The Counterfeit Character of God Movement

[RND]

Well, I was at bible study today and we were talking about a issue of some controversy, Dr. Samuele Bacchiocchi, and in his defense I said 'Yes, but he is still a good man" and the reply essentially was "we are not judging the character of the man, but the fruit of his work". And I think this is the case here, as the people of hs.com are good people, but the direction and conclusions they are coming to, we have some issues with.

I wonder if any of those at your SS class have mirrors in their houses Rick.

So I think its best we just agree to let the thing be played out, and I think we will find the answers we are looking for.

I think it would be good to dialogue with finger pointers myself.

 

[Cherie7]

Well I didnt see any problems with HeavenlySanctuary.com until I probed a little deeper lately, the moderators and many others seem to believe a private interpretation on the 'testmony of Christ' and they reject the Spirit of Prophecy as given to Ellen White. So they have issues....check out the last thread I had

Hi Reddogs!

I just reread through this thread. I was one of those who wrote quite a bit on it and I consider you a friend. I myself, absolutely believe in the Spirit of Prophecy as given to Ellen White. I didn't then, nor do I agree now with the original post on that thread. It seems to me that we were trouble shooting what to do with the difference between what we teach as a church and the members who do not live what we call the "standards." I also know from many conversations that many who lead out in the Good News Tours and write there DO believe in the spirit of Prophecy as manifested by Ellen White. I am shocked to see what you wrote. I think this is another example of how rumors get started. Perhaps you were thinking of another thread?

God bless,

Cherie

 

[RND]

Hi Reddogs!

I just reread through this thread. I was one of those who wrote quite a bit on it and I consider you a friend. I myself, absolutely believe in the Spirit of Prophecy as given to Ellen White. I didn't then, nor do I agree now with the original post on that thread. It seems to me that we were trouble shooting what to do with the difference between what we teach as a church and the members who do not live what we call the "standards." I also know from many conversations that many who lead out in the Good News Tours and write there DO believe in the spirit of Prophecy as manifested by Ellen White. I am shocked to see what you wrote. I think this is another example of how rumors get started. Perhaps you were thinking of another thread?

God bless,

Cherie

Hey Cherie! Welcome to CF and this thread in particular. It's good to have you and your perspective.

As you know from my posts at HS.com I am extremely shocked and saddened by the Wolhberg/Lewis book. It's as if they've never even taken the time to view any of the absolutely wonderful and insightful sermons from the GNT. After meeting most of the staff at the Loma Linda event in September all I can say is wow! These people have such a deep love for Christ and the Father, and remarkable respect for the sabbath and EGW that it is honestly unfathomable to me how someone can disparage their Adventist brethren in such a way.

Thanks again for being here Cherie and joining in!

 

[TrustAndObey]

I read over some of the statements here and on HS, and I can see this from both sides.

Nuff said.

Seriously, what some see as change, others see as compromise.

 

[Xenon]

RND, putting aside doctrinal stuff for a moment, are the things you're saying really in the spirit of Christ? You've turned to insults towards me and reddogs. I actually shed a few tears when I read your response to me. Not because of what you said towards me; I've taken plenty of insults throughout life. Those tears were because of what is happening to you. I apologized here and did indeed post an apology on their forum right after my last response to you. I posted a link to this thread, which is probably how Cherie found her way here (hello there, by the way). But you're clearly lashing out at the two of us and have been for most of this thread. What is happening to you to make you act this way?

 

[TrustAndObey]

RND, as much as I love you, I absolutely agree with Xenon on this one. This is way out of character for you and you're burning bridges for what purpose?

Red and Xenon are not your enemy.

It's perfectly okay to defend others, but why are you insulting your friends while you do it?

 

[RND]

RND, putting aside doctrinal stuff for a moment, are the things you're saying really in the spirit of Christ? You've turned to insults towards me and reddogs.

I haven't insulted you. I've spoken the truth about your posts and I've done it very directly. Pointing fingers at other brethren without all the facts is completely unacceptable. If you think I've insulted you I apologize but honestly I think that's simply a manufactured argument. Kinda like playing the "race card."

I actually shed a few tears when I read your response to me. Not because of what you said towards me; I've taken plenty of insults throughout life. Those tears were because of what is happening to you. I apologized here and did indeed post an apology on their forum right after my last response to you. I posted a link to this thread, which is probably how Cherie found her way here (hello there, by the way). But you're clearly lashing out at the two of us and have been for most of this thread. What is happening to you to make you act this way?

Look, I didn't accept your apology simply because you didn't harm or hurt me in anyway....as I'm sure the brethren at HS.com would see it as well. But I have to say this. Had you been a little kinder to the situation it is unlikely in my mind that you'd be shedding tears.

Xenon, you have made statements and posted scripture that would imply that you think those at HS.com are "evil" and "deceived" for no reason whatsoever. Have you taken in all the videos? Have you ever met these people? Have you ever taken the time to email them and ask them their thoughts?

The site at HS.com is full of links to the GNT tours and many resources that tell one exactly they can expect when visiting and what they stand for in their mission of the revelation of God's perfect character. I've read and re-read my statements to you and I simply don't see how you can feel I've "insulted" you or Rick Xenon.

I haven't been to HS.com in a couple of days but I am surper glad to know you apologized to them. Their mission is over their is neither "evil," full of "deception," or contrary to the beautiful revelation of God's character through Inspiration.

Peace out!

 

[RND]

RND, as much as I love you, I absolutely agree with Xenon on this one. This is way out of character for you and you're burning bridges for what purpose?

Sorry you feel that way Lainie. Nothing is my comments to either can, or should be, construed as an insult.

Red and Xenon are not your enemy.

I've never thought they were. They simply have taken positions regarding the wonderful work at the GNT that simply cannot be substantiated.

It's perfectly okay to defend others, but why are you insulting your friends while you do it?

Lainie, if being "direct" and "to the point" without "beating around the bush" is considered an insult then so be it.

 

[Cherie7]

Well David lets say I overreacted on that last thread, and I am willing to give the guys at HS.com the benefit of the doubt. But David, if one of us or other Adventist, goes in there and looks at what they are posting or ask them straight up if they believe the testimony of Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy as they clearly know from the fundy.. #18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

and they back off from that or outright reject some beliefs as I have been seeing, then we have a problem. My read from their posts is that they do not hold to that belief or have a private interpretations of it and some are getting philosophical so as not to give answer you can pin down. Maybe you can dig in there and see what the truth of the matter is, but I backed off after that thread as I was stunned and am still a bit shaken.....

Hi Rick,
I am convinced this is a misunderstanding. I answered your posts on that thread as much as maybe anyone. I absolutely believe in the writings of Ellen White and of course in keeping the Sabbath, I am working on a half hour powerpoint presentation for this coming Sabbath about the meaning of the Sabbath and how so many think it is merely a rule when God has so much more planned for us. There is definitely a misunderstanding between us if you thought in any way I discounted these two very important beliefs--please don't hold me to any discussions of my past where I struggled with understanding these things.

Cherie

 

[Cherie7]

RND, putting aside doctrinal stuff for a moment, are the things you're saying really in the spirit of Christ? You've turned to insults towards me and reddogs. I actually shed a few tears when I read your response to me. Not because of what you said towards me; I've taken plenty of insults throughout life. Those tears were because of what is happening to you. I apologized here and did indeed post an apology on their forum right after my last response to you. I posted a link to this thread, which is probably how Cherie found her way here (hello there, by the way). But you're clearly lashing out at the two of us and have been for most of this thread. What is happening to you to make you act this way?

Thank you Xenon! I am not staff at HS although I do write there a lot. But I felt your post over there was very kind and humble. That says to me that whatever might have sounded unkind was really in love of the truth and you may have not known the whole sitution, but I have no hard feelings toward anyone.

I think whenever there is a disagreement on a belief or a question about each other's version of "Truth" we can speak to each other in several ways:
1. Talk AT each other--like verbal vomiting--just spewing out tons of quotes and verses like saying I don't care what you think or how you respond--take this! (Who likes it when people do that to you?)

2. Argue--a little better at least people are listening to each other, but still gets pretty heated and sometimes insulting. (Who likes this?)

3. Talk WITH each other. This is where we try to understand each other even beyond the words we say. I want to knowwhere you are coming from. Why should I get mad at you for not seeing it my way? My goal is to be this way and if you see me speaking or treating you otherwise please call me on it.

I'm am glad to be here!

Cherie

 

[MrBadger42]

Hi,

Mark here from HeavenlySanctuary. Since Xenon was kind enough to visit HeavenlySanctuary.com and directly ask if the things he was being told were true, I thought it would only be right for me to return the favor and join your discussion here so that others can decide for themselves whether I am Satan's representative or not.

My thanks to RND and Cheri for being protective of my reputation and that of HeavenlySanctuary, for Xenon for checking things out personally, and to Redogs for honestly stating his concerns.

I want to be sure to be clear that I am only representing my personal viewpoint - I am not acting as an "official spokesman" for anyone. That being said, I believe that I am not too far off from the rest of the HS.com team and the general consesus on the forums there.

I should also note that while the HS.com forum tries very hard to keep the tone safe and genial, we do allow a WIDE range of viewpoints. So something plucked off a post by an individual on the forum may not at all represent HS or the GNT.

I must also confess that the ads that keep trying to pop up on my browser are more than a little annoying. But I guess I'll get over it!

Given the title of your forum "Traditional Adventists - The form for Adventist members" I should give full disclosure. I'm 3rd generation Adventist and believe that the Adventist church was raised to give a "finishing message" to the world. But I also was trained to think for myself and believe that the ultimate authority is "truth" - what is - rather than any organization, doctrine or creed. So I do not always come to the same conclusions about what things mean that "traditional Adventists" might come to. I try to follow wherever God leads - and sometimes that puts me at odds with the established structures. But I find myself in good company there - Jesus found himself at odds with the established structures of his time. "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Or so it seems to me.

Mark

 

[RND]

Welcome Mark! Very glad you're here.

You know Mark I'm just trying to understand what type of spirit would indict such a wonderful group of people that is HS.com and attempt to question the motives of the people behind the GNT. This all reminds me frankly of the hubbub caused in Portland regarding the painting of Lars Justinen. I guess I just never thought that the willingness to investigate God's character through the actions and demonstration of His Son would cause such an uproar.

Glad you are here and I'm looking forward to your insight Mark.

 

[TrustAndObey]

[move][sign]Am I invisible again?[/sign][/move]

Hi,

Mark here from HeavenlySanctuary. Since Xenon was kind enough to visit HeavenlySanctuary.com and directly ask if the things he was being told were true, I thought it would only be right for me to return the favor and join your discussion here so that others can decide for themselves whether I am Satan's representative or not.

You'll need to answer a few questions before we can decide this for ourselves.

First one...do you now, or have you ever, owned stock in Disney? According to the radio program I listened to this morning, that is one of the more obvious signs of allegiance to the devil.

My thanks to RND and Cheri for being protective of my reputation and that of HeavenlySanctuary, for Xenon for checking things out personally, and to Redogs for honestly stating his concerns.

I want to be sure to be clear that I am only representing my personal viewpoint - I am not acting as an "official spokesman" for anyone. That being said, I believe that I am not too far off from the rest of the HS.com team and the general consesus on the forums there.

I should also note that while the HS.com forum tries very hard to keep the tone safe and genial, we do allow a WIDE range of viewpoints. So something plucked off a post by an individual on the forum may not at all represent HS or the GNT.

I must also confess that the ads that keep trying to pop up on my browser are more than a little annoying. But I guess I'll get over it!

Given the title of your forum "Traditional Adventists - The form for Adventist members" I should give full disclosure. I'm 3rd generation Adventist and believe that the Adventist church was raised to give a "finishing message" to the world. But I also was trained to think for myself and believe that the ultimate authority is "truth" - what is - rather than any organization, doctrine or creed. So I do not always come to the same conclusions about what things mean that "traditional Adventists" might come to. I try to follow wherever God leads - and sometimes that puts me at odds with the established structures. But I find myself in good company there - Jesus found himself at odds with the established structures of his time. "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Or so it seems to me.

Mark

Mark, it is nice to meet you. I'm starting back to college tomorrow and when I'm in classes, I'm not able to come here, but I do try to pop in from time to time.

I have some sincere questions for you, if you don't care.

Do you think having people disagree with you is a surefire way of making sure you're in the "know" as far as truth goes, or do you think sometimes people can disagree with you simply because you're wrong?

~Lainie

 

[MrBadger42]

Welcome Mark! Very glad you're here.

You know Mark I'm just trying to understand what type of spirit would indict such a wonderful group of people that is HS.com and attempt to question the motives of the people behind the GNT.

Oh, I think that most of it is driven by simple fear. Fear seems to be the most obvious and immediate effect of our fall into evil. What were the first words spoken by Adam after the fall? "We heard your voice in the garden and we were afraid!" We all live in fear to some extent. Anything unexpected seems to be a cause to fear it. I wonder what that says about our trust in our Father???

This all reminds me frankly of the hubbub caused in Portland regarding the painting of Lars Justinen. I guess I just never thought that the willingness to investigate God's character through the actions and demonstration of His Son would cause such an uproar.

Yeah, that was quite remarkable. I find it puzzling that many seem to be uncomfortable with God's love and grace. It's like it's just too good to be true that the God of the Universe would love them and treat them so well and so they look for a down side somehow. The thing is, I think God is willing to say to people who are afraid of him "It's OK, if you are more comfrotable with my Son then I'm OK with that. We're the same anyway so it doesn't make any difference who you go to. You're still talking to me."

Mark

P.S. Ok, these pop up adds are starting to interfere with my religious experince! Is it the policy of this web site to hold people hostage for a donation to make the ads go away? If so you won't seem much of me here.

 

[MrBadger42]

[move][sign]Am I invisible again?[/sign][/move]

You'll need to answer a few questions before we can decide this for ourselves.

First one...do you now, or have you ever, owned stock in Disney? According to the radio program I listened to this morning, that is one of the more obvious signs of allegiance to the devil.

Presuming this is tongue in cheek - "No, but I've watched some of their movies. Does that count?

I have some sincere questions for you, if you don't care.

Do you think having people disagree with you is a surefire way of making sure you're in the "know" as far as truth goes, or do you think sometimes people can disagree with you simply because you're wrong?

In other words "Am I taking saying things just to gain 'fame and fortune' and get recognition"? You've got to be kidding.

But to directly answer your question: "No!" A lifetime of study and dialogue has lead me to believe in my heart-of-hearts that the essential nature of God is one of love, graciousness, compassion - that he wants nothing more than the freedom, happiness and love of his creatures. I believe that the "Great Controversy" is over this very question "What is God really like?" and that the false charges of Satan made against God, that God is harsh, arbitrary, exacting, vengeful, unforgiving and severe are the reason that God has had to let sin play out, and are the motivation behind all of revelation - God is revealing himself to mankind and to the onlooking universe as the very opposite of Satan's picture of him.

This is not a "position" I take, or a posturing for some other reason. It is what I believe in my innermost self. It is the thing that gives meaning to my existance and to my understanding of our place in the world and in the universe. This is what it is all about!

Mark

 

[livingtemple]

Xenon,


Just by going to Hs.com to explore for yourself shows you think for yourself and don't just buy the hype. As far as critics go? Everyone has them and HS.com is no exception.

Peace All Ways,

Stacie

 

[Man-ofGod]

Hi,

Mark here from HeavenlySanctuary. Since Xenon was kind enough to visit HeavenlySanctuary.com and directly ask if the things he was being told were true, I thought it would only be right for me to return the favor and join your discussion here so that others can decide for themselves whether I am Satan's representative or not.

My thanks to RND and Cheri for being protective of my reputation and that of HeavenlySanctuary, for Xenon for checking things out personally, and to Redogs for honestly stating his concerns.

I want to be sure to be clear that I am only representing my personal viewpoint - I am not acting as an "official spokesman" for anyone. That being said, I believe that I am not too far off from the rest of the HS.com team and the general consesus on the forums there.

I should also note that while the HS.com forum tries very hard to keep the tone safe and genial, we do allow a WIDE range of viewpoints. So something plucked off a post by an individual on the forum may not at all represent HS or the GNT.

I must also confess that the ads that keep trying to pop up on my browser are more than a little annoying. But I guess I'll get over it!

Given the title of your forum "Traditional Adventists - The form for Adventist members" I should give full disclosure. I'm 3rd generation Adventist and believe that the Adventist church was raised to give a "finishing message" to the world. But I also was trained to think for myself and believe that the ultimate authority is "truth" - what is - rather than any organization, doctrine or creed. So I do not always come to the same conclusions about what things mean that "traditional Adventists" might come to. I try to follow wherever God leads - and sometimes that puts me at odds with the established structures. But I find myself in good company there - Jesus found himself at odds with the established structures of his time. "You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

Or so it seems to me.

Mark

Mark,

This would be my first time weighing into this topic. I appreciate you coming here to share your thoughts. You mentioned that you feel the ultimate authority is "truth". So based on this, I have one question to ask you. As stupid as this question may sound, I think it is equally important to address. I hope you do not take any offense (and I am sure you will not). What do you define "truth" to be? Thanks in advance.

 

[RND]

That's funny but somehow I know what Mark is gonna say......

 

[Man-ofGod]

P.S. Ok, these pop up adds are starting to interfere with my religious experince! Is it the policy of this web site to hold people hostage for a donation to make the ads go away? If so you won't seem much of me here.

If you do not have it already, try using http://www.firefox.com as your browser. It has the best built in pop up blockers that I know;-) If you are already using it, Tools>Content> Block Pop-up windows. Hope that helps.

 

[MrBadger42]

Mark,
What do you define "truth" to be? Thanks in advance.

Ah, Pilate's famous question! Jesus declined to answer it, so I don't know if I'm stepping out of bounds but...

Actually I put my answer to your question right after my statement of what I give ultimate authority to:

... and believe that the ultimate authority is "truth" - what is - ...

What I mean by that is that "truth" is simply "reality", things as they actually are (as opposed to how we perceive them), the way God made the universe and all its creatures operate. Thus God "is truth." Satan, on the other hand, is the "father of lies" - unreality, what is not.

Oh, and thanks for the hint on FireFox. But I already use it. It may just be chance, but as soon as I registered for this web site I started getting all sorts of browser windows and tabs trying to open - even when the browser was down. It took me the better part of the day and some hard earned cash to get rid of the adware. (StopZilla seems to have done the trick.)

Mark