in accordance with spreading the Gospel that was made known in advance to him), and because the children of Abraham did that. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, and in Psalms 119:1-3, the Torah is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied and are a blessing to the nations in accordance with faith in the promise is by turning the nations from their wickedness and teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel, which is what composes the body of Christ (Galatians 3:26-29).

So to sum up, your point is,

all of us who are Christians are now also part of the nation of Israel.

Hence, the Law that applied to OT Israel, now also apply to us.

Is this the correct summary?

 

[fhansen]

To turn away from wickedness means, "If you love me you will keep my commandments"; Christ was the Word in the Old Testament and gave physical Israel the laws, the judgements, the statutes and we are told to obey His commandments. The church as Spiritual Israel keeps the law. Christ added to the law "anyone who looks at a woman to lust has committed adultery".

To be a citizen of Israel, in the church and in the Kingdom, means to keep the laws of the kingdom--which are neatly laid out in the OT, and expounded on in the New.

Yes, and in order to keep the law authentically all must be changed interiorly as they're reborn, becoming new creations, adopted sons of God, now having communion/fellowship with Him. This happens as we come to know Him through His Son and so humbly turn to Him in faith and are now reconciled-before attempting to obey the law on our own, apart from Him. All fell and became unrighteous through the disobedience of Adam. All rise to newness of life as we turn back to God and then, from the vantage of that right and just relationship that man was made for and that Adam originally dismissed, He produces true righteousness in us, He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts. He causes us to love as He does to put it best, our loving Him because He first loved us.