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The Constantine Effect

judechild

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There have been a few scattered discussions on various threads about whether or not Constantine had profound effects on the Church of his time. This thread is for a discussion of that effect. Please post what you believe Constantine's role was in shaping Church history. Please also provide sources (preferably original to his time-period) to support that.
 

cyberlizard

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constantine gets the blame for quite a lot, however, the people voted. In this respect constantine (and his sons) are not entirely to blame. What is to blame to a great degree though is the church making allegiences with the political world.


Steve
 
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marlowe007

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Many modern writers (both anti-Christians like Edward Gibbon and pro-Christians like Leo Tolstoy) have argued, at least partly from ideological reasons of their own, that the early Christian church was thoroughly pacifistic and that only in the post-Constantine era was this attitude given up, as a result of Christian compromise with worldly powers. But the most ardent pacifist Christians were found within the Gnostic sects - those who refused to give the Old Testament its place in the Christian worldview. Indeed, without Constantine, Gnosticism would be the predominant brand of Christianity today. In reality, the "orthodox" RC Christianity was a secondary sect in the Mediterranean that only became dominant after the conversion of Constantine* gave it the advantage of Roman swords.

*Incidentally, Constantine was not even a catechumen at the time of Nicaea, and according to Isidore of Seville, may even have converted to Arianism in later life.
 
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luckyfredsdad

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According to Eusebius, did not the Emperor lavish presents and power [Authority] on to the leadership of the Catholic Church?

Did not various popes, seek authority from the Emperor? S.Leo for one! Did not various Emperors accede to requests from the Bishop of Rome for permission to use the authority of the state to persecute Rome's opponents? Did not various Emperors, Valentinian, Father and son, Gratian amongst others, including Eastern Emperors accede to these requests
 
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judechild

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According to Eusebius, did not the Emperor lavish presents and power [Authority] on to the leadership of the Catholic Church?

Did not various popes, seek authority from the Emperor? S.Leo for one! Did not various Emperors accede to requests from the Bishop of Rome for permission to use the authority of the state to persecute Rome's opponents? Did not various Emperors, Valentinian, Father and son, Gratian amongst others, including Eastern Emperors accede to these requests

To all the questions you've presented I can only say "I don't know". If you could please post the source of your information, sir, I should like to discuss the possibility.
 
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judechild

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the did not call it the holy roman empire for nothing. the word empire denotes political world.

prior to nicea the church was divided, after nicea the church was still divided.


Steve

Thank you sir. If you would, please look at these excerpts from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

Roman Empire (ancient state [27 BC-476 AD]) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Roman Empire: "The West was severely shaken in 410, when the city of Rome was sacked by the Visigoths, a wandering nation of Germanic peoples from the northeast. The fall of Rome was completed in 476, when the German chieftain Odoacer deposed the last Roman emperor of the West, Romulus Augustulus."

Holy Roman Empire (historical empire, Europe) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Holy Roman Empire: "Traditionally believed to have been established by Charlemagne, who was crowned emperor by Pope Leo III in 800, the empire lasted until the renunciation of the imperial title by Francis II in 1806."

The "Holy Roman Empire", as you can see, is not the same political force as the Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was germanic in origin. It has no connection to Constantine, or to early Christianity.

Please explain how the Church was divided, and how the sitting government of the time affected it.
 
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judechild

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Many modern writers (both anti-Christians like Edward Gibbon and pro-Christians like Leo Tolstoy) have argued, at least partly from ideological reasons of their own, that the early Christian church was thoroughly pacifistic and that only in the post-Constantine era was this attitude given up, as a result of Christian compromise with worldly powers. But the most ardent pacifist Christians were found within the Gnostic sects - those who refused to give the Old Testament its place in the Christian worldview. Indeed, without Constantine, Gnosticism would be the predominant brand of Christianity today. In reality, the "orthodox" RC Christianity was a secondary sect in the Mediterranean that only became dominant after the conversion of Constantine* gave it the advantage of Roman swords.

This is interesting. Is everything you've posted here to be found in the writings of Gibbon and Tolstoy? If so, which writings? And would it be possible to post them without interfering with copyright?
 
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HumbleMan

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True faith is strengthened under stress. When Constatine made Christianity the state religion, the Church became complacent. There was no more reason to cry out to God when you could practice your religion in total peace. Constatine also wedded the Church to politics, encouraging an accumilation of power and secrecy.
 
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judechild

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True faith is strengthened under stress. When Constatine made Christianity the state religion, the Church became complacent.

I would like to point out that Constantine did not make Christianity the state religion, merely legalized its practice:

The "Edict of Milan " (313 A. D.)

"When I, Constantine Augustus, as well as I Licinius Augustus d fortunately met near Mediolanurn (Milan), and were considering everything that pertained to the public welfare and security, we thought -, among other things which we saw would be for the good of many, those regulations pertaining to the reverence of the Divinity ought certainly to be made first, so that we might grant to the Christians and others full authority to observe that religion which each preferred; whence any Divinity whatsoever in the seat of the heavens may be propitious and kindly disposed to us and all who are placed under our rule And thus by this wholesome counsel and most upright provision we thought to arrange that no one whatsoever should be denied the opportunity to give his heart to the observance of the Christian religion, of that religion which he should think best for himself, so that the Supreme Deity, to whose worship we freely yield our hearts) may show in all things His usual favor and benevolence. Therefore, your Worship should know that it has pleased us to remove all conditions whatsoever, which were in the rescripts formerly given to you officially, concerning the Christians and now any one of these who wishes to observe Christian religion may do so freely and openly, without molestation. We thought it fit to commend these things most fully to your care that you may know that we have given to those Christians free and unrestricted opportunity of religious worship. When you see that this has been granted to them by us, your Worship will know that we have also conceded to other religions the right of open and free observance of their worship for the sake of the peace of our times, that each one may have the free opportunity to worship as he pleases ; this regulation is made we that we may not seem to detract from any dignity or any religion.
Moreover, in the case of the Christians especially we esteemed it best to order that if it happems anyone heretofore has bought from our treasury from anyone whatsoever, those places where they were previously accustomed to assemble, concerning which a certain decree had been made and a letter sent to you officially, the same shall be restored to the Christians without payment or any claim of recompense and without any kind of fraud or deception, Those, moreover, who have obtained the same by gift, are likewise to return them at once to the Christians. Besides, both those who have purchased and those who have secured them by gift, are to appeal to the vicar if they seek any recompense from our bounty, that they may be cared for through our clemency,. All this property ought to be delivered at once to the community of the Christians through your intercession, and without delay. And since these Christians are known to have possessed not only those places in which they were accustomed to assemble, but also other property, namely the churches, belonging to them as a corporation and not as individuals, all these things which we have included under the above law, you will order to be restored, without any hesitation or controversy at all, to these Christians, that is to say to the corporations and their conventicles: providing, of course, that the above arrangements be followed so that those who return the same without payment, as we have said, may hope for an indemnity from our bounty. In all these circumstances you ought to tender your most efficacious intervention to the community of the Christians, that our command may be carried into effect as quickly as possible, whereby, moreover, through our clemency, public order may be secured. Let this be done so that, as we have said above, Divine favor towards us, which, under the most important circumstances we have already experienced, may, for all time, preserve and prosper our successes together with the good of the state. Moreover, in order that the statement of this decree of our good will may come to the notice of all, this rescript, published by your decree, shall be announced everywhere and brought to the knowledge of all, so that the decree of this, our benevolence, cannot be concealed."
Medieval Sourcebook: Galerius and Constantine: Edicts of Toleration 311/313: (also contains the "Edict of Toleration"; pronounced two years earlier by Galerus).
 
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beardedone

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There is evidence that the legalization of Christianity gave rise to Christians having power. There are sources that show that prior to the Edict of Milan one would be hard pressed to find a Church Father that justified Christians participating in acts of violence--however, post-Edict of Milan one is hard pressed to find Church Fathers that did not try to justify Christians participating in acts of violence. I actually wrote a paper on the topic for a class I took last summer. If anyone is interested in reading it just PM me and I will send it to you.

I think it is hard to deny that the move from being the persecuted to not being persecuted changed Christianity. In most cases throughout history when a persecuted group gains any form of power they tend to become the persecutors.
 
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judechild

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There is evidence that the legalization of Christianity gave rise to Christians having power.

If there is evidence and sources please post them about his, and the claim in your second paragraph. Please, what does "Christians having power" mean? If you mean the possiblility of Christians to hold political office, that seems to me to be fairly obvious, but I'm afraid I don't see the point. If you want to PM me your paper please do.

I think it is hard to deny that the move from being the persecuted to not being persecuted changed Christianity. In most cases throughout history when a persecuted group gains any form of power they tend to become the persecutors.

Okay, we can work with this. Do you then say that the changes in Christianity were primarily in behavior, or in docrine? How, do you claim, Christianity changed?
 
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beardedone

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I would say initially that the changes were in behavior and that that behavior may have influenced doctrine. It is hard to say whether doctrine really changed or not because prior to the EofM the debates that were resolved in later councils had not happened yet--or at least to the extent that they occurred in the later centuries that led to the councils. However, I do wonder what Christianity would look like today if the State had not called for certain councils. And I'll PM you the paper which will have the list of my sources.
 
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beardedone

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I just realized I didn't answer your question about what Christians having power meant. Essentially I was pointing to the fact that Christians went from being persecuted to being persecutors. They also held sway over emperors which then, in a way, gave them the power that the emperor had. I apologize for not providing a laundry list of sources, but I have read too many books on Church History to be able to figure out which ones mentioned the things I'm talking about (this comes from being a Church History student). However, I will recommend Justo Gonzalez's Church History books (not exactly sure of the titles, don't have the books in front of me).
 
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Anglian

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Interesting discussion on a good question.

Constantine, as others have pointed out, made Christianity legal; not compulsory; it was Theodosius in 381 who did the latter.

In so far as it stopped the persecutions to which the Church had been subject, Constantine performed a righteous act. Both Eusebius and Sozomen note how many of the Fathers gathered at Nicaea in 325 bore the marks of the tortures which had been inflicted upon them. Being a member of a Church which is still being persecuted (by Islam), I can vouch that it is better not being spat at or having stones thrown at you.

Constantine's actions resulted in a second capital being established, and many of the evils people here think were the result of Rome were nothing of the sort. It was at Constantinople that the alliance between emperor and patriarch was at its closest; it was the emperor in Constaninople who summoned the Councils at Nicaea, Ephesus and Chalcedon - not the Pope in Rome.

We should not exaggerate the influence of the emperors, however. Although under one of Constantine's sons the world (as St. Jerome put it) groaned to find itself Arian, the people remained attached to the true teaching, and, as the case of St. Athanasius shows, the power of the emperor could not prevail against the piety of the people. It was his own congregation which protected the blessed saint when the soldiers of the emperor came to kill him, and it was the Pope in Rome who sheltered him from the wrath of the emperor.

The relationship between the State and the Church is an interesting topic, and in Constantinople between Nicaea and 1453 was even stronger than it was in the West (where the Pope had to deal with a variety of kings and emperors, including, after 800, one calling himself the Holy Roman Emperor). Western Christians of the Reformed Tradition ought to remember that without the support and protection of German Princes, Luther would have been arrested and carted away to the Inquisition.

The State, like all constructs of men, can be a force for good or for ill; it may be better when the Faith has some influence on its activities; but the danger has always been that the influence works the other way.

peace,

Anglian
 
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Thekla

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The Church and state in the east often had a strained relationship. St. John the Chrysostom, for example, was repeatedly exiled over the course of his term as patriarch.

It was the role of the state to protect its citizens, including the Church. According to my son (a history nut :)), the eastern Empire is peculiar as it (comparatively) rarely initiated wars of aggression, preferring to concern itself with defensive action as needed and an extensive program of diplomacy to ward off potential threats. Thus, it was not needed by the Church to concern itself with making war. The eastern Church never developed a "just war" theory; war was always evil, though defensive war was considered a "necessary evil". The deleterious spiritual effect on the participants in war was recognized (St. Basil the Great recommended three years without communion as a period of spiritual preparation for soldiers.)

In the role of 'protector of the citizenry', the Empire developed an extensive program of social supports - this encouraged by the Church and often administrated by the Church. Thus, complete care til adulthood (shelter, clothing, food, education) was provided for children who were orphaned; this program was also used as a means to encourage mothers not to abort or expose their unwanted children. Homes were set up for women leaving prostitution; some of these women later married and were re-integrated into society, and others became monastics. Elder care was provided for working families so that elderly family members would be properly attended during the absence of caretakers. Free hostels were provided for the poor and travelers. Medical care was free for those who could not afford it. The disabled were likewise cared for. The hosteled able bodied indigent and poor were assisted by an office whose only concern was to assist them to find work. To assist the poor and the underemployed, aprox. 80,000 loaves of free bread were distributed daily.

Following the tolerance for Christianity by the state, monasticism flourished and provided a counterbalance to the easier life and potential risk of complacency now experienced by many Christians. Monasteries continue to play a central role for the laity of the east as places of prayer and encouragement in the spiritual struggle. It has traditionally been the monastics who have provided a voice and a check on the temptation to compromise with the 'world'.

The emblem of the state was a two-headed eagle; a visual expression of the distinction between empire and Church. I am unsure of the basis for the claim that the relationship between Church and Empire was "close"; it was certainly not consistently so. Granted, the eastern emperor did sometimes fulfill requests by some in the Church. And the social programs were encouraged by the Church as well -- this is repeatedly attested in the homilies of St. John Chrysostom and others (St. Basil, etc.) -- there are also ample examples of homilies which denounce the actions of emperors and empresses. But to say that such a strained relationship was 'close', the the two-headed eagle was singly headed, is inaccurate.
 
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Thekla

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True faith is strengthened under stress. When Constatine made Christianity the state religion, the Church became complacent. There was no more reason to cry out to God when you could practice your religion in total peace. Constatine also wedded the Church to politics, encouraging an accumilation of power and secrecy.

Constantine personally funded the first mass production of Bibles (in excess of 300 iirc, quite an undertaking).
 
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Christos Anesti

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True faith is strengthened under stress.

You make a good point. I don't think it's correct to say that persecutions ended with St Constantine however. Persecutions have been with the Church throughout it's history. Look at how many times the emperors turned against the Orthodox and supported Arians or other heretics. Heck, at times the same emperor would support the Orthodox and then later turn against them and exile (or kill) some of the Orthodox Bishops. Look at the persecution of the Church under the Turkish yoke and under communism too. etc..
 
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