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The Counterfeit Character of God Movement

reddogs

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You must be reading different post than I am then.

Ok, lets back up then. What concerns do Steve Wohlberg and Dr. Chris Lewis of Loma Linda University bring up in their book:




and can we get Mark or anyone from HS.com to address them.

I apologize to anyone for any posts that may have caused offense, and ask for their forgiveness as I can be very direct sometimes. Lets work our way through the issue in a Christian manner the way it should be without causing our brothers and sisters distress or harm in our posts. David, can you give us a brief breakdown of what issues are brought up in the book...
 
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RND

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I apologize to anyone for any posts that may have caused offense, and ask for their forgiveness as I can be very direct sometimes. Lets work our way through the issue in a Christian manner the way it should be without causing our brothers and sisters distress or harm in our posts.

Apology accepted.

David, can you give us a brief breakdown of what issues are brought up in the book...

Rick, I thought I did that in the OP. That's also one reason I included a link to the book and an interview with one of the authors.

They wrote a book questioning the motives and intents of the heart of others without even talking to or examining those people. The authors made gross assumptions then. They also wrote a book that, in my mind, is actually critical of what I consider "Traditional Adventist" views about God's true nature and character.

Adventists, since the days of EGW, have been at the forefront of preaching the goodness of God's character. This book is hyper-critical of those that take this "Traditional Adventist" view and expand on it and delve deeper into the awesome character of God.
 
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RND

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Here's one example from the book that I find distressing. From Chapter 2:


"A group calling themselves HeavenlySanctuary.com (HS.com) has been actively promoting their particular views of God’s character for years. They operate an Internet forum where issues relating to God's character are debated. Speakers sponsored by HS.com have been holding Good News Tours at Adventist churches, campuses, and camp meetings throughout America. Here is a sample of what they are teaching as revealed in the words of one of their staff members:

God has allowed His people to believe Him to be a destroyer for 1000s of years…It seems to me that the Christian Church has used fear tactics long enough to drive people to submission. I don’t care if those that hate God and hate the “love” principle of His kingdom believe that He is going to destroy them, but what I hate is what this idea does to those that have struggled all of their lives to please God, but have never entered His rest knowing how kind, loving, and gentle He is. To enter the Sabbath rest is to know God through the revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus’ finished work was revealing the character of the Father to humanity. Moses taught us to murder prostitutes and Sabbath breakers, but Jesus taught us to love them enough to give up our lives for them. Moses taught an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but Jesus taught us to love our enemies and do good to those that use us and hate us. Moses taught that God was going to rush down and destroy His enemies, but Jesus allowed His enemies to bind Him and take Him to the cross. Moses taught us to live in fear of our powerful God, but Jesus taught us that God wanted nothing more than for us to trust Him as a friend and desire to live in His presence. (Posted November 21, 2005.)

Note the statement that “God has allowed His people to believe Him to be a destroyer for 1000s of years.” This is one of the fundamental errors of the counterfeit movement. Implied in that statement is that God’s people have lived in darkness regarding His character, but now in these last days, mankind is to be enlightened that God is not a destroyer. This claim made by the people at HS.com is the exact claim being made by the New Age movement. Once that false concept is embraced by some human minds, it doesn’t matter to them anymore what inspiration teaches regarding the final destruction of the wicked. From that point on, they will only believe in a god that does not destroy. They scoff at the idea of a God that destroys out of love and mercy.
"


First off, this quote could be attributed to anyone at HS.com. It could have been made by any administrator, moderator, or just a regular poster. But to attribute the entire collective views of one organization, one web site, to a singular and particular post on an internet forum is just simply wrong and short-sighted. I think Alden Thompson does a fabulous job in describing this perplexity in his sermon. "Jesus and His violent Bible."

Why was the comment, "Jesus’ finished work was revealing the character of the Father to humanity" totally ignored?

"The glory of God is His character. . . . This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. Christ desires His followers to reveal in their lives this same character." {TMK 131.3}

Rick, this could have been one of "david's" posts for goodness sake (I know you know who david is! BTW, he goes to my church!)! Would you want a web site or ministry you worked for to be characterized by one singular post? I know I wouldn't.



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Cherie7

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Hey Rick, thanks for the apology not that I feel I needed it but it just helps to know that you are not purposely trying to misrepresent me or anyone else. I too apologize if I have seemed on your case. I value your insights and think of you as a friend and brother in Christ as I do RND also.

I read Wolberg's book myself and a lot of what he had to say seemed to infer that Maxwell and HS.com are universalists. I know David and Tony are into Uism, but the rest of the people I have met there are not. So a lot of Wolberg's concerns as addressed in his book were like straw man arguments.

I have never met Maxwell and never heard of him, until someone sent me an email saying that he was teaching the omega of apostasy. I found that to be false when I studied out his views a little. What I thought was sad was that in front of hundreds of youth at the youth convention, Wolberg basically scared all the the listeners from ever reading Maxwell.

For the record: I was not in any way down on Wolberg. As a matter of fact I was trusting his judgments and using his site that was put out against the dreams of Ernie Knoll with Bob Ryan over at HS.com a few weeks ago. At the time I was pretty sure, that Wolberg just had it all together.

The difference between Wolberg's ministy and HS to me, is that the GNT and HS are not there to put down others, even if they have a difference of opinion, they try to discourage slamming others--their ministry is built on focusing on Jesus and how He demonstrates the character of God.

I found myself agreeing with many things in Wolberg's view of God until suddenly he would say that this or that was supposedly what someone taught and I would go no, that is not what I read!

The issues are not doctrinal issues as much as what one chooses to focus on and I think RND is right that by writing a book and website to disclaim them, they have judged hearts and that is left to God.

Cherie
 
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Cherie7

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I went to this tagnet site and I am so sad to see such lies! I can't even find a name of the writer, are they so cowardly they cannot show their name? They say that HS teaches that

1. We don't need to keep the ten commandments, because we are friends with God.
2. That they teach enlightenment just like the new age movement--I found nothing weird like that only comparing scripture upon scripture for what they teach.
3. That they teach that Jesus is not the same as the OT God and surely any of you who have been over there know that is not true!

I guess I had no idea how they have misconstrued a beautiful message of truth and no one is trying to cause division in the church more than someone who thinks they have it all right and wants to point the finger at someone else.

Cherie
 
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Man-ofGod

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I went to this tagnet site and I am so sad to see such lies! I can't even find a name of the writer, are they so cowardly they cannot show their name? They say that HS teaches that

1. We don't need to keep the ten commandments, because we are friends with God.
2. That they teach enlightenment just like the new age movement--I found nothing weird like that only comparing scripture upon scripture for what they teach.
3. That they teach that Jesus is not the same as the OT God and surely any of you who have been over there know that is not true!

I guess I had no idea how they have misconstrued a beautiful message of truth and no one is trying to cause division in the church more than someone who thinks they have it all right and wants to point the finger at someone else.

Cherie

Hello Cherie,

This thread is actually the first time of hearing of HS.com. But based on what I am reading in this post and other post at HS.com, it is clear that something is different then what is "normally" done in the SDA church. So the question boils down to, what is the difference? I think people need details here. So far, it appears no one can get a clear answer. I am sure you know that Satin operates by mixing truth with lies. No body wants to fall into Satins traps. Thanks again.

BTW, this is an open question to anyone who can answer it. Thanks.
 
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RND

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3. That they teach that Jesus is not the same as the OT God

:eek:

Did Jesus' character change when He was made in the likeness of men?

Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, by a pure and holy life to condemn sin in the flesh. He came to our world to represent the character of God, and it is our work to represent the character of Christ. If we have lost His love out of our hearts, our work is to seek the Lord, that our hearts may be renewed by His Holy Spirit.--Letter 17, 1893, p. 7. (To Elder William Ings, January 9, 1893.)

In great mercy, according to His divine character, God bore long with Lucifer. The spirit of discontent and disaffection had never before been known in heaven. It was a new element, strange, mysterious, unaccountable. {FLB 70.2}

The Personality of God.--He [Christ] represented God not as an essence that pervaded nature, but as a God who has a personality. Christ was the express image of His Father's person; and He came to our world to restore in man God's moral image, in order that man, although fallen, might through obedience to God's commandments become enstamped with the divine image and character--adorned with the beauty of divine loveliness (MS 24, 1891). {7BC 921.9}

The creation of the worlds, the mystery of the gospel, are for one purpose, to make manifest to all created intelligences, through nature and through Christ, the glories of the divine character. By the marvelous display of His love in giving "his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life," the glory of God is revealed to lost humanity and to the intelligences of other worlds. {AG 129.3}

The terms of this oneness between God and man in the great covenant of redemption were arranged with Christ from all eternity. The covenant of grace was revealed to the patriarchs. The covenant made with Abraham . . . was a covenant confirmed by God in Christ, the very same gospel which is preached to us. . . . Paul speaks of the gospel, the preaching of Jesus Christ, as "the revelation of the mystery, which hath been kept in silence through times eternal, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith" (Rom. 16:25, 26, R.V.). {AG 129.5}

My question is simply this. What Ellen Gould Harmon White do these people read?
 
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Cherie7

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Hello Cherie,

This thread is actually the first time of hearing of HS.com. But based on what I am reading in this post and other post at HS.com, it is clear that something is different then what is "normally" done in the SDA church. So the question boils down to, what is the difference? I think people need details here. So far, it appears no one can get a clear answer. I am sure you know that Satin operates by mixing truth with lies. No body wants to fall into Satins traps. Thanks again.

BTW, this is an open question to anyone who can answer it. Thanks.
Thank you for such a polite questioning. I don't speak for HS.com any more than you speak for the SDA church. We are part of a movement in which there is much diversity and people have different levels of understanding.

When I read that tagnet article against HS.com, I just wanted to cry. The only other time I have had such a visceral reaction was when I went to a site that totally trashed Ellen White. In a situation like this the twisted deceptions could only be done by a master mind evil being and I am not talking human. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and evil angels.

Right off the top I can spot several untruths and false accusations against HS.com so I will list the tagnet author's words in italics and then share my opinion with you. Even then, I hope you don't take my word for it, but I hope you go to HS.com and do the research yourselves.

1. “The insinuation is made that the Jesus of the New Testament is different in character from the Jehovah of the Old Testament. To justify their theory, they misuse an Ellen White quote to make us think that all we can ever know about God was revealed in the New Testament in the life of Jesus. They brush aside the truth that the character of Jesus is revealed all throughout the Old Testament, and that Jesus Himself claimed to be the Jehovah of the Old Testament.”

Absolutely untrue!!! The emphasis over there is to look at the entire Bible through the character of Jesus who came to reveal the Father and IS the God of the OT! The Bible says that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever." Hebrews 1 says that God speaks to us these days through His Son Jesus, who is the exact representation of the Father.

There are many people who fail to understand why Moses would say stone a woman and Jesus would say forgive her. The GNT answer is that Jesus as God of the OT was dealing with a people who worshipped idols and had all kinds of pagan habits. If He had spared the lives of the wicked then there eventually would have been so many bad apples that there would not be any humans left that were not corrupted.

2. “Those in the false character of God movement claim that Christ would never order the destruction of the enemies of God’s people…”

Absolutely not true again!!! Someone may have posted their own opinion over there, but I do not think they teach this either. God has killed in a flood and other times with His strange acts. There is an emphasis on the difference between God putting some of His evil children to sleep to protect the innocent ones, but that is different than the final death of the wicked.

3. .”Any commentary that Ellen White makes regarding God's destruction of the wicked is relegated to merely her opinion.

Once again entirely untrue!!! If anything, they use her quotes which are ignored by most mainstream SDA like this one:

"The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour’s precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, AND EVEN FOR THE GOOD OF THOSE UPON WHOM HIS JUDGMENTS ARE VISITED. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}

"Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? {GC 542.1}

"Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation [BEGIN P.543] were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

God bless you for reading this. May He bless HS.com and may He help those who are working against His people to see the errors of their ways-- and bless them too with His true justice which is to bring all that are willing over to His side of the conflict.

Cherie
 
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livingtemple

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What if the hs.com was secretly an evil group setting up all the SDAs for a one big trap - then what? I don't know Reddogs - maybe Gamaliel said it best:



"33 When the leaders heard this, they became very angry. They wanted to put the apostles to death. 34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel stood up in the Sanhedrin. He was a teacher of the law. He was honored by all the people. He ordered the men to be taken outside for a little while. 35 Then he spoke to the Sanhedrin. "Men of Israel," he said, "think carefully about what you plan to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared. He claimed he was really somebody. About 400 people followed him. But he was killed. All his followers were scattered. So they accomplished nothing. 37 After this, Judas from Galilee came along. This was in the days when the Romans made a list of all the people. Judas led a gang of men against the Romans. He too was killed. All his followers were scattered. 38 So let me give you some advice. Leave these men alone! Let them go! If their plans and actions are only human, they will fail. 39 But if their plans come from God, you won't be able to stop these men. You will only find yourselves fighting against God."

May I suggest Gamaliel's advice maybe? If their plans and actions are only human, they will fail. But if their plans come from God, you won't be able to stop these men (and women ;)) You will only find yourself fighting against God.

Peace,

Stacie
 
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Man-ofGod

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Thank you for such a polite questioning. I don't speak for HS.com any more than you speak for the SDA church. We are part of a movement in which there is much diversity and people have different levels of understanding.

When I read that tagnet article against HS.com, I just wanted to cry. The only other time I have had such a visceral reaction was when I went to a site that totally trashed Ellen White. In a situation like this the twisted deceptions could only be done by a master mind evil being and I am not talking human. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and evil angels.

Right off the top I can spot several untruths and false accusations against HS.com so I will list the tagnet author's words in italics and then share my opinion with you. Even then, I hope you don't take my word for it, but I hope you go to HS.com and do the research yourselves.

1. “The insinuation is made that the Jesus of the New Testament is different in character from the Jehovah of the Old Testament. To justify their theory, they misuse an Ellen White quote to make us think that all we can ever know about God was revealed in the New Testament in the life of Jesus. They brush aside the truth that the character of Jesus is revealed all throughout the Old Testament, and that Jesus Himself claimed to be the Jehovah of the Old Testament.”

Absolutely untrue!!! The emphasis over there is to look at the entire Bible through the character of Jesus who came to reveal the Father and IS the God of the OT! The Bible says that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever." Hebrews 1 says that God speaks to us these days through His Son Jesus, who is the exact representation of the Father.

There are many people who fail to understand why Moses would say stone a woman and Jesus would say forgive her. The GNT answer is that Jesus as God of the OT was dealing with a people who worshipped idols and had all kinds of pagan habits. If He had spared the lives of the wicked then there eventually would have been so many bad apples that there would not be any humans left that were not corrupted.

2. “Those in the false character of God movement claim that Christ would never order the destruction of the enemies of God’s people…”

Absolutely not true again!!! Someone may have posted their own opinion over there, but I do not think they teach this either. God has killed in a flood and other times with His strange acts. There is an emphasis on the difference between God putting some of His evil children to sleep to protect the innocent ones, but that is different than the final death of the wicked.

3. .”Any commentary that Ellen White makes regarding God's destruction of the wicked is relegated to merely her opinion.

Once again entirely untrue!!! If anything, they use her quotes which are ignored by most mainstream SDA like this one:

"The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour’s precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, AND EVEN FOR THE GOOD OF THOSE UPON WHOM HIS JUDGMENTS ARE VISITED. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? {GC 541.4}

"Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? {GC 542.1}

"Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation [BEGIN P.543] were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

God bless you for reading this. May He bless HS.com and may He help those who are working against His people to see the errors of their ways-- and bless them too with His true justice which is to bring all that are willing over to His side of the conflict.

Cherie

Cherie,

Thank you for your comments and your perspective on the criticism made about HS.com. While the author makes bold and what appears to be harsh statements, I can understand where hes coming from (just being honest). After all, it appears that HS sponsors whats called "The Good News Tours" and this tour visits many SDA churches and youth groups such as the Pathfinders. As such, if there is an opinion that differs from mainstream SDA, I think people have a right to know up front what their children are being taught, weather the sponsoring group believes there interpretation to be right or wrong.

Now, specific to you argument (and I do not want to get too off topic here), are you subscribing to the notion that God does not destroy the wicked in a physical act but that the wicked destroy themselves? And how exactly does that unfold? I do not know if I could go as far as saying mainstream SDA ignore the verses you presented. I consider myself to be a subscriber to that mainstream SDA philosphy and think they fit in perfectly with what I believe to be true about Ellens inspired writing and scripture.

Now I was viewing one of the articles on the main HS.com site about justification, I have a major disagreement here with the authors point of view on justification and I could not imagine a "mainstream SDA" church endorsing this type of article. Although I could be wrong about that last statement, the author does acknowlege the discrepency between the mainstream belief but refers to it as a type of confusion that many Adventist have. Here is the link below.

http://www.heavenlysanctuary.com/staticpages/index.php?page=20040309224154659


To sum up my thoughts on this, I think he ignores certain verses in scripture that teaches past justification and future justification. In addition, it seems to me that he claims that once one is justified, he is saved and automatically acquires eternal life despite his actions thereafter. Therefore, he writes that keeping the commandments while no longer necessary for salvation is more appropriate for living a practical, good and healthy life. I think this contradicts a fundamental principal in scripture and mainstream SDA theology. Again, I would want to know up front if I or my family is being subject to this type of information. Of course, I do not mind anyone teaching their doctrine, but it should not be done under the guise of SDA in my humble opinion.

Thanks for listening Cherie. Please do not hesitate to correct any of my misunderstandings.
 
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livingtemple

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Cherie,

"We are part of a movement in which there is much diversity and people have different levels of understanding."

You said it! What is probably very clear to some and perplexing to others is that SDAs are indeed diverse and its okay to be diverse. Unfortunately, the sda church is no different any other church or organization or group that contains human beings ... and where there are humans there's bound to be problems.

Its seems to me that the core of this problem is always fear of thinking for oneself and then fear of others thinking for themselves. If one is satisfied and secure in their belief system and they enjoy the freedom of living according to the dictates of their own concience - then they are comfortable with others doing the same. Even if they meet a paradigm that is diametrically opposed to their own - their recovery from the initial shock will probably be much more rapid opposed to a concretist who is forceful and manipulative. Cognitive dissonance is the finest litmus test for revealing who is worst infected by the "control" virus.

Free thinking has always been a threat to darkness for by free thinking, we are guaranteed to find truth. This is why Satan and his minions work hardest not in the porn industry or crack house but behind the the church doors.

-Stacie
 
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RND

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Free thinking has always been a threat to darkness for by free thinking, we are guaranteed to find truth. This is why Satan and his minions work hardest not in the porn industry or crack house but behind the the church doors.

Wow! Ain't that the truth.

No matter what is said, or how it is said, it appears that there will always be those that don't own a ny type of mirror working to silence the goodness that is at work in the honest exploration of the truth revealed in the character of God through His Son, Jesus Christ.
 
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Man-ofGod

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Cherie,

"We are part of a movement in which there is much diversity and people have different levels of understanding."

You said it! What is probably very clear to some and perplexing to others is that SDAs are indeed diverse and its okay to be diverse. Unfortunately, the sda church is no different any other church or organization or group that contains human beings ... and where there are humans there's bound to be problems.

Its seems to me that the core of this problem is always fear of thinking for oneself and then fear of others thinking for themselves. If one is satisfied and secure in their belief system and they enjoy the freedom of living according to the dictates of their own concience - then they are comfortable with others doing the same. Even if they meet a paradigm that is diametrically opposed to their own - their recovery from the initial shock will probably be much more rapid opposed to a concretist who is forceful and manipulative. Cognitive dissonance is the finest litmus test for revealing who is worst infected by the "control" virus.

Free thinking has always been a threat to darkness for by free thinking, we are guaranteed to find truth. This is why Satan and his minions work hardest not in the porn industry or crack house but behind the the church doors.

-Stacie

Nobody is truly a "free thinker." Everyone has filters or develop filters and most of the time are unaware that they are their. Even people who are cognizant that they have these filters still cannot avoid using there filters. For example, a lot of Atheist think they are free thinkers but are unaware that they actually following deception.

I think these filters will be removed once we get to Heaven.
 
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Cherie7

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Cherie,

Thank you for your comments and your perspective on the criticism made about HS.com. While the author makes bold and what appears to be harsh statements, I can understand where hes coming from (just being honest). After all, it appears that HS sponsors whats called "The Good News Tours" and this tour visits many SDA churches and youth groups such as the Pathfinders. As such, if there is an opinion that differs from mainstream SDA, I think people have a right to know up front what their children are being taught, weather the sponsoring group believes there interpretation to be right or wrong.

Now, specific to you argument (and I do not want to get too off topic here), are you subscribing to the notion that God does not destroy the wicked in a physical act but that the wicked destroy themselves? And how exactly does that unfold? I do not know if I could go as far as saying mainstream SDA ignore the verses you presented. I consider myself to be a subscriber to that mainstream SDA philosphy and think they fit in perfectly with what I believe to be true about Ellens inspired writing and scripture.

Now I was viewing one of the articles on the main HS.com site about justification, I have a major disagreement here with the authors point of view on justification and I could not imagine a "mainstream SDA" church endorsing this type of article. Although I could be wrong about that last statement, the author does acknowlege the discrepency between the mainstream belief but refers to it as a type of confusion that many Adventist have. Here is the link below.



To sum up my thoughts on this, I think he ignores certain verses in scripture that teaches past justification and future justification. In addition, it seems to me that he claims that once one is justified, he is saved and automatically acquires eternal life despite his actions thereafter. Therefore, he writes that keeping the commandments while no longer necessary for salvation is more appropriate for living a practical, good and healthy life. I think this contradicts a fundamental principal in scripture and mainstream SDA theology. Again, I would want to know up front if I or my family is being subject to this type of information. Of course, I do not mind anyone teaching their doctrine, but it should not be done under the guise of SDA in my humble opinion.

Thanks for listening Cherie. Please do not hesitate to correct any of my misunderstandings.

I personally have no idea who the author is and I have not read his article. Remember that just because there is an article or post from someone it does not mean it is what the GNT teaches. HS is like a wikipedia of SDA opinions and studies. I would have to read the article to say if I agree or not but I have spent a lot of time here today and I DO have a life outside of forums. : )

If you want to know what the GNT teachers you can watch their sermons and videos on their site. I think watching it for yourself and deciding for oneself is really the best way to decide what is right for you.

My personal opinion is that the writer of that book and the tagnet site are both coloring things to make the point they want and it is not the truth. If more people actually read the conflict of the ages starting with Patriachs and Prophets and on through they would probably not even worry about what the GNT is teaching. I have reconfirmed what I was taught there over and over through the SOP.

It has been a blessing to me and I am a sixth gen SDA that had a grandmother and mother who are extremely well read in the SOP and I myself read it with the Bible through every year now too. I would say don't take my word or anybody's word. Listen to the DVDs and take your Bible with you.

God bless,

Cherie
 
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Cherie7

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Nobody is truly a "free thinker." Everyone has filters or develop filters and most of the time are unaware that they are their. Even people who are cognizant that they have these filters still cannot avoid using there filters. For example, a lot of Atheist think they are free thinkers but are unaware that they actually following deception.

I think these filters will be removed once we get to Heaven.

True, and yet God has given us freedom to choose and freedom of speech and thought so how much more should we encourage it and extend it to others--especially when they claim to be our brothers and sisters in the Lord, who are we to judge the tares?

Cherie
 
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Man-ofGod

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True, and yet God has given us freedom to choose and freedom of speech and thought so how much more should we encourage it and extend it to others--especially when they claim to be our brothers and sisters in the Lord, who are we to judge the tares?

Cherie

Indeed, freedom of speech and thought is very important. My faith would not be nearly as strong if not for that aspect. It is not the information that is presented to us as active participants that is dangerous, it is passive information that is dangerous. Satin is a subtle creature, and this is the path he often takes when attempting to deceive. That is why everything I do, weather going to church or watching TV, I always try to be an active listener.
 
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MrBadger42

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I might have misunderstood, so let me get to the root of it by asking a question. Are you "sola scripture" in your beliefs? That goes for old and new testament. Straight foward answer appreciated. :thumbsup:Thanks.
I know you're going to think I'm trying to be cagey but it is really impossible to answer your question without knowing exactly what you mean by "sola scripture". There is a thread on HeavenlySancuary.com on this very subject and it is long and non-trivial. But I'll do my best to tell you how I see things.

I said in my introductory statement that I believe in the "authority of truth" - what is. I believe that since "God is truth" all things which are true are not contradictory. I therefore take truth wherever it is found, in the bible, in EG White, in nature, in science, in philosophy, in mathematics - in God's leading of my life and investigations into "whether these things be true." I believe that God has given me a mind, intelligence, reason and logic as tools for thinking His thoughts after him, to give me a way to separate truth from error in order to protect the heart of love that he has also given me.

I find that the bible provides a framework for understanding God's dealing with man and as such leads me into many other realms of truth. So, if you are asking if the bible is the only place I find truth, the answer is "no".

Nor do I believe in "verbal inspiration". I don't think God dictated the bible word-for-word. The prophets were God's penmen - not his pen, as EG White puts it. I think it is necessary to read the bible in the context of the writer, the people described, and the people for whom it was written. God has always spoken in terms and images that the people could understand. We must understand God's intentions for his people if we are to understand his actions and words.

Finally, I would add a note of caution. It would be easy to make the bible into an idol, something that we revere more than the God that it points to. Remember the words of Jesus: "You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life. But it is they which testify of me. Yet you will not come to me that you may have life."

The bible is only of benefit if it leads us to Jesus Christ, if it leads us to accept his witness about his Father, if it persuades us to say to Him, "If you are a king, than I would like to be in you kingdom!"

Mark
 
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livingtemple

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Man of God,

You said:

"Nobody is truly a "free thinker."

I respectfully and humbly disagree. Our experience indeed colors our view on life however, once a mind opens itself to God like a flower to the sun - behold! A slave set free!

I know more free thinking Atheists and Agnostics than Christians - but I believe that's because they don't believe they live under the threat of execution by an angry deity. This is not to say that all Atheists and Ags "get it" and all Christians do not.

My point is this - most people follow the crowd and the evidence for that can be found in a cursory study of the effectiveness of marketing/trends and history where we see few MLKs and Ghandis. I would further go on to say that more religionists live in fear of breaking some man-made rule (thinking its from God) than not so its no wonder that they remain inside the dogma box of their church, synagogue or temple etc.

Message boards like this one are proof that categorical thinking will be our demise if we allow it.


-Stacie
 
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RND

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God's Love for Man

Nature and revelation alike testify of God's love. Our Father in heaven is the source of life, of wisdom, and of joy. Look at the wonderful and beautiful things of nature. Think of their marvelous adaptation to the needs and happiness, not only of man, but of all living creatures. The sunshine and the rain, that gladden and refresh the earth, the hills and seas and plains, all speak to us of the Creator's love. It is God who supplies the daily needs of all His creatures. In the beautiful words of the psalmist--

"The eyes of all wait upon Thee;
And Thou givest them their meat in due season.
Thou openest Thine hand,
And satisfiest the desire of every living thing."
Psalm 145:15, 16.

God made man perfectly holy and happy; and the fair earth, as it came from the Creator's hand, bore no blight of decay or shadow of the curse. It is transgression of God's law--the law of love--that has brought woe and death. Yet even amid the suffering that results from sin, God's love is revealed. It is written that God cursed the ground for man's sake. Genesis 3:17. The thorn and the thistle--the difficulties and trials that make his life one of toil and care--were appointed for his good as a part of the training needful in God's plan for his uplifting from the ruin and degradation that sin has wrought. Theworld, though fallen, is not all sorrow and misery. In nature itself are messages of hope and comfort. There are flowers upon the thistles, and the thorns are covered with roses.

"God is love" is written upon every opening bud, upon every spire of springing grass. The lovely birds making the air vocal with their happy songs, the delicately tinted flowers in their perfection perfuming the air, the lofty trees of the forest with their rich foliage of living green--all testify to the tender, fatherly care of our God and to His desire to make His children happy.

The word of God reveals His character. He Himself has declared His infinite love and pity. When Moses prayed, "Show me Thy glory," the Lord answered, "I will make all My goodness pass before thee." Exodus 33:18, 19. This is His glory. The Lord passed before Moses, and proclaimed, "The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Exodus 34:6, 7. He is "slow to anger, and of great kindness," "because He delighteth in mercy." Jonah 4:2; Micah 7:18.
God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought ofHim as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men.

The Son of God came from heaven to make manifest the Father. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. "Neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." Matthew 11:27. When one of the disciples made the request, "Show us the Father," Jesus answered, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:8, 9.

In describing His earthly mission, Jesus said, The Lord "hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised." Luke 4:18. This was His work. He went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house, for He had passed through them and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of His divine anointing. Love, mercy, and compassion were revealed in every act ofHis life; His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. He took man's nature, that He might reach man's wants. The poorest and humblest were not afraid to approach Him. Even little children were attracted to Him. They loved to climb upon His knees and gaze into the pensive face, benignant with love.

Jesus did not suppress one word of truth, but He uttered it always in love. He exercised the greatest tact and thoughtful, kind attention in His intercourse with the people. He was never rude, never needlessly spoke a severe word, never gave needless pain to a sensitive soul. He did not censure human weakness. He spoke the truth, but always in love. He denounced hypocrisy, unbelief, and iniquity; but tears were in His voice as He uttered His scathing rebukes. He wept over Jerusalem, the city He loved, which refused to receive Him, the way, the truth, and the life. They had rejected Him, the Saviour, but He regarded them with pitying tenderness. His life was one of self-denial and thoughtful care for others. Every soul was precious in His eyes. While He ever bore Himself with divine dignity, He bowed with the tenderest regard to every member of the family of God. In all men He saw fallen souls whom it was His mission to save.
Such is the character of Christ as revealed in His life. This is the character of God. It is from the Father's heart that the streams of divine compassion, manifest in Christ, flow out to the children of men. Jesus, the tender, pitying Saviour, was God "manifest in the flesh." 1 Timothy 3:16.It was to redeem us that Jesus lived and suffered and died. He became "a Man of Sorrows," that we might be made partakers of everlasting joy. God permitted His beloved Son, full of grace and truth, to come from a world of indescribable glory, to a world marred and blighted with sin, darkened with the shadow of death and the curse. He permitted Him to leave the bosom of His love, the adoration of the angels, to suffer shame, insult, humiliation, hatred, and death. "The chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5. Behold Him in the wilderness, in Gethsemane, upon the cross! The spotless Son of God took upon Himself the burden of sin. He who had been one with God, felt in His soul the awful separation that sin makes between God and man. This wrung from His lips the anguished cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Matthew 27:46. It was the burden of sin, the sense of its terrible enormity, of its separation of the soul from God--it was this that broke the heart of the Son of God.

But this great sacrifice was not made in order to create in the Father's heart a love for man, not to make Him willing to save. No, no! "God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son." John 3:16. The Father loves us, not because of the great propitiation, but He provided the propitiation because He loves us. Christ was the medium through which He could pour out His infinite love upon a fallen world. "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. God suffered with His Son. In the agony of Gethsemane, the death ofCalvary, the heart of Infinite Love paid the price of our redemption.

Jesus said, "Therefore doth My Father love Me, because I lay down My life, that I might take it again." John 10:17. That is, "My Father has so loved you that He even loves Me more for giving My life to redeem you. In becoming your Substitute and Surety, by surrendering My life, by taking your liabilities, your transgressions, I am endeared to My Father; for by My sacrifice, God can be just, and yet the Justifier of him who believeth in Jesus."

None but the Son of God could accomplish our redemption; for only He who was in the bosom of the Father could declare Him. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it manifest. Nothing less than the infinite sacrifice made by Christ in behalf of fallen man could express the Father's love to lost humanity.

"God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son." He gave Him not only to live among men, to bear their sins, and die their sacrifice. He gave Him to the fallen race. Christ was to identify Himself with the interests and needs of humanity. He who was one with God has linked Himself with the children of men by ties that are never to be broken. Jesus is "not ashamed to call them brethren" (Hebrews 2:11); He is our Sacrifice, our Advocate, our Brother, bearing our human form before the Father's throne, and through eternal ages one with the race He has redeemed--the Son of man. And all this that man might be uplifted from the ruin and degradation of sin that he might reflect the love of God and share the joy of holiness.

The price paid for our redemption, the infinite sacrifice of our heavenly Father in giving His Son to die for us, should give us exalted conceptions of what we may become through Christ. As the inspired apostle John beheld the height, the depth, the breadth of the Father's love toward the perishing race, he was filled with adoration and reverence; and, failing to find suitable language in which to express the greatness and tenderness of this love, he called upon the world to behold it. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God." 1 John 3:1. What a value this places upon man! Through transgression the sons of man become subjects of Satan. Through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ the sons of Adam may become the sons of God. By assuming human nature, Christ elevates humanity. Fallen men are placed where, through connection with Christ, they may indeed become worthy of the name "sons of God."

Such love is without a parallel. Children of the heavenly King! Precious promise! Theme for the most profound meditation! The matchless love of God for a world that did not love Him! The thought has a subduing power upon the soul and brings the mind into captivity to the will of God. The more we study the divine character in the light of the cross, the more we see mercy, tenderness, and forgiveness blended with equity and justice, and the more clearly we discern innumerable evidences of a love that is infinite and a tender pity surpassing a mother's yearning sympathy for her wayward child.

 
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reddogs

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Cherie,

"We are part of a movement in which there is much diversity and people have different levels of understanding."

You said it! What is probably very clear to some and perplexing to others is that SDAs are indeed diverse and its okay to be diverse. Unfortunately, the sda church is no different any other church or organization or group that contains human beings ... and where there are humans there's bound to be problems.

Its seems to me that the core of this problem is always fear of thinking for oneself and then fear of others thinking for themselves. If one is satisfied and secure in their belief system and they enjoy the freedom of living according to the dictates of their own concience - then they are comfortable with others doing the same. Even if they meet a paradigm that is diametrically opposed to their own - their recovery from the initial shock will probably be much more rapid opposed to a concretist who is forceful and manipulative. Cognitive dissonance is the finest litmus test for revealing who is worst infected by the "control" virus.

Free thinking has always been a threat to darkness for by free thinking, we are guaranteed to find truth. This is why Satan and his minions work hardest not in the porn industry or crack house but behind the the church doors.

-Stacie

Stacie,

Well my concern is the subtle shift I see in posts in HS.com by some of its leaders, away from Ellen White being the recipient of the testimony of Christ through the Spirit of Prophecy, to a philosophy where we are recipients of the testimomy just from our own power of self.

Thus the "authority of truth" becomes just from what we intake from all around, so we dont have to look to the pillars of Adventism built over the decades, but just use our mind to guide us and question any doctrine or belief from the mainstream. Slowly the truth given from the Spirit of Prophecy can be set aside and changed for a new philosophy, in which we decide what is right.

Thus my questions on whether those leading HS.com hold to the truth that testimony of Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy manifested in Ellen White's writings as given in the fundementals.. #18. The Gift of Prophecy:

Could you elabarate on how she is seen by those leading HS.com or at the least by you...

Thanks
Rick
 
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