The Counterfeit Character of God Movement

[reddogs]

Hi,

Mark here from HeavenlySanctuary. Since Xenon was kind enough to visit HeavenlySanctuary.com and directly ask if the things he was being told were true, I thought it would only be right for me to return the favor and join your discussion here so that others can decide for themselves whether I am Satan's representative or not.

My thanks to RND and Cheri for being protective of my reputation and that of HeavenlySanctuary, for Xenon for checking things out personally, and to Redogs for honestly stating his concerns.

I want to be sure to be clear that I am only representing my personal viewpoint - I am not acting as an "official spokesman" for anyone. That being said, I believe that I am not too far off from the rest of the HS.com team and the general consesus on the forums there.

I should also note that while the HS.com forum tries very hard to keep the tone safe and genial, we do allow a WIDE range of viewpoints. So something plucked off a post by an individual on the forum may not at all represent HS or the GNT.

I must also confess that the ads that keep trying to pop up on my browser are more than a little annoying. But I guess I'll get over it!

Given the title of your forum "Traditional Adventists - The form for Adventist members" I should give full disclosure. I'm 3rd generation Adventist and believe that the Adventist church was raised to give a "finishing message" to the world. But I also was trained to think for myself and believe that the ultimate authority is "truth" - what is - rather than any organization, doctrine or creed. So I do not always come to the same conclusions about what things mean that "traditional Adventists" might come to. I try to follow wherever God leads - and sometimes that puts me at odds with the established structures. But I find myself in good company there - Jesus found himself at odds with the established structures of his time. "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Or so it seems to me.

Mark

Thanks Mark for coming by to answer some of the questions that have come up. My original concerns were caused on this thread which had the following thread http://www.heavenlysanctuary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=52005 which had beliefs that some feel need 'change'...

".....Take a look at this article in "Progressive Adventism" called 'Change: The Adventist Constant':

.......Forecasting Future Changes


1. Sanctuary/Investigative Judgment: 1844 will be meaningful subjectively in the Adventist world as the time of the inauguration of the movement, but not objectively as THE fulfillment of Daniel 8:14. What will be salvaged is the “investigative” nature of judgment which is already clearly presaged in John Wesley’s writings.


2. Remnant: That the Adventist church is “the remnant church of Bible prophecy” (Baptismal Vow) will be revised into an expression that is more humble and open to God’s truth and revelation in other churches and religions, while continuing to claim a special, particular mission and calling as a movement raised up by God. The ongoing formal dialogues with other denominations and religions (and the increasing collaborative efforts taking place at the local level) will effectively make the “remnant church” claim a relic of the 19th century Adventism.


3. Daniel & Revelation: The two apocalypses will be read increasingly under the influence of the apocalyptic teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. This will have a tempering impact on reading the two books as definite timelines, but more as illustrations of the power of God and expressions of Christian hope and courage.

4. Ellen White: While her foundational influence will never be forgotten nor ignored, she will be read more and more as Luther, Calvin and Wesley (btw, the three angels of Rev 14 according to early Wesleyan interpreters) have come to be appreciated in their respective traditions. Adventists will come to a place where they are free to disagree with her openly without needing to discard her or her prophetic ministry.


5. Creation/Origin of Life: Most Adventists in the foreseeable future will retain variations of young-earth creationist views, but as global Adventism becomes more educated and affluent, there will be a greater degree of tolerance toward evolutionary creationists in their midst. This issue will increasingly become less of a litmus test.


6. Clean/Unclean Meat: Given the seriousness with which the words of Jesus and Paul (e.g., Mark 7, Romans 14) are taken, Leviticus 11 will cease to be strictly followed by Adventists. Instead, as is the case with jewelry, this issue will become a matter of individual choice.


7. Homosexuality: Most Adventists in the foreseeable future will remain averse to acceptance of homosexuality as a legitimate expression of one’s sexuality. But as global Adventism becomes more educated and exposed to homosexual individuals in their personal lives, there will be a greater degree of tolerance toward homosexuals in their midst. This issue will increasingly become less of a litmus test.


8. Scripture: Adventists will no longer be marked by one way of reading Scripture or one narrow set of interpretations. Diverse interpretations will flourish and lively, at times very contentious, debates will accompany them. Official pronouncements will always take a more cautious, conservative approach, but an acknowledgment will be made of a diversity of opinions that exist on some contentious issues. Life will go on, people and this church will keep on changing, and the Spirit will guide the process.


Some will say that this is a prediction of doom. Others will say that this is the wish list of a desperate, even delusional, soul. For me, it is a simple expression of hope for the future of a Spirit-led, dynamic movement...."

http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/03/09/change-the-adventist-constant/...."



So the concerns which came up on this thread from the response of the Admin and Moderators of HS.com go to the heart of Adventism. To clear up some of these issues, could you give us your read and address some basic questions on what the Admin and Moderators of HS.com believe on the following as best as you can tell us.

A. That the testimony of Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy manifested in Ellen White's writings as given in the fundementals.. #18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

B. Do they believe the Sabbath is important and what will show those who follow the Commandments at the end.

C. Do they hold to the belief that the Adventist church is “the remnant church of Bible prophecy”?

D. Do they think there is no longer a need for Adventists to use the Spirit of Prophecy in reading Scripture and hold to its set of interpretations especially on Daniel & Revelation, 1844, the IJ and Sanctuary.

Thanks for your response on these concerns.
Rick

 

[Cherie7]

Thanks Mark for coming by to answer some of the questions that have come up. My original concerns were caused on this thread which had the following thread which had beliefs that some feel need 'change'...

".....Take a look at this article in "Progressive Adventism" called 'Change: The Adventist Constant':

.......Forecasting Future Changes


1. Sanctuary/Investigative Judgment: 1844 will be meaningful subjectively in the Adventist world as the time of the inauguration of the movement, but not objectively as THE fulfillment of Daniel 8:14. What will be salvaged is the “investigative” nature of judgment which is already clearly presaged in John Wesley’s writings.


2. Remnant: That the Adventist church is “the remnant church of Bible prophecy” (Baptismal Vow) will be revised into an expression that is more humble and open to God’s truth and revelation in other churches and religions, while continuing to claim a special, particular mission and calling as a movement raised up by God. The ongoing formal dialogues with other denominations and religions (and the increasing collaborative efforts taking place at the local level) will effectively make the “remnant church” claim a relic of the 19th century Adventism.


3. Daniel & Revelation: The two apocalypses will be read increasingly under the influence of the apocalyptic teachings of Jesus in the Gospels. This will have a tempering impact on reading the two books as definite timelines, but more as illustrations of the power of God and expressions of Christian hope and courage.

4. Ellen White: While her foundational influence will never be forgotten nor ignored, she will be read more and more as Luther, Calvin and Wesley (btw, the three angels of Rev 14 according to early Wesleyan interpreters) have come to be appreciated in their respective traditions. Adventists will come to a place where they are free to disagree with her openly without needing to discard her or her prophetic ministry.


5. Creation/Origin of Life: Most Adventists in the foreseeable future will retain variations of young-earth creationist views, but as global Adventism becomes more educated and affluent, there will be a greater degree of tolerance toward evolutionary creationists in their midst. This issue will increasingly become less of a litmus test.


6. Clean/Unclean Meat: Given the seriousness with which the words of Jesus and Paul (e.g., Mark 7, Romans 14) are taken, Leviticus 11 will cease to be strictly followed by Adventists. Instead, as is the case with jewelry, this issue will become a matter of individual choice.


7. Homosexuality: Most Adventists in the foreseeable future will remain averse to acceptance of homosexuality as a legitimate expression of one’s sexuality. But as global Adventism becomes more educated and exposed to homosexual individuals in their personal lives, there will be a greater degree of tolerance toward homosexuals in their midst. This issue will increasingly become less of a litmus test.


8. Scripture: Adventists will no longer be marked by one way of reading Scripture or one narrow set of interpretations. Diverse interpretations will flourish and lively, at times very contentious, debates will accompany them. Official pronouncements will always take a more cautious, conservative approach, but an acknowledgment will be made of a diversity of opinions that exist on some contentious issues. Life will go on, people and this church will keep on changing, and the Spirit will guide the process.


Some will say that this is a prediction of doom. Others will say that this is the wish list of a desperate, even delusional, soul. For me, it is a simple expression of hope for the future of a Spirit-led, dynamic movement...."


So the concerns which came up on this thread from the response of the Admin and Moderators of HS.com go to the heart of Adventism. To clear up some of these issues, could you give us your read and address some basic questions on what the Admin and Moderators of HS.com believe on the following as best as you can tell us.

A. That the testimony of Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy manifested in Ellen White's writings as given in the fundementals.. #18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

B. Do they believe the Sabbath is important and what will show those who follow the Commandments at the end.

C. Do they hold to the belief that the Adventist church is “the remnant church of Bible prophecy”?

D. Do they think there is no longer a need for Adventists to use the Spirit of Prophecy in reading Scripture and hold to its set of interpretations especially on Daniel & Revelation, 1844, the IJ and Sanctuary.

Thanks for your response on these concerns.
Rick

Hi Again Rick,

To be fair, the list about progressive Adventism was not written by anyone at HS.com. You posted it. Then you had a stealth agenda to find out if you could find fault in our answers.

I am really hurt that you would charactize all of us together and instead of bringing out your concerns in the open at HS.com, you copied the link and then tell everyone over here that some of us don't believe in the SOP and the Sabbath. This is not true for me. If anyone read the whole thread, they should be able to see that some of us lean more toward compassion than judgment when it comes to others. I am really disappointed in you as a brother in Christ than you would misrepresent myself and others in this dishonest light.

Where did I ever say that I did not believe in the SOP? I think I remember saying that I thought the author of that list was really pushing the envelope on that one. And I know I have never said anything that would indicate I think the Sabbath is not valid.

Your tagline here speaks of the love we should have for one another, I am not seeing the love my friend. Is it that you have just assumed I am not a Christian in your eyes so you have no responsibility for misleading others about what I believe? I am sorry this seems so personal but I answered your questions over there with honesty and compassion for everyone. I think you could atleast have an answer for yourself when I come over here.

And just for the record..I do believe that Ellen White is a prophet, that the Sabbath will be the test and sign of loyalty to God in the last conflict (however keeping of the Sabbath alone won't save us without love for each other and God) and that the SDA church is the remnant and that the sanctuary service is a model for understanding our salvation and the IJ.
I think as much time as you have spent there you would have read some threads that indicate that all of these are true.

One of the things I love about that site is that the people who post there are free to say anything and allowed to express differences of opinion as they grow and learn. If your false reports are the standard of what goes on over here I will not be around here very much.

Cherie

 

[Cherie7]

"Be very careful how you carry reports. Often what you tell to others, though seeming to you to be truth, is misrepresentation. Thus false conclusions are formed. Thread after thread of misrepresentation is woven into the web, until the pattern is spoiled. Oh, how many hearts are grieved and wounded because of statements made by those who do not really know that what they report is true! How much pain is caused by cruel handling of reputation!. The course of those who utter the slander would be just as dark if represented as they represent the course of the one whom they are accusing." {PUR, January 15, 1903 par. 6}

"If a brother differ with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule, do not place him in a false light or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions... You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot really clearly define your own position." (Letter 21, 1888; also Counsels to Writers and Editors 50)

 

[livingtemple]

Reddogs,


Mark said:

"I want to be sure to be clear that I am only representing my personal viewpoint - I am not acting as an "official spokesman" for anyone. That being said, I believe that I am not too far off from the rest of the HS.com team and the general consesus on the forums there."


While I support Mark as a dear friend and mentor who encourages me to think for myself - I agree with his above statement ... Mark is not an official spokesman for any one person or any organization - except for Mark. In fact, no one team member of Hs.com is equipped to be the official spokesperson nor would any team member desire to be. Our organization is built on equality - not heirarchy therefore we don't have a *point person* or official mouth-piece persay.

Hs.com is as diverse as the SDA church which is as diverse as Christendom which is as diverse as the world at large. In order to know what Hs.com team thinks on any one point of theology one would need to address Hs.com's individuals on those points.

I have found the best way to really hear another point of view is to advance on a personal level - like personal emails and eventually phone calls and face-to-face if appropriate. There is a huge risk at employing active listening though - you risk having your own personal paradigm take a tilt or even an entire transformation.

;-)

By the way, I always wondered what reddogs stood for - after seeing your red chow (is he yours?) I understand! Cute puppy.

Peace,

Stacie

 

[Man-ofGod]

Ah, Pilate's famous question! Jesus declined to answer it, so I don't know if I'm stepping out of bounds but...

Or you can say that Pilate was asking the question rhetorically as it appeared he walked out right away, not looking for an answer.

John 18:38
Pilate said to Him, “What is truth?” And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, “I find no fault in Him at all.

But Jesus did answer the question for those who earnestly seeked the answer,

John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me

Scripture also defined truth as,

John 17:17
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth

Amen?

Actually I put my answer to your question right after my statement of what I give ultimate authority to:
What I mean by that is that "truth" is simply "reality", things as they actually are (as opposed to how we perceive them), the way God made the universe and all its creatures operate. Thus God "is truth."

I think this is where you part ways with traditional Adventist. Traditional Adventist teaches (and therefore scripture) that the way things actually are are not the way things always been. In addition, current reality does not dictate future reality either. Therefore, what we see today cannot describe Gods character even if they were perceived in its purest form with no filters. Only scripture can do this. Also the current reality on this earth may not be the reality that God wants us to look towards as truth, especially when used outside the context of scripture (not saying you do this btw). The actual reality, when it comes to pass, will have no sin. ( Confused yet ? ) But at the same time, there is things in nature that we can experience that still does reflect God's love for us. For example, He still sends the rain so we can drink but the stormy clouds still serve to remind us of our sin and need for salvation.

Satan, on the other hand, is the "father of lies" - unreality, what is not.

I agree 100% here. The world is full of deception because of Satin. This is the reason we have scripture.

Oh, and thanks for the hint on FireFox. But I already use it. It may just be chance, but as soon as I registered for this web site I started getting all sorts of browser windows and tabs trying to open - even when the browser was down. It took me the better part of the day and some hard earned cash to get rid of the adware. (StopZilla seems to have done the trick.)

Mark

Stopzilla, I am going to have to look that one up



Look forward to your incite and if I perceived anything incorrect, I am sure you will correct me

 

[MrBadger42]

Thanks for your response on these concerns.
Rick

Hmmm, sorry to disappoint. But I thought I was pretty clear that I cannot and will not speak for anyone else.

However, I think that I answered most of your questions in my brief statement in my first post. I guess I didn't touch on the Sabbath, but I will say that I believe that the Sabbath was given as a special time for God and his human children, that it should be a celebration of our relationship to God, and that if and when it becomes a symbol for the kind of awesome God we serve rather than an arbitrary requirement, then, and only then, it will be the sign of God's true people.

I don't think it would be helpful for me to list my own version of the 27, errr, 28 fundamental doctrines - people should be working that out for themselves. If you have some specific point you want to discuss I'd be more than happy to respond. But I'm not up to the shotgun approach.

Mark

 

[MrBadger42]

I think this is where you part ways with traditional Adventist.

Hmmm, I would not have thought that was a point on which I differed with "Traditional Adventists".

Traditional Adventist teaches (and therefore scripture)

Don't mean to give offense but.. I had to laugh a bit at the way you put that. "We know this is what scripture teaches because it is what Traditional Adventists teach." Now there I think I part ways!

that the way things actually are are not the way things always been. In addition, current reality does not dictate future reality either. Therefore, what we see today cannot describe Gods character even if they were perceived in its purest form with no filters. Only scripture can do this. Also the current reality on this earth may not be the reality that God wants us to look towards as truth, especially when used outside the context of scripture (not saying you do this btw). The actual reality, when it comes to pass, will have no sin. ( Confused yet ? )

Yep. I agree 100%, I am confused at this point! You have used a lot of "in group" terminology and I would have know a lot more about you and your thinking to have any idea what you mean by all of that, let alone whether I agree with it.

Stopzilla, I am going to have to look that one up

Google StopZilla and you'll find it. Apparently you have to have posted 50 times on this site before it will let you include a link. Oh well.

Mark

 

[reddogs]

Hi Again Rick,

To be fair, the list about progressive Adventism was not written by anyone at HS.com. You posted it. Then you had a stealth agenda to find out if you could find fault in our answers.

I am really hurt that you would charactize all of us together and instead of bringing out your concerns in the open at HS.com, you copied the link and then tell everyone over here that some of us don't believe in the SOP and the Sabbath. This is not true for me. If anyone read the whole thread, they should be able to see that some of us lean more toward compassion than judgment when it comes to others. I am really disappointed in you as a brother in Christ than you would misrepresent myself and others in this dishonest light.

Where did I ever say that I did not believe in the SOP? I think I remember saying that I thought the author of that list was really pushing the envelope on that one. And I know I have never said anything that would indicate I think the Sabbath is not valid.

Your tagline here speaks of the love we should have for one another, I am not seeing the love my friend. Is it that you have just assumed I am not a Christian in your eyes so you have no responsibility for misleading others about what I believe? I am sorry this seems so personal but I answered your questions over there with honesty and compassion for everyone. I think you could atleast have an answer for yourself when I come over here.

And just for the record..I do believe that Ellen White is a prophet, that the Sabbath will be the test and sign of loyalty to God in the last conflict (however keeping of the Sabbath alone won't save us without love for each other and God) and that the SDA church is the remnant and that the sanctuary service is a model for understanding our salvation and the IJ.
I think as much time as you have spent there you would have read some threads that indicate that all of these are true.

One of the things I love about that site is that the people who post there are free to say anything and allowed to express differences of opinion as they grow and learn. If your false reports are the standard of what goes on over here I will not be around here very much.

Cherie

Cherie,

That is correct, I brought it by many forums and only in HS.com did I get surprised by the reaction of the Admin and Mods, thus the issue. The members can answer however they want in a open forum as that is their right, but if you are in charge or lead out in a Adventist forum as a mod and do not hold to the beliefs of Adventism, then it should be made clear.

Rick

 

[reddogs]

"Be very careful how you carry reports. Often what you tell to others, though seeming to you to be truth, is misrepresentation. Thus false conclusions are formed. Thread after thread of misrepresentation is woven into the web, until the pattern is spoiled. Oh, how many hearts are grieved and wounded because of statements made by those who do not really know that what they report is true! How much pain is caused by cruel handling of reputation!. The course of those who utter the slander would be just as dark if represented as they represent the course of the one whom they are accusing." {PUR, January 15, 1903 par. 6}

"If a brother differ with you on some points of truth, do not stoop to ridicule, do not place him in a false light or misconstrue his words, making sport of them; do not misinterpret his words and wrest them of their true meaning. This is not conscientious argument. Do not present him before others as a heretic, when you have not with him investigated his positions... You do not yourself really know the evidence he has for his faith, and you cannot really clearly define your own position." (Letter 21, 1888; also Counsels to Writers and Editors 50)

I have put the links to the threads so there is no mistaking what was posted, and I as I said before have withheld any judgement other than to say I was very surprised at the Admins/mods resposes in that thread and await a correction or explanation in case there was a misunderstanding.

 

[reddogs]

Hmmm, sorry to disappoint. But I thought I was pretty clear that I cannot and will not speak for anyone else.

However, I think that I answered most of your questions in my brief statement in my first post. I guess I didn't touch on the Sabbath, but I will say that I believe that the Sabbath was given as a special time for God and his human children, that it should be a celebration of our relationship to God, and that if and when it becomes a symbol for the kind of awesome God we serve rather than an arbitrary requirement, then, and only then, it will be the sign of God's true people.

I don't think it would be helpful for me to list my own version of the 27, errr, 28 fundamental doctrines - people should be working that out for themselves. If you have some specific point you want to discuss I'd be more than happy to respond. But I'm not up to the shotgun approach.

Mark

Thats why I asked if you "could you give us your read and address some basic questions on" our concerns, but it appears that is not going to be the case, and to make light of the fundamentals is not what I would expect in a serious discussion and I am dissapointed to say the least.

Rick

 

[reddogs]

Hi Reddogs!

I just reread through this thread. I was one of those who wrote quite a bit on it and I consider you a friend. I myself, absolutely believe in the Spirit of Prophecy as given to Ellen White. I didn't then, nor do I agree now with the original post on that thread. It seems to me that we were trouble shooting what to do with the difference between what we teach as a church and the members who do not live what we call the "standards." I also know from many conversations that many who lead out in the Good News Tours and write there DO believe in the spirit of Prophecy as manifested by Ellen White. I am shocked to see what you wrote. I think this is another example of how rumors get started. Perhaps you were thinking of another thread?

God bless,

Cherie

Cherie,

I was concerned more by the mods and admin posts in this thread in particular than the members, but your posts were open and honest and I had no issue with.

Rick

 

[RND]

I have put the links to the threads so there is no mistaking what was posted, and I as I said before have withheld any judgement other than to say I was very surprised at the Admins/mods resposes in that thread and await a correction or explanation in case there was a misunderstanding.

Rick, from your first post on this topic:

Well I didnt see any problems with HeavenlySanctuary.com until I probed a little deeper lately, the moderators and many others seem to believe a private interpretation on the 'testmony of Christ' and they reject the Spirit of Prophecy as given to Ellen White. So they have issues....check out the last thread I had..

and then this to Cherie:

Cherie,

I was concerned more by the mods and admin posts in this thread in particular than the members, but your posts were open and honest and I had no issue with.

Who are the "many others?"

Also, you said this to Mark:

Thats why I asked if you "could you give us your read and address some basic questions on" our concerns, but it appears that is not going to be the case, and to make light of the fundamentals is not what I would expect in a serious discussion and I am dissapointed to say the least.

I think in light of the OP's assertions and direction it would seem more appropriate to, instead of painting Mark into a corner, to have listed your concerns regarding HS.com and the GNT and allow commentary to flow from there.

Rick I think it is a sad day when a book of dubious and questionable origin can cause such a rift in an otherwise meaningful relationship between members of the same denomination.

 

[Man-ofGod]

Hmmm, I would not have thought that was a point on which I differed with "Traditional Adventists".

ok

Don't mean to give offense but.. I had to laugh a bit at the way you put that. "We know this is what scripture teaches because it is what Traditional Adventists teach." Now there I think I part ways!

I agree, let me reverse, Scripture teaches (and therefore Tradiitonal Adventist). Better?

Yep. I agree 100%, I am confused at this point! You have used a lot of "in group" terminology and I would have know a lot more about you and your thinking to have any idea what you mean by all of that, let alone whether I agree with it.

My point here was the things of this world are no substitute for Gods written word. What we see in the world must be perceived through the lens of scripture is my point.

I might have misunderstood, so let me get to the root of it by asking a question. Are you "sola scripture" in your beliefs? That goes for old and new testament. Straight foward answer appreciated. Thanks.

Google StopZilla and you'll find it. Apparently you have to have posted 50 times on this site before it will let you include a link. Oh well.

Mark

 

[BobRyan]

Reddogs,


Mark said:

"I want to be sure to be clear that I am only representing my personal viewpoint - I am not acting as an "official spokesman" for anyone. That being said, I believe that I am not too far off from the rest of the HS.com team and the general consesus on the forums there."


While I support Mark as a dear friend and mentor who encourages me to think for myself - I agree with his above statement ... Mark is not an official spokesman for any one person or any organization - except for Mark. In fact, no one team member of Hs.com is equipped to be the official spokesperson nor would any team member desire to be.

...
Stacie

I have to agree that you do find a variety of views on HS.com and I have been a member there before coming here and posting.

hint: My views are not always "the most popular" on boards that I visit. So Caveat Emptor so to speak.

However I have noticed a general trend on MS.com is to be well accepting of Maxwell's ideas. I say this because while I don't see any one person as defining the beliefs for the board members ("opinions my vary" seems to hold true there as it does on other boards) it would not be true to say that this board is abscent a distinctive Maxwell influence that is possibly unique by comparison to other SDA boards that I have visited.

Here for example is a very interesting thread started as a result of my interest in the whole FB#1 - Sola Sciptura teaching (one that I raised on this board as well at one time).

http://www.heavenlysanctuary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=52163

I think you get a good idea of both the diversity and some of the interesting perspectives to be found at HS.com.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Cherie7]

Cherie,

I was concerned more by the mods and admin posts in this thread in particular than the members, but your posts were open and honest and I had no issue with.

Rick

And yet here is your original quote Rick:

"That is what I have been coming across from the staff/moderators and some members there. I was shocked and saddened to read their views, and I was puzzled as I had posted there for some time and had not picked up on it or let it go when they made odd statements in their post. But that last thread they made clear that they do not hold Ellen White to be a messenger for the testimony of Christ and no one stood up except myself to protest this......it is sad to see the tares make their appearance but it is the sign we should have been prepared for.. "

You made 15 posts on that thread and I made 14. Scott wrote 7 posts and Mark wrote three. A few others had one or two posts. So you can see where I would take your blanket statement personally, that in your own words:

"they made clear that they do not hold Ellen White to be a messenger for the testimony of Christ and no one stood up except myself to protest this....." Then you called us tares? I'm sorry you judge on such little evidence and I am glad that you are not my judge. I certainly never made any such thing clear!

I might add that I had no idea that the thread was about whether we hold EGW to be a messenger or not. It started out with someone else's dream and you asking what we thought of it to many of your posts being about the dichotomy between the standards that the church teaches and the lack of evidence in the lives of the believers.

Why is HS so nice? It's an open, accepting environment to ask the difficult questions without judgement and criticism. You can believe whatever you want and call us tares, but if you are not basing your judgement on truth then what does it matter? Jesus knows our hearts.

Cherie

 

[Cherie7]

I honestly think there is a situation where some christians feel the need to criticize others and find something wrong with their beliefs. I think we should all seek God as sincerely as we can and leave a wide berth for the way others intepret scripture or understand God. Only God can read a heart and truly know the intentions. And we all grow in our own knowledge of God at different places in our lives. What is sad is when someone decides that someone else is the tares or publicly writes a book against them minus some of the facts. That is bearing false witness.

 

[reddogs]

I have to agree that you do find a variety of views on HS.com and I have been a member there before coming here and posting.

hint: My views are not always "the most popular" on boards that I visit. So Caveat Emptor so to speak.

However I have noticed a general trend on MS.com is to be well accepting of Maxwell's ideas. I say this because while I don't see any one person as defining the beliefs for the board members ("opinions my vary" seems to hold true there as it does on other boards) it would not be true to say that this board is abscent a distinctive Maxwell influence that is possibly unique by comparison to other SDA boards that I have visited.

Here for example is a very interesting thread started as a result of my interest in the whole FB#1 - Sola Sciptura teaching (one that I raised on this board as well at one time).

http://www.heavenlysanctuary.com/forum/viewtopic.php?showtopic=52163

I think you get a good idea of both the diversity and some of the interesting perspectives to be found at HS.com.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

You are hitting on the mark, there is a lot of diversity and perspectives in online forums, Adventist or otherwise. But if the admin/mods do not accept the doctrines and beliefs of Adventism or have issues with some aspects of it then they need to make that clear or give a indication of what issues they might have. That to me is the best way to handle it especially with those that have been there as regulars so they are not 'surprised or bewildered' by the turn of events or posts.

Rick

 

[reddogs]

Rick, from your first post on this topic:



and then this to Cherie:



Who are the "many others?"

Also, you said this to Mark:



I think in light of the OP's assertions and direction it would seem more appropriate to, instead of painting Mark into a corner, to have listed your concerns regarding HS.com and the GNT and allow commentary to flow from there.

Rick I think it is a sad day when a book of dubious and questionable origin can cause such a rift in an otherwise meaningful relationship between members of the same denomination.

Cherie always has a honesty and openness on her posts and whether I agree or disagree with her views, at least I know where she stands. As for my concerns, I thought I made them clear on my posts and when I asked if they could be addressed so it would give us a better picture.

 

[RND]

Bob,

You are hitting on the mark, there is a lot of diversity and perspectives in online forums, Adventist or otherwise. But if the admin/mods do not accept the doctrines and beliefs of Adventism or have issues with some aspects of it then they need to make that clear or give a indication of what issues they might have. That to me is the best way to handle it especially with those that have been there as regulars so they are not 'surprised or bewildered' by the turn of events or posts.

Rick

Rick, I think you are being terribly unfair here.

No one at HS.com, the administration or moderators, or any of those who have posted here "do not accept the doctrines and beliefs of Adventism or have issues with some aspects of it then they need to make that clear or give a indication of what issues they might have" as you have stated.

In fact, many have reinforced their beliefs in those doctrines and beliefs, both here and at HS.com in rather strong yet eloquent terms. What more do you want from these people Rick? A prerecorded message inserted in their heads that states the 28 FB and says, "Ellen White was a prophetess" when the cord is pulled? Good grief! Now I know how the Inquisition started!

I've never met Graham Maxwell Rick. But I know many people who have not only met him but have been students of his. I've never heard one bad word about the man.

You know what's super funny Rick? When I took my profession of faith almost 3 years ago (April 6) I was given a welcome basket with plant seeds, cookies, homemade bread, and a book - "Can God be Trusted" by Graham Maxwell! It's a great book. Have you read it?

 

[RND]

Cherie always has a honesty and openness on her posts and whether I agree or disagree with her views, at least I know where she stands. As for my concerns, I thought I made them clear on my posts and when I asked if they could be addressed so it would give us a better picture.

You must be reading different post than I am then.